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*TwilightNight*

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I think it's because any ship that Namine's involved with inevitably draws the ire of Roxas/Namine shippers. I mean, I understand, 2 made it seem like they were going to be a thing, especially since they mirrored SoKai, and then Xion comes out of nowhere in Days and smashes the chances of that ship to pieces. It's harder for het shippers because they're much more used to their ships becoming canon than slash shippers, so when it doesn't happen, well...

First of all, don't generalize, it's not only incorrect, but places people in some imaginary mind hive to shrug off solid arguments. Second, there's nothing for Roxas/Naminè shippers to be ired about when Nomura debunked RikuNami anyway and they have content. So that doesn't make any sense. And third of all, just because you think or view Roxas and Xion as getting together in some romantic lense (based on your previous comment in this thread) doesn't mean they will. The only ones getting mad here are those who like RikuNami (you and Face My Fears) because Lord forbid they aren't romantically coded and people don't think they are.

If you were aiming at the fact that I like Roxas and Naminè well enough, I'm not the one sitting here in this thread pushing them together for future biased shipping fodder, now am I.
 
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*sigh*

Ehh…

Somehow even though the controversial LTD about Roxas got voted to an impasse, Naminé still managed to hijack the thread months later.

Listen up, time to put it as succinctly as possible and end this.

The canon possibility of a Riku/Naminé pair got torpedo’ed to heaven the moment the Ultimania got published. However, it’s still a ship, just a fandom thing, and should be enjoyed as such as long as it’s not obnoxiously shoved down someone else’s throat.

Nomura can’t write romance. Does it look like the guy has even had a romance? He’s 50-something, unmarried, and he goes home to cats. That’s not a bad thing per se, but he has no real life framework of his own for long-term relationships. I fear for the next parts of the VII remake because the pinkers and Cloti shippers are RABID as f—k. Combined with a director who can’t write romance? Oh…joy…

The game isn’t a Bechdel test. A playable girl would never be important in the long run because of one thing: no one ever really mattered except Sora. All other playable characters are tied to Sora. Nomura himself said that the hero even into the next saga of the IP is and always will be Sora, although I can’t remember which interview that was.
 

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And yes, Kairi would have gotten the same level of outcry. The criticism is fans wanting her to get away from being so Sora-centered and have the chance to be her own character without being bogged by his existence. That, and to get some respect. If you start the game with a group of three and only two continously get attention, revelance, and an arc, then it's going to ruffle feathers. Especially if this was mistreatment throughout the entire saga. People would still have gotten tired, especially when we witnessed her get fridged.
It is so sad that the Destiny Trio was introduced together and yet have become the Destiny Duo and a third wheel who is lucky when she gets to be a supporting character to the other two. Especially when other duos are retroactively turned into trios that mirror SRK. Apparently Kairi is important enough for other friendships to mirror her position, but not important enough to get any real focus despite being best friends with the protagonist and deuteragonist.
 

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Yeah see that's the thing, people thought Days was gonna be about the organization on a whole, instead of being the Roxas & the fanfic-self-insert-Mary-Sue show. There wasn't even a hint of Xion's existence in KH2 & it never felt like Roxas ordeal had anything to do with her at the time.
I was always under the impression that Days was going to be about Roxas (and Axel). When I saw Xion, I got really excited to see who this mysterious character was. Back in those days, anything to do with Roxas' story I would obsess over. Then Xion got her story in Days and it was amazing and now she's one of my top characters.

With what you're saying about Roxas' ordeal in KH2 feeling like it had nothing to do with Xion at the time, I don't think it's fair to call out Xion for that when there are so many other similar instances throughout the series: KH1 and KH2 - when released - felt like they had nothing to do with Master Xehanort, the X-Blade or Aqua/Terra/Ven. In the KH2 ReMIX, we see a glimpse of Aqua's armour, but that was obviously thrown in to build up to BbS. There was absolutely no hint of Master Xehanort in KH1 - at the time of release - so why come down on Xion, when there are other instances of this? Xion was brilliantly woven into the story and didn't have to jump through as many hoops as Master Xehanort to come into existence in the plot.
 

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If Riku's fate is to be either single or paired up with a female love interest, I rather him be single. I couldn't handle it if that boy was straightwashed.

In fact, as much as I've been wanting Soriku through the years, since it's unlikely to become canon especially now with ReMind, I would be satisfied if Riku was at least confirmed gay or had feelings for Sora. I'm tired of the ambiguity and teasing surrounding that.

It would make KH1 less confusing too since who on earth would be jealous of Donald and Goofy for any other reason.
 

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If Riku's fate is to be either single or paired up with a female love interest, I rather him be single. I couldn't handle it if that boy was straightwashed.

