On LS, Sleep, Xemnas, and MF

[gelandporn]

I only had a few problems with this, first off, in CoM doesnt Riku still use the Soul Eater? He was out of the Dark Realm then, unless he went back in, and was then in the events of Days. So, I'm kinda iffy about that.

I said Rikunort, meaning during KH2. We know he gets it sometime after Land of Dragons, because that's the last time he uses Soul Eater. Given that he uses dark corridors to travel, he definitely revisited the Dark Realm.

Two, if Mickey ends up finding the IKK and it's really Ven's then how is Sora using Ven's in KH II when Mickey is in the picture too? Since they never both really have all their keyblades out (exceptthe end of KH II but Sora's not dual weilding ATM), i guess they could both switch between using Ven's....but that sounds odd.

Good point. Yeah, I suppose it doesn't make much sense.
I mean, it could hypothetically work, but it would imply that Mickey was incapable of using the keyblade at the times that Sora dual wielded.

Eh.
I tacked this theory on at the end (You'll notice how I said "That's it" followed by "Actually..." lol) because it popped into my head while writing the rest. Should have thought it through.
Still works, but just barely.

Then, about Terra's. That would mean that the only reason IMO that Riku got his keyblade was because Sora beat LS, setting Terra's keyblade free and it went to find it's master (Riku since he might have some of Terra's heart in him)

That's assuming that Sora fought Terra in the present time. I really, really, really, really doubt that the LS is still around.

But MF doesn't only use the Orginizations powers, he also uses TAV's. ie: Collision Magnet, Tornado, Megaflare Meteor etc

I wasn't saying that he was using the Organization's powers, just using it as an example of the powers he could have.
If anything, the fact that he can use the same powers as TAV should show you that he's strong enough to be a keyblade wielder.

You also don't really explain why No Name fights TAV at all. If it is really Xemnas' then his mind should be intact, only having a new heart, so wouldn't he still remember them?

Because I don't see how it can be canon.
Obviously we know it would have been impossible for Terra and Ven to fight MF after the destruction of LoD, but even Aqua doesn't make sense. When would she have time? She picks up Ven, goes to LoD, goes directly inside (not like she puts Ven down and explores), creates Castle Oblivion, comes right outside, and immediately leaves.

Even if she were to have returned... uh, well, it's Castle Oblivion now, not Land of Departure. There literally is no time at which she could have fought him.

So I looked at MF as opposed to the fight, which probably never happened.
The important part is that:
- He can time travel
- He may want to harm T/A/V

Why would he want to harm TAV (Well... not Ventus)? Goes back to my other question- why/how would MF change the past?
Perhaps he wants to kill Terra so he won't become Terranort. Or stop Aqua from fighting him so that it won't set forth the discovery of the Heartless and whatnot. Who knows?

But until we find out specifically who he's after (and we can't, since all three fight him in a non-canon setting), yeah.

We just need Renders of MF and Terra, I want to see height comparisons because this guy seems shorter than Terra(and he shouldn't be if you're correct).

Agreed, it's why I was asking for them a couple weeks back.
It does appear MF is shorter than Terra when you look at the height comparison in the scene before they battle. But I think it might be the angle.

I watched a boatload of fights on YT, pausing and unpausing to get a good look at the heights during the battle. Honestly, he looks to be Terra's height.
Obviously not the most practical way of going about it, but eh.

If someone does a height comparison, they ought to compare it to a bunch of models, because it could eliminate a lot of options.
Measure, say, MF next to Terra next to Young Xehanort next to old Xehanort in his Organization cloak next to KH2 Riku next to AtW in the Organization cloak.

 

[Silverslide]

I hear ya.

But do you have anything on the nod MF gives Aqua after their fight?

 

[gelandporn]

I never thought it was a nod. I thought he looked down, like he was sad. He then turns and begins to walk away, not before giving one last glance.

Also, just pointing something out:

—In KHI, the robed man, Ansem the Wise’s apprentice Xehanort’s Heartless (the body of Xehanort’s Heartless before he inhabited Riku’s body), appeared on Destiny Islands. Is this because it was Master Xehanort’s homeworld?
NOMURA: That may be one reason, but if he somehow had some of Terra’s memories, we can consider that it might be because he had laid eyes on Riku previously. In terms of the elements of Terra and Master Xehanort, I think the questions of how their power is related and divided, as well as who has whose memories and heart, will become a key to the story after this one.

—Is that to say that there’s a possibility that within Xehanort’s Heartless, the darkness that sleeps in Riku’s heart, there might remain something of Terra…?
NOMURA: That’s also a riddle connected to the next story, so everyone please use your imagination.

The "next story," we can assume, is KH3D. Now, when he talks about how Terra and MX are divided, I assume he means between Xehanort's Heartless and Xemnas. Kinda hard to do if at least one of them isn't back.

