On LS, Sleep, Xemnas, and MF

[Theart]

He said nothing like that. He made no comment on the fight actually happening, just that the character seemed to be someone involved with the story.

What he actually said:

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up! ^_^ Though I'm admittedly rather troubled by my growing amount of misinterpreting/incorrect memory... >>; Especially since I'm only 17. *shot*

@Grass: Now, 'No Name' wants to destroy himself by preventing the whole Xehanort possession ordeal, right? So this dude IS a good guy/neutral but has personal agenda? ^_^

 

[chasespicer056]

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up! ^_^ Though I'm admittedly rather troubled by my growing amount of misinterpreting/incorrect memory... >>; Especially since I'm only 17. *shot*

@Grass: Now, 'No Name' wants to destroy himself by preventing the whole Xehanort possession ordeal, right? So this dude IS a good guy/neutral but has personal agenda? ^_^

To build on Grass's theory, maybe he's not trying to rewrite history. Maybe he's seen a peaceful perfect future, but in order for it to happen, Terra has to get possessed by MX, Aqua has to be stranded in the ROD, and Ven must fall asleep. Perhaps these are necessary tragedies in order to bring about a better future down the road.

As for WHY he fought TAV, I think that canonically he only fought Aqua (LOD was destroyed), and he did so to test her abilities and see if she was ready for a much tougher battle later on.

 

[Zulkir]

To build on Grass's theory, maybe he's not trying to rewrite history. Maybe he's seen a peaceful perfect future, but in order for it to happen, Terra has to get possessed by MX, Aqua has to be stranded in the ROD, and Ven must fall asleep. Perhaps these are necessary tragedies in order to bring about a better future down the road.

As for WHY he fought TAV, I think that canonically he only fought Aqua (LOD was destroyed), and he did so to test her abilities and see if she was ready for a much tougher battle later on.

Well the LoD is destroyed before TAV arrives at the KBGY. The only difference is that LoD is not locked in the U.S version, so all 3 of them are capable of visiting LoD after it is destroyed, only Aqua visits in a cutscene though.

Even if you beat the MF and use that save file for the final episode, she is still "surprised" upon reaching LoD, so I don't know if the fight is canon or not.

I'm sure the Vanitas Remnant is not, "remnant" implies it existed after Vanitas was "destroyed"(remnant=that which "remains"..ect). Vanitas was only "destroyed" AFTER the events of the KBGY, so I'm guessing that while the fight is non-canon, it may serve as a basis for which he may come back in future games.


As for the Unknown...not sure, its existence is definitely canon, there have been no "non-canon" secret bosses so far, they're not going to start putting them in now.

 

[BlackFrozenRose]

This is one amazing detailed theory you have here. and you cover alot of ground, that i pretty much agree with you on, and i'm still basked about it. great work.

 

[HeartSeams]

there have been no "non-canon" secret bosses so far, they're not going to start putting them in now.

-looks at Monstro and Eraqus' Armor-

 

[Allister Rose]

but for you anything that is a new optional boss is a secret boss. which it isn't.


secret bosses are characters that hint the future that we don't know alot about until the next game. Monstro and Eraqus armro are new isntallments to mirage arena, not really similar to MF or VR, though even i think vanitas remnant is a fake secret boss

 

[HeartSeams]

A secret boss is a secret boss, imo.
And Nomura has never gone out of his way to define that there are two types of additional bosses, so, I think I'll just stick with how I see it.

 

[Allister Rose]

don't you think it's alittle too over simplyfied?

a secret boss isn't defined by how it stands as a boss, just how it stands as part of the story.

 

[HeartSeams]

don't you think it's alittle too over simplyfied?

No, i think yours is over complicated.

a secret boss isn't defined by how it stands as a boss, just how it stands as part of the story.

Which is somewhat circular logic. If someone says that they haven't yet made a secret boss that wasn't canon it'd be impossible, because, to you, if it was uncanon, then it wasn't a secret boss.

 

[Allister Rose]

If someone says that they haven't yet made a secret boss that wasn't canon it'd be impossible, because, to you, if it was uncanon, then it wasn't a secret boss.

that's not it, even if all optional bosses were canon, secret bosses will still exist. secret bosses are bosses that their identities and/or relevance in the story is kept secret until future releases. that' what makes them secret bosses

 

[gelandporn]

I'm sure the Vanitas Remnant is not, "remnant" implies it existed after Vanitas was "destroyed"(remnant=that which "remains"..ect). Vanitas was only "destroyed" AFTER the events of the KBGY, so I'm guessing that while the fight is non-canon, it may serve as a basis for which he may come back in future games.

Well, he might, he might not be. It's possible that Aqua could have gone back to the Keyblade Graveyard (in search of Terra), and found Vanitas' Lingering Spirit.
Even if he is canon, though, I'd probably mark him under "canon but totally irrelevant." Kurt Zisa may be canon but has zero impact on the plot.

 

[Relix]

Wow...even in great threads you two argue :/

 

[Zulkir]

-looks at Monstro and Eraqus' Armor-

You don't know what canon is do you? Both of those are.