In fact, as much as I've been wanting Soriku through the years, since it's unlikely to become canon especially now with ReMind, I would be satisfied if Riku was at least confirmed gay or had feelings for Sora. I'm tired of the ambiguity and teasing surrounding that.

It would make KH1 less confusing too since who on earth would be jealous of Donald and Goofy for any other reason.
That is where I am at as well. Sora and Kairi being together has always felt inevitable despite how much I don’t think they work together. I find nothing compelling about their relationship. Most of the intrigue began and ended with KH1. KH2 felt hamfisted. Everything else has been pretty vapid, using the age old telling not showing method…

But at the end of the day I can accept that it is going to be endgame.

What I don’t want is for Riku to suddenly find love in one of the existing female characters or a new one gets made for him. Riku being gay would make so much sense. The anger and confusion he had at 14, the self-loathing for the year while Sora slept and beyond, the slow and gradual acceptance of who he is, seeing Sora as his guiding light. Riku embodies a very familiar journey LGBTQ+ teens experience.

And imagine how amazing it would be to have the deuteragonist of a long-running and popular game series be revealed as gay? In a Disney franchise?

And you can’t just delete it out of the plot because like you said everything from KH1 to now would make so much more sense. All I ask is that if they ever do this, they don’t pull a Supernatural and send Riku to super hell.
 

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That is where I am at as well. Sora and Kairi being together has always felt inevitable despite how much I don’t think they work together. I find nothing compelling about their relationship. Most of the intrigue began and ended with KH1. KH2 felt hamfisted. Everything else has been pretty vapid, using the age old telling not showing method…

But at the end of the day I can accept that it is going to be endgame.

What I don’t want is for Riku to suddenly find love in one of the existing female characters or a new one gets made for him. Riku being gay would make so much sense. The anger and confusion he had at 14, the self-loathing for the year while Sora slept and beyond, the slow and gradual acceptance of who he is, seeing Sora as his guiding light. Riku embodies a very familiar journey LGBTQ+ teens experience.

And imagine how amazing it would be to have the deuteragonist of a long-running and popular game series be revealed as gay? In a Disney franchise?

And you can’t just delete it out of the plot because like you said everything from KH1 to now would make so much more sense. All I ask is that if they ever do this, they don’t pull a Supernatural and send Riku to super hell.
What if they give Riku a girlfriend and say he’s bisexual? 🤔
Everybody wins! Disney doesn’t have to show a gay relationship that they are so against showing and they can get those fans who want representation to shut up.
 

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What if they give Riku a girlfriend and say he’s bisexual? 🤔
Everybody wins! Disney doesn’t have to show a gay relationship that they are so against showing and they can get those fans who want representation to shut up.
Idk, I always find it to be a cop out to verbally reveal a character as bi but have them in a strictly heteronormative relationship. I’m not saying a bi person needs to be in a relationship with a person of the same sex or gender for their sexuality to be valid (as a bi person and somebody who is friends with plenty of bi/pan people, this is our biggest pet peeve bc of bierasure), but rather that popular media has a tendency to make these sorts of reveals and then only allow these characters to be in a heteronormative relationship as to not upset conservative audiences.

It would be different if bi characters were more common and not either shown to be extremely promiscuous (as is the case with a lot of bi women in media) or in het relationships only (as is the case with a lot of bi men in media). This is a complex situation, though, and there is no real right answer to it. Believing a bi character should be in a same-sex relationship is just as much a form of bierasure as having them in a het relationship only, but I think context and how the character is explored is important to making things work.

I hope I’m explaining that well…I’m mostly trying to say that if they say he’s bi and then never acknowledge it after that and suddenly add a female love interest or pair him up with an existing one, I think that’s a clear sign they fear retaliation by certain people. Another sign would also be that they would distance or isolate him from most male characters, especially Sora.

But thinking on Riku as a potential bi character, I guess I don’t feel strongly for that interpretation despite my own sexuality? Riku’s never shown interest in women, or is outright confused when one attempts to flirt (i.e. Shiki’s joking flirt in KH3D). What interest he had in Kairi always seemed platonic and born out of his anger at Sora. But at the end of the day he could absolutely be bi. It’s not an invalid reading at all.

And in a bubble, if he were to be paired with a female love interest and revealed to be bi, my concern would fall onto the female character. She can’t just be some random character added strictly to serve as a love interest. She needs to be an active and independent character, and I wouldn’t want their relationship to follow the same trend as others in the series where they are underdeveloped.

This would also go for any potential male love interest, too.

I just really dislike media where a new character comes into the series just for the express purpose of being a love interest…
 

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I think at this point giving Riku a love interest would feel really weird. You either have to pick a random pre-existing character that Riku really never paid attention to (because Sora, Kairi and Mickey are the only characters Riku has ever been shown giving a crap about, and I don't really think any of those options would happen lol), or introduce someone new solely to be his love interest, and I think the fandom wouldn't react well to that.