EDIT:
So here's the whole height ordeal.

Definitely looks shorter. But as I said, I think it might just be the angle.

Upon closer inspection in battle:

They appear to be about the same height. Bear in mind that in the first pic, MF is bending his knees more than Terra.

 

[KeybladeCounsel]

Can we really assume that(If Grasss is right) Nomura is really planning to complicate the series to this level? Sure it's complicated enough as is, but through the games, he makes it so that kids 10 and up could understand a sense of it. So if what your saying is right, then God help us, the basic plot of "A regular boy becoming a hero"(As stated by Nomura) is long gone then -_-'.

 

[Sempied]

Can we really assume that(If Grasss is right) Nomura is really planning to complicate the series to this level? Sure it's complicated enough as is, but through the games, he makes it so that kids 10 and up could understand a sense of it. So if what your saying is right, then God help us, the basic plot of "A regular boy becoming a hero"(As stated by Nomura) is long gone then -_-'.

Your acting if BbS is more sunshine, and rainbows than what it really is. BbS is the darkest of KH series. That whole antic/ideal was abolished even in CoM. >_>

 

[kiante]

In reference to how the IKK might be Ven's Keyblade, we know that Vanitas AND Ven were able to use a Keyblade simultaneously. It's possible that Keyblade can simply be used by more than one person at a time. Or, it could be that Vanitas received his own Keyblade, which later would belong again to Ventus, meaning that Ventus, in his own right, could dual-wield and that Mickey could wield one while Sora wielded the other, more or less.

 

[Zulkir]

Why do you think LS is not around anymore? We saw him jam his KB into the ground then linger there saying "Aqua, Ven, Someday I will set things right".


I don't think Sora went into the past to fight LS, I think he's still "Lingering" as he should.

 

[xStarSeekerx]

You, my friend, are a friggin Genius! best theories ever!!1!

ok, just some stuff i thought about

you said, Xemnas is MF and that he's using that door of traveling time. Sora sealed that door right? the other one remained in the Disney Castle.

To be Candid, i am 100% with you with MF is Xemnas. its just that i dont know how Xemnas went back in time. I mean the only theory i have is that the MF is a ghost of some sort or LS. if you notice he doesn't use the dark realm, he kinda just fades in and out like a ghost.


on a scale of 1-10 the series complication level is at 33!

alright you sound like a uber smart dude at KH

explain to me why the hell kairi can wield a keyblade.
i mean like really?? outta nowhere! she jsut gets one from riku and starts kicking heartless ass.

 

[gelandporn]

Why do you think LS is not around anymore? We saw him jam his KB into the ground then linger there saying "Aqua, Ven, Someday I will set things right".

I don't think Sora went into the past to fight LS, I think he's still "Lingering" as he should.

His keyblade certainly wasn't still lingering there, it went off flying around the Dark Realm. I don't have much reason to believe that the rest of him lingered too.
Yen Sid said there was no sign of Terra (And LS would certainly be a "sign").

I think they would have been thorough enough to check and make sure he wasn't at the Keyblade Graveyard- the last place Terra was sighted.

explain to me why the hell kairi can wield a keyblade.
i mean like really?? outta nowhere! she jsut gets one from riku and starts kicking heartless ass.

This was explained. :/
She can wield because she accidentally became Aqua's apprentice when she touched her keyblade.

As for where Destiny's Embrace came from, who knows.

 

[Zyrax]

Well, I always thought, that the Gaia Bane (End of Earth) now became LS's Keyblade and Terra's original Keyblade (Earthshaker) was in the RoD alongside Wayward Wind :/

//Edit:

And I think that LS stills is in KG, but his battle with Sora didn't really take place, I think it should only be a teaser, or maybe this fight will take place in KH III.

 

[Sign]

explain to me why the hell kairi can wield a keyblade.

Accidental Rite of Succesion with Aqua.

i mean like really?? outta nowhere! she jsut gets one from riku and starts kicking heartless ass.

Iirc, according to the novels, Destiny's Embrace materialized for Riku when he was thinking of home, but the Keyblade itself belongs to Apprentice Xehanort.

 

[skyfoxx]

Okay, on the issue of the MF's "height" I really don't think that should count as a valid excuse. Why? Well...

Lingering Sentiment is a freakin' giant compared to the others here. Far too big to be Terra. But of course, when BBS came out, they re-adjusted the size so LS wouldn't be so unnaturally huge.

Same thing could easily apply to Mysterious Figure.

 

[Silverslide]

That doesn't matter Skyfoxx because MF's model is apprently the same as Xemnas' model. So naturally the height is the same, regardless of models.