 

[Theart]

You don't know what canon is do you? Both of those are.

She meant the boss fights in BBS:FM, Zulkir.

 

[Sempied]

You don't know what canon is do you? Both of those are.

How? Eraqus LS fight is almost impossible to say it's "Canon", Monstro being in MA just makes it all the less.

Where would Terra/Ven/Aqua find the time to fight Eraqus LS? Terra heads directly to the keyblade graveyard after he "kills" Eraqus. Ven has no idea what happened to Eraqus after Terra transports him away, and Aqua simply doesn't have the time or place at all, even in the Final Episode.

 

[Ikkin]

Well, first and foremost, he does.
It's right there. Terranort states that his mind resists.

If you disagree with my definition of the mind, that's totally fine. But whatever the "mind" is, LS has it.

I guess my problem is that something that seems an awful lot like Terra's mind is seen talking to Master Xehanort in their combined heart. =/

Besides, is there any reason to believe that he's speaking in technical terms rather than in looser conversational terms?

The idea that Xemnas has the same mind as Terra is a pretty big leap.
Namine does not have the same mind as Kairi, Roxas does not have the same mind as Sora, Xehanort's Heartless does not have the same mind as Xemnas.

These are all cases in which two entities come from one being and yet operate under two separate minds. So while nothing is necessarily "replicated," something comes in to existence to give these beings their own unique identity. And it's not memories, particularly knowing that in Roxas and Namine's cases, they maintained their own identity without memories.

I was proposing that, in the case of Xemnas, he does have his own mind, separate from Terra and MX, but, given the memories he has and the vessel which influences his identity, he operates with the same motives as Terra.

You know what, you're right.

What I should have said is that, if the mind is something that's contained in the soul, Xemnas ought to have it, since he's composed of Terra's body and soul.

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm kind of skeptical that the mind (identity/consciousness?) is something that exists in KH in the same literal sense that the body/heart/soul do. It seems more like it would be something that arises from one or more of the others, with memories being at the very least a huge influence. (Does Organization Roxas have the same mind as Twilight Town Roxas? He's certainly a very different person) I don't know how it could exist separately from those other elements when it's so interconnected.

I mean, all of the cases of two entities that come from one being but have separate "minds" involve two entities with different memories. Namine is not Kairi, because she has had different experiences. Roxas is not Sora, because they have had different experiences. Xemnas is not Xehanort's Heartless because... well, in that case, it's because Xehanort's Heartless is a Heartless - Xemnas certainly seems to consider himself to have the same mind as Apprentice Xehanort, if his conversation with Ansem the Wise is anything to go by.

...none of which, I think, would really affect your theory all that much. It'd just explain where the "new mind" came from.

 

[Allister Rose]

let's just say xemnas is his own mind like all organization 13 and namine, they base their personality on memories, for xemnas it's hard to choose which one he's closer to

 

[HeartSeams]

How? Eraqus LS fight is almost impossible to say it's "Canon", Monstro being in MA just makes it all the less.

Eraqus' Armor is also a fight in the Mirage Arena.

 

[skyfoxx]

You don't know what canon is do you? Both of those are.

No they aren't. They're both fights that take place in the Mirage Arena.
To be honest, I'm starting to think NONE of the secret bosses in BBS are canon. MF can 100% not happen because there's no point in the timeline where it could happen. Terra leaves LoD and immediately goes to Keyblade Graveyard when LoD gets ruined. Ventus never goes back to LoD and even if he did, shouldn't he have a reaction like "HOLY CRAP! MY HOME IS DESTROYED!"? As for Aqua... she doesn't get to LoD until Final Episode. And IMMEDIATELY after getting there, she goes inside and transforms it into castle Oblivion. So the only point for Aqua VS MF to make any sense would be if it took place after Aqua transformed it... wait a minute? No it doesn't. Because then it would be Castle Oblivion and not LoD.

The only fight that could possibly make "some" sense in being canon would be Vanitas Remnant. But even then, I don't think he is mainly because he's just a re-color.

 

[Key to Truth]

No they aren't. They're both fights that take place in the Mirage Arena.
To be honest, I'm starting to think NONE of the secret bosses in BBS are canon. MF can 100% not happen because there's no point in the timeline where it could happen. Terra leaves LoD and immediately goes to Keyblade Graveyard when LoD gets ruined. Ventus never goes back to LoD and even if he did, shouldn't he have a reaction like "HOLY CRAP! MY HOME IS DESTROYED!"? As for Aqua... she doesn't get to LoD until Final Episode. And IMMEDIATELY after getting there, she goes inside and transforms it into castle Oblivion. So the only point for Aqua VS MF to make any sense would be if it took place after Aqua transformed it... wait a minute? No it doesn't. Because then it would be Castle Oblivion and not LoD.

The only fight that could possibly make "some" sense in being canon would be Vanitas Remnant. But even then, I don't think he is mainly because he's just a re-color.

Maybe the battle against MF isn't canon, but the character itself is. We will probably find out who he is in future installments of the series. And yeah... Vanitas is just a recolored Vanitas, it can't be canon, lol.