If it's a girl it would be worse because female characters in this series already have enough trouble being relevant when they're not created to be a love interest (which is why I'm very nervous about how they'll deal with Nameless Star). If it's a guy... well, I'd be pleasantly surprised.
 

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Idk, I always find it to be a cop out to verbally reveal a character as bi but have them in a strictly heteronormative relationship. I’m not saying a bi person needs to be in a relationship with a person of the same sex or gender for their sexuality to be valid (as a bi person and somebody who is friends with plenty of bi/pan people, this is our biggest pet peeve bc of bierasure), but rather that popular media has a tendency to make these sorts of reveals and then only allow these characters to be in a heteronormative relationship as to not upset conservative audiences.

It would be different if bi characters were more common and not either shown to be extremely promiscuous (as is the case with a lot of bi women in media) or in het relationships only (as is the case with a lot of bi men in media). This is a complex situation, though, and there is no real right answer to it. Believing a bi character should be in a same-sex relationship is just as much a form of bierasure as having them in a het relationship only, but I think context and how the character is explored is important to making things work.

I hope I’m explaining that well…I’m mostly trying to say that if they say he’s bi and then never acknowledge it after that and suddenly add a female love interest or pair him up with an existing one, I think that’s a clear sign they fear retaliation by certain people. Another sign would also be that they would distance or isolate him from most male characters, especially Sora.

But thinking on Riku as a potential bi character, I guess I don’t feel strongly for that interpretation despite my own sexuality? Riku’s never shown interest in women, or is outright confused when one attempts to flirt (i.e. Shiki’s joking flirt in KH3D). What interest he had in Kairi always seemed platonic and born out of his anger at Sora. But at the end of the day he could absolutely be bi. It’s not an invalid reading at all.

And in a bubble, if he were to be paired with a female love interest and revealed to be bi, my concern would fall onto the female character. She can’t just be some random character added strictly to serve as a love interest. She needs to be an active and independent character, and I wouldn’t want their relationship to follow the same trend as others in the series where they are underdeveloped.

This would also go for any potential male love interest, too.

I just really dislike media where a new character comes into the series just for the express purpose of being a love interest…
Well, I was kidding originally. But you're right. To me, he seems a bit more gay than bi, but he could be either.
But if Disney does decide to go this route, they would definitely do that. Or maybe even not give him a love interest at all.
 

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My biggest fear when it comes to canon queer Riku is some kind of "he loves Sora but Sora doesn't feel the same :( so he'll be alone forever".
 

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My biggest fear when it comes to canon queer Riku is some kind of "he loves Sora but Sora doesn't feel the same :( so he'll be alone forever".
I mean that already is the case if KH3+ReMind is anything to go by, as sad as it is. Him being confirmed to be in love with Sora but accepting it won't be reciprocated the same way is still something of a victory in reading his character as gay, in a long running Disney franchise at that, even if it's tragic and slightly cliche. It's better than nothing, or being thrown a female love interest.
 

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With what you're saying about Roxas' ordeal in KH2 feeling like it had nothing to do with Xion at the time, I don't think it's fair to call out Xion for that when there are so many other similar instances throughout the series: KH1 and KH2 - when released - felt like they had nothing to do with Master Xehanort, the X-Blade or Aqua/Terra/Ven. In the KH2 ReMIX, we see a glimpse of Aqua's armour, but that was obviously thrown in to build up to BbS. There was absolutely no hint of Master Xehanort in KH1 - at the time of release - so why come down on Xion, when there are other instances of this? Xion was brilliantly woven into the story and didn't have to jump through as many hoops as Master Xehanort to come into existence in the plot.

That is not the same case at all? Characters XYZ not being introduced prior is not the issue, but how they are incorporated into the overarching story.

BBS was very careful in how it weaved the new cast into the existing canon. It took advantage of existing lore and used hints and nods established in past works and was able to elaborate on them naturally. The game was set in times and places that we were unfamiliar with and depicted events that we had no prior knowledge, so it could flesh things out without being disruptive. It expanded on history, rather than trying to change it.

Xion, however, came in like a wrecking ball. The writers had next to nothing of Days conceptualized at the time of KH2 or even 2FM, so they couldn't lay any groundwork like they did with BBS. There was nothing of Xion that was alluded to in other games; by deciding to introduce a new character, they had to bend over backwards to explain why she'd both appear and disappear without leaving a single trace, and unfortunately for them, the reasoning kinda falls apart the second you start thinking about it. The supporting cast had to behave noticeably out of character to justify how her journey and character arc could proceed the way it did, and her involvement in the story changed context and perception of events that were already established in KH2 to redirect focus on her.

We can agree to disagree, but imo, her introduction into this series was disruptive as hell and left much to be desired.