 

[skyfoxx]

That doesn't matter Skyfoxx because MF's model is apprently the same as Xemnas' model. So naturally the height is the same, regardless of models.

Well, it wouldn't be the "exact" model because they need to remake it with the PSP and reduce a lot of the polygons. Plus the models for Terra, Ventus and Aqua were made loooong after Xemnas was. They never modeled Terra based on Xemnas' height because at the beginning of development of the game, they weren't concerned about Xemnas being there. Thus, if this model is just an exact duplicate from KH2, then that means they wouldn't have bothered re-sizing him to fit with the rest of the models.

 

[Theart]

*clapping* Well done, Grass. This is the only "MF = Some form of Xehanort" theory that I actually like and could support. Personally I think it's someone completely new (and I suppose in a sense that even in your theory, it would be with that whole No Name =/= Xemnas/Terra/MX/Apprentice Xehanort), but that's not important.

Also, didn't Nomura say somewhere about the fight being canon, despite it seeming impossible to have occurred? Could be having a screwy memory, but I'm pretty sure he said that... >>;

 

[HeartSeams]

Also, didn't Nomura say somewhere about the fight being canon, despite it seeming impossible to have occurred? Could be having a screwy memory, but I'm pretty sure he said that... >>;

He said nothing like that. He made no comment on the fight actually happening, just that the character seemed to be someone involved with the story.

What he actually said:

—This new character must be someone involved in the story, right?
NOMURA: I think it’d seem so, but at the point in time of Birth by Sleep, this person’s true figure isn’t fully understood. Similar to the way the Lingering Sentiment was, its a character who at the present time is an existence of mystery.

 

[Ikkin]

Re: the Lingering Sentiment and Terra's mind,

I don't think it's possible that it could have it.

Why?

Because Xemnas has it, and we're never given any reason to believe that the soul - or any part thereof - can replicate itself.

However, there's one other element of a person in Kingdom Hearts that could be responsible for what you've noted as the effects of the mind - memories.

Memories in Kingdom Hearts are a very strange thing. They're supposed to exist within the heart, but they seem to be capable of leaving an imprint of themselves in whatever kind of vessel they're placed in. Nobodies carry the memories of their Others, hinting that their Others' memories had imprinted themselves onto their body. It stands to reason that, if Terra's armor has enough of a connection to his heart, it might have received an imprint of his memories as well - which would leave the Lingering Sentiment as something like an artificial Nobody.

And, in that case, it wouldn't be an issue for Xemnas to exist, because nothing of Terra would be lost by the Lingering Sentiment's creation. Xemnas does not, of course, have all of Terra's memories, but he does at least seem to have parts (as well as parts of Master Xehanort's memory), which would give a second reason for his complete shift in personality from Terra (since memory seems to be the thing that determines who you are in KH).

Another consequence of this would be, of course, that even if the Unknown is a complete Xemnas, this would not preclude Apprentice Xehanort from returning. (Though it does seem likely that, like Roxas, Xion and Sora, only one of the two could keep the memories at any given time)

 

[Relix]

You see thing is with Xehanort is, he stayed a heartless long past Sora did, meaning there was pleny of time for Xemnas to recieve the memories from Xehanort, so Xemnas and Xehanort's Heartless wouldn't have to share memories like Roxas and Sora.

So Xemnas technically has Xehanort's memories and a mind of his own seeing how he is making decisions simultaneously with Xehanort's Heartless when he was still kicking. It still kinda checks out.

edit: So is this a complete Xemnas transcending(ah, Aizen) the nature of a nobody and becoming "human" in his own right? So he's not really a Xehanort's Nobody, he's Complete Xemnas?

 

[Zarin I Yehudahi]

Awesome theory. It makes a sense out of a lot of the stuff involving Xehanort.

 

[gelandporn]

Re: the Lingering Sentiment and Terra's mind,

I don't think it's possible that it could have it.

Well, first and foremost, he does.
It's right there. Terranort states that his mind resists.

If you disagree with my definition of the mind, that's totally fine. But whatever the "mind" is, LS has it.

Because Xemnas has it, and we're never given any reason to believe that the soul - or any part thereof - can replicate itself.

The idea that Xemnas has the same mind as Terra is a pretty big leap.
Namine does not have the same mind as Kairi, Roxas does not have the same mind as Sora, Xehanort's Heartless does not have the same mind as Xemnas.

These are all cases in which two entities come from one being and yet operate under two separate minds. So while nothing is necessarily "replicated," something comes in to existence to give these beings their own unique identity. And it's not memories, particularly knowing that in Roxas and Namine's cases, they maintained their own identity without memories.

I was proposing that, in the case of Xemnas, he does have his own mind, separate from Terra and MX, but, given the memories he has and the vessel which influences his identity, he operates with the same motives as Terra.