Organization Heartless.
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It's debatable whether or not Sora's sentience really did remain, since he was in the process of losing his memories. I'm more inclined to think he was led to Kairi out of pure instinct of the heart, but I digress. The point is that Sora could create a humanoid Nobody and a weak heartless only because of the Heart Unlocker.
Well, XH wasn't even a natural Heartless to begin with; his sentience could probably be explained by some other factor of his.
and that's my point; Sora's the only case where strong Heartless =/= strong Nobody.
But you also got to remember he didnt get his heart removed by any experiments nor emblem heartless. Org lost their hearts in the experiments with hearts so just like Terranort's heartless had a emblem im assuming they all did, and every heartless boss we've faught so far has had that emblem correct me if im wrong.
XH's emblem was just for looks; he wasn't an emblem Heartless.
Pretty sure the emblems just mean that the heartless were 'made'.
The player controlled him while he was a Somebody, and the player controlled him while he was a shadow, so I don't understand why you think his sentience didn't remain.
Where did you get this from?
No. We are told in-game that hearts that willingly give themselves over to the darkness retain their sentience.
Heartless do not think. Heartless have no ambitions. Ansem, Seeker of Darkness methodically planned and had ambition, proving that he has sentience. Sora, while perhaps not planning anything, had the drive to see his friends as he did throughout the entire game. He had the ambition/drive to find them and will to be with them.
As I said above, the player controlled Sora before he lost his heart and after he became a shadow. Nothing happened during that time other than the character going after his friends, so why not just have that part be one big cutscene? The obvious answer is that the writers were trying to show to the audience that the shadow retained thought.
What are you talking about? We are given two cases that we know their Somebody, Heartless, and Nobody: Apprentice Xehanort and Sora.
Sora produced a shadow. We do not know for certain what AX originally produced.
Sora produced a humanoid Nobody. AX produced a humanoid Nobody.
We are shown that it is possible for a Heartless to obtain its Somebody's form, so I don't see how you think that we Sora is "the only case where" a strong Nobody is not met with a strong Heartless.
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Their Heartless did went to RoD but don't know in what kind of heartless.
But it will be a strong one.
If he did have a sentience, he would've remembered his time as a Heartless; all he did during the time was forget, up until the point where he found Kairi.
It's what the Heart Unlocker does; open up hearts to darkness.
Opening up your Heart to darkness isn't quite the same as letting darkness overtake you, which is what the Org. did since they didn't have the convenience of the Heart Unlocker. IIRC, they walked into the heart of RG.
Mind pointing me in the right direction? I've read it before myself, but I can't recall where. Still, it may have just been a temporary placeholder explanation, assuming Sora didn't have a sentience.
Are we still talking about Heartless Sora? If so...
Ambition =/= Mind
The Heartless have the ambition to attack the keyblade wielder, yet we can both agree they don't have minds.
It may have been an example of Sora "following his light" out of pure instinct.
XH is definitely a Heartless since Xemnas was created.
I'm not sure what you mean here...Are you saying Sora's a strong Heartless because he was strong as a floating heart?
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This is the statement where it becomes shaky...to create a humanoid nobody the only requirement is to have a (very) strong heart, how strong the darkness inside that heart may be is irrelevant.
This is actually what divides heartless and nobody strength.
The more darkness a heart has, the stronger and more beastly the heartless produced, yet for Nobodies the overall strength of the heart is the focal point, the stronger the heart, the more humanlike the nobody is, with the completely human nobodies indicating the strongest hearts.
If a heart succumbs to its own darkness a heartless is created and the magnitude of strength of that darkness determines the form of the heartless.
People who have little darkness like Sora, Ventus or Goofy, for example, would produce a lowly shadow because of the small amount of darkness, yet if the heart is a strong one a nobody may be created.
Ansem's apprentices had probably much more darkness in their hearts and therefore became stronger heartless, maybe a darkball, a neo-shadow, an Invisible or even a darkside.
Yet still, i.e. Ienzo may have lost his heart and because it was so strong he created a nobody, yet that doesn't mean he'll automatically produce a real unique or big heartless. If his own darkness was mediocre he may have produced just a neo-shadow or something akin.
Apprentice Xehanort however and therefore Ansem SoD are still another special case we don't yet know the entire story of.
acctully ventus had no darkness in him because it was taken out of his heart. so he wouldnt have produced a heartless, he was like a prince of heart with 7 princess's XD what a life and player XD jk jk
That doesn't sound right though, unless you're trying to tell me the Beast has a fkton of darkness in him. Consider that Xaldin kept trying to get the Beast to turn in to a Heartless, mentioning the strength of his heart will surely make it a powerful one.