Although of this has anything to do with shipping so lol sorry for the derail
 
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Idreamaboutcats

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That is not the same case at all? Characters XYZ not being introduced prior is not the issue, but how they are incorporated into the overarching story.

BBS was very careful in how it weaved the new cast into the existing canon. It took advantage of existing lore and used hints and nods established in past works and was able to elaborate on them naturally. The game was set in times and places that we were unfamiliar with and depicted events that we had no prior knowledge, so it could flesh things out without being disruptive. It expanded on history, rather than trying to change it.

Xion, however, came in like a wrecking ball. The writers had next to nothing of Days conceptualized at the time of KH2 or even 2FM, so they couldn't lay any groundwork like they did with BBS. There was nothing of Xion that was alluded to in other games; by deciding to introduce a new character, they had to bend over backwards to explain why she'd both appear and disappear without leaving a single trace, and unfortunately for them, the reasoning kinda falls apart the second you start thinking about it. The supporting cast had to behave noticeably out of character to justify how her journey and character arc could proceed the way it did, and her involvement in the story changed context and perception of events that were already established in KH2 to redirect focus on her.

We can agree to disagree, but imo, her introduction into this series was disruptive as hell and left much to be desired.



Although of this has anything to do with shipping so lol sorry for the derail
Oh finally! A post that summarizes my somewhat begrudging acceptance and tolerance of Xion perfectly. Speaking of shipping, I haven’t yet revealed who my preference is for Roxas, but it should be about as obvious as the revelation of Luxu being the traitor.

However, that’s beside the point. I actually came to post that I somewhat both simultaneously agree and disagree with what Sign said. Xion came in out of nowhere, true, but not completely. Xemnas did take a sample of Sora’s memory in the first final mix after all, which turned out to be the most important memories of one person, Kairi (score for the SoKai shippers!), upon which Xion was eventually built from. Do I agree that her introduction was awkward and even unnecessary? Yes. Was she a good addition to the plot despite a flipped-coin side of Kairi (i.e. Naminé) already existing? That depends. Despite all that, is she still a character worth sympathizing with and deserved a good ending? Yes.
 

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I can't say if I would care if Riku is confirmed as LGBTQ at this point or not. It would be a hollow "win," since he'll be completely alone anyway. I actually wouldn't be surprised if, after rescuing Sora, Riku stays in Quadratum with a female love interest there since he was treated like a third wheel most of KH3 as it was. But then it's hard to see where any of the characters are going in the series at the moment.
 

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I greatly enjoy how everyone agrees the main trio is comprised of a duo and one third wheel, yet no one can seem to agree on who the third wheel is.
 

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I greatly enjoy how everyone agrees the main trio is comprised of a duo and one third wheel, yet no one can seem to agree on who the third wheel is.
They are both third wheels to each other’s duo. Sora & Riku with Kairi as the third wheel. Sora & Kairi with Riku as the third wheel. Riku & Kairi only happens when Sora is literally dead or whatever lol
 

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As much as I enjoy the "Queen Xion" trashing, there is a thread for it, if the mods are cool with reviving it. I think at this point it should be pinned, lmao.

As for the Riku situation, my gripe was the idea that Naminè needs to be attached to him in particular to be of importance despite the lack of strong foundation in their bond and the nonchalance of Riku concerning her. Give me a Kairi/Naminè via connection to Ava or some other concept than that.

I do think it's dangerous for people to pin an LGBTQ sexuality for Riku if only because it's setting them up for disappointment. He doesn't just have no romantic interest in girls, he doesn't have any romantic interest in anyone. One can perceive his relationships as one of actual love/romance, but it's simply not cemented, let alone official. Not to mention, this tends to come up with male/male friendships a lot (ex. Naruto and Sasuke), where the connection with the male best friends is a lot more nuanced, developed, and strong. This might be a Japanese/Asian thing with male friendships? And the West perceives it differently because we're not used to how it's handled? It's occurred too many times for it to be coincidental.

If anyone has come to any research and conclusion to that, it'll be great.

Either way, while Disney has its name in the series, it's really what Nomura intended to present with Riku and Sora.

It is so sad that the Destiny Trio was introduced together and yet have become the Destiny Duo and a third wheel who is lucky when she gets to be a supporting character to the other two. Especially when other duos are retroactively turned into trios that mirror SRK. Apparently Kairi is important enough for other friendships to mirror her position, but not important enough to get any real focus despite being best friends with the protagonist and deuteragonist.

I'm not sure what went in the planning process, but it's just an ongoing issue with KH in terms of women. There is no doubt in my mind that if Nomura had to choose between a male or female character to make an arc of, he would go for the male. Unless he's hamfisted into it due to criticism (i.e. Kairi).
 

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As much as I enjoy the "Queen Xion" trashing, there is a thread for it, if the mods are cool with reviving it. I think at this point it should be pinned, lmao.
You have my blessing lol
 
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