This however is not Ventus's natural state, and Ventus DID have at least a little darkness or there would have been nothing Vanitas could have been created from.
Depending on what really happened to Vanitas after the x-blade was destroyed he could very well again "re-attached" to Ven and therefore his heart be complete again.
But that's not the point here, I was giving examples for people who naturally have very little darkness and therefore if overcome by it would turn into small heartless like shadows.
Swordsaint said:
It was explained that way in the games themselves, and besides, the beast clearly does have more darkness in his heart than i.e. Sora, Goofy, Aqua and Ventus do. Probably around the same level Riku has.
Remember that darkness does not equal evil, while light similarly doesn't equal good, the intentions of the person and how the person deals with his/her own darkness makes the difference.
Also, regarding Xaldin, he wanted to turn beast into a heartless because he saw that the beast had a strong heart which would likely form a nodody.
Xaldin actually mainly wanted the beast's nobody, and the strength of a nobody is solely dictated by the overall strength of heart.
And no one can deny the strength of the beast's heart, as he managed to survive the destruction of his world, travel the corridors of darkness and make it to Hollow Bastion safely in KH 1.
He did remember. He was a Heart when he was in Chain of Memories, and both the castle and Namine were messing with his memories.
That is what I said, yes. Sora's heart was opened up to the darkness. It wasn't weakened to the point that it was consumed by the darkness.
How does this mean that the Heart Unlocker is the cause of Sora's Heartless being a shadow?
It took me a while to tell what you were trying to say, and I still don't get what "IIRC" means.
The Secret Ansem Reports.
Ambition comes from the mind. Where else could it come from?
They do what they are told, and they attack the keyblade wielder out of fear for their lives.
Leon explained that the Heartless will come after Sora because he wields the keyblade, which he says is their greatest weakness or something like that. What I am saying is that you are mistaking the will to survive (something that all animals and plants have) with ambition (something only sentient or intelligent creatures have, like humans [Let's not get into whether or not non-human creatures have sentience, as dolphins have intelligence similar to humans and rats are arguably more intelligent than humans. Either way, a fewer number of creatures have the capacity for ambition which is ruled by either sentience or intelligence.]).
Then there would be no point in the player controlling him.
We are given cutscenes for some battles in one version of a game, and we are allowed to fight said battles in another version of the same game. If they wanted us to believe that the playing of the shadow was unimportant, then they would have changed it.
No. We know beyond a reasonable doubt that AX created a Heartless and a Nobody. We do not know beyond a reasonable doubt that his Heartless was the same shape and form that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness was. That is what I meant, not that we don't know if he was a Heartless or not.
No.
I said, "We are shown that it is possible for a Heartless to obtain its Somebody's form," as in, "The shadow Heartless of Sora was given its original shape by a Princess of Light. We are shown this." And then I said, "so I don't see how you think that Sora is 'the only case where' a strong Nobody is not met with a strong Heartless," as in, "I don't understand why you think Sora is the only case where a strong Nobody is met with a weak Heartless."
He had memories as a floating heart, but not as a Heartless. He started to remember things right after Kairi freed him.
Agreed.
What I meant was that Sora opened up his heart to darkness, whereas the Org. didn't. If anyone could open up their heart to darkness without the use of the Heart Unlocker, there'd be very little point to it in the first place.
My bad; it means, "if I recall correctly."
Ah, thank you then. I'm still skeptical about its validity, though.
I see it more as "listening to your heart, even when your mind says otherwise."
It tells us and emphasizes that Sora became a Heartless. That, and considering the previous scenes, that would have been a VERY long cutscene.
I don't see how he could've been anything else other than what he was.
...I'm sorry, but I can't find the correlation between the two points. >_<
I don't see how Heartless obtaining form has to do with the process that got them there in the first place. That being said, I think Sora is the only case where strong Nobody =/= strong Heartless because he used the cheat option of the Heart Unlocker...Everyone else had to do it the hard way.
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Ventus having little darkness, how he able to create a pure darkness? xD
If Vanitas was re-absorbed by Ven, will the amount of darkness weaker or balanced?
It wasn't Ven who created the "pure" darkness, it was Master Xehanort. He took the darkness Ven had out of his heart, and since this darkness had no counterpart light (this counterpart light still remained in Ven's heart), it was pure.
That no one knows, however the amount of darkness is not that important, since even before Vanitas was created, Ventus always refused/denied to use his darkness the way MX wanted.
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A strong nobody doesn't indicate a strong heartless at all, as both ways are possible anyways.
1. If a weak heart with much darkness gets consumed we get a strong heartless and no nobody.
2. If a mediocre heart with much darkness gets consumed we get a strong heartless and maybe a weak nobody
3. If a strong heart with much darkness gets consumed we get a strong heartless and maybe a strong nobody (possibly a human shaped one)
4. If a weak heart with little darkness gets consumed we get a weak heartless and no nobody.
5. If a mediocre heart with little darkness gets consumed we get a weak heartless and maybe a weak nobody.
6. If a strong heart with little darkness gets consumed we get a weak heartless and maybe a strong nobody (possibly a human shaped one).
You see there are multiple ways, as the amount of darkness dictates the strength of the heartless and the overall strength of the entire heart dictates the strength of the nobody (if one is formed, which is not always the case).
So, going by this Apprentice Xehanort would be a Case 3, Sora a Case 6.
The other apprentices can be either Case 3 or Case 6, yet Case 3 seems more plausible as they were experimenting with darkness.
I think you're right with this one, actually. It took me so long to remember 'cause you kept calling it a "floating heart", when you were referring to the time after Kairi freed him from being a shadow.
The only people we know for sure that opened their hearts up to darkness willingly (to the point that they were consumed by it) are Sora and Apprentice Xehanort. (Well, there's also Scar, but that was never mentioned again
.) What I'm trying to get at is that we don't know whether or not the Organization members willingly opened up their hearts.Xehanort did, though.
The Keyblade of People's Hearts is created from the hearts of the seven Princesses of Heart. As far as a "point" goes, I can only speculate that it is meant to keep people's hearts from or in darkness. I doubt its "point" is to unlock hearts.
Ah.
They could have lost their hearts, then walked into their world's heart in an attempt to leave it, or they could have walked into their world's heart in an attempt to leave it, then lost their hearts sometimes later. We're never told when or how exactly they lost their hearts, but we are told/shown that they lost their hearts.
If Apprentice Xehanort is a fool, then we can't trust the validity of the Ansem Reports.
If Ansem, the Wise is a fool, then we can't trust the validity of the Secret Ansem Reports.
If Master Xehanort is a fool, then we can't trust the validity of the Xehanort Reports.
At the end of the day, the only things we are given to explain the Heartless, hearts, Nobodies, and the worlds are these reports, and we have to trust that the writer(s) used the reports as a way to tell the players accurate information.
Ambition is the drive to do something/accomplish a goal, not doing what your emotions tell you to instead of what logic says to do.
The cutscene could be presented in pieces. Mini time skips. It isn't unprecedented.
So you don't see how Sora could change from a shadow to his original shape? We are shown that it is possible for a Heartless to change shape, which means "[they can be] anything else other than what [they are]."
Perhaps there is little connection between the two points. Especially since there was one point and a question.
The point:
-Heartless can retain their original shape
And I asked you why you thought that Sora turning into a shadow meant that strong Nobodies create strong Heartless. We are told that a strong Nobody requires a strong heart, but we're never told why stronger and weaker Heartless appear. For all we know, strong Heartless (bosses) are created by many hearts becoming one.
You are saying that strong Heartless come into being at the same time that strong Nobodies are created, and that the strength of the Heartless is the same as the strength of the Nobodies.
We're never told that. In fact, we are shown the opposite with Sora. Just because the Keyblade of People's Hearts allowed his heart to be consumed by darkness does not mean that the Keyblade of People's Hearts effects the Heartless created.
Sephiroth0812 said:
I'm sorry, but where did you get this information? Is it fanon or is it canon?
That's sadly completely wrong, there's not one evidence which can lead to that assumption.
Nobodies can retain human shape, not heartless.
Ansem SoD doesn't count because he's an even more special case than Sora.
There's even a hint Ansem SoD isn't a heartless at all.
See Ansem Report 12 for this.
Yes we are told the reasons of stronger and weaker heartless, the more darkness a heart has, the stronger the heartless is.
Many hearts becoming one would be a Kingdom Hearts, Heartless bosses are just hearts with exceptionally much darkness.
Where did you get that part of many hearts becoming one in a heartless?
One heartless spawns from one heart, that's how it is.
The keyblade of People's hearts unlocks any lock and any heart, this in most cases causes the heart to being overtaken by its own darkness.
Not the KoPH decides/affects the created heartless, but how strong the darkness inside that heart is.
Now for real, what makes you think I would post fanon stuff in a discussion over a theory regarding canon stuff?
The nobody bit was actually in a secret Ansem Report:
Secret Ansem Report 7 said:
While the one about the amount of darkness in the heart was already established long ago when the question came up why Sora turned only into a lowly shadow.
As the site which normally holds the Nomura-interviews is still down I can't actually look up which one it was, but it certainly was an older one.
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