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Nomura, you sly fox! I see what you did...



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JustSnilloc

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So I was playing Re: CoM, and it hit me! No not literally, but we all know that Marluxia lied about the whole "castle oblivion makes you forget stuff" thing, right? But we never really understood the reason for the card system. Was he lying about that too? I think not. See, I've always thought (at least since BbS/Days) that CoM should have used the command deck, why? Because both the card system for CO and the Command Deck follow essentially the same principles (at least for combat). So when I started up Re: CoM (after completing KH1FM naturally) this "flaw" etched into my brain came back to the surface, but this time instead of just thinking "blah blah, could have been better.", something clicked in my mind and it all made since.

Here's what I realized. We all know that the Command Deck is the "proper" way to wield the keyblade, correct? What if, as the training grounds for keyblade wielders, The Land of Departure actually forces you to use the command deck? Think about it, it's entirely possible since everyone from there uses the command deck (in their own way), and everyone who goes there is forced to use the system. You're probably thinking "they are similar, but not the same.", AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE POINT! If you were forced to use the Command Deck, but didn't have anyone to guide you through it, CoM's card system is what you would get!

Whether it was clever forethought or ingenious backtracking to make CoM's card system relevant, I say that Nomura is one sly fox pulling that one on us. I mean the clues are all there, cards make up a deck - the command deck, TVA use the command deck and come from (what is now) Castle Oblivion, everyone who goes there has to use a similar system, all of the similarities between the two systems (in how combat works)... I honestly don't know why I didn't put 2 and 2 together before now.

This does lead to an interesting observation though, Sora/Riku are taught the command deck in DDD, Mickey has plans to save his lost friends... Could Yen Sid (in addition to simply teaching them the "proper way") be preparing them for a return trip to Castle Oblivion? I'm not sure if they actually know what's going on with Ven or if they simply think CO might hold something useful, but it almost makes too much sense, you know? And yeah, we all know Aqua knows how to find Ven, but what about Ven? Surely he knows too.

It does make for an interesting mechanic, and perhaps we'll see it explained in KH3. For now however, what do you guys think about this?

(totally not sure where this topic should go because of all it covers, hopefully this works though!)
 

Korai

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This sounds pretty interesting, I had never thought of it like that.
I had always thought that the system in CoM was like this:
When Namine took SDG's memories of a world, she turned them into a card, which they used to "create" that world on a floor.
So since they "forgot every spell or ability the moment they set foot in this castle," I thought that that was Namine taking the memories of those attacks, spells, and abilities, and turning them into cards, which is what was used in battle throughout the game.

You could be right, though. I think it'd be kinda cool to go through Castle Oblivion with the command deck.
 

SilenceTheTardis

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Seriously interesting theory! So to follow that logic, the menu system from KH and KH2 was the style that Sora developed without any proper instruction from a keyblade wielder, the Days menu was a variant of that because Roxas derived it from Sora, and the Coded system was essentially the command deck because Data Sora existed in a computer belonging to Mickey who learned from a true Master.

Don't know if Nomura is really that crafty, but I kinda hope so...
 

Gram

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It's a very interesting theory! Though it depends on if they are simply just game mechanics or not.
 

Solo

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While they might just be game mechanics, I don't mind the card system actually being an imperfect form of command deck. A retcon it might be, but a darn interesting one it is.
 

Lnds500

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This is a perfect example of looking to much into something. :tongue:

The theory itself is interesting, but I don't think the card system is anything more than a (stupid) battle mechanic born of the limitations of the GBA. For later games they just had the flexibility to produce a better system fit for handhelds.
 

Seighart

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This is a perfect example of looking to much into something. :tongue:

The theory itself is interesting, but I don't think the card system is anything more than a (stupid) battle mechanic born of the limitations of the GBA. For later games they just had the flexibility to produce a better system fit for handhelds.

Maybe, but it wouldn't be the first time Nomura set things up as such. The series lives off "connections" no matter how little they may seem. From VAs to music, it all had reasons.
 

JustSnilloc

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Seriously interesting theory! So to follow that logic, the menu system from KH and KH2 was the style that Sora developed without any proper instruction from a keyblade wielder, the Days menu was a variant of that because Roxas derived it from Sora, and the Coded system was essentially the command deck because Data Sora existed in a computer belonging to Mickey who learned from a true Master.


Don't know if Nomura is really that crafty, but I kinda hope so...


I've always thought of Days system as a sort of "proto-command deck" tbh, though the more I think about it, the more it seems like a mix between the two systems. Which wouldn't be a stretch considering like you said Roxas's fighting style was probably an extension of Sora's, and Ven's heart might have had small influences as well.


It's a very interesting theory! Though it depends on if they are simply just game mechanics or not.


Thanks! Obviously I've given some thought on whether or not they are simply game mechanics or not, and I have reasons to believe the latter. Most notably the command deck being the "proper way". Now I'd have to go back to compile all the evidence for this, but I'll stick with the parallels presented as the command deck being the "proper way".

In Birth by Sleep we have three keyblade wielders (playable) who have been trained by Keyblade Masters since youth. The combat system they use? The command deck. Flash forward to DDD and we have Sora/Riku having to start over with "the proper way", which also happens to be the command deck, this need to start over stresses at least a small level of significance. In every other title, we use something other than the command deck (as SilenceTheTardis already elaborated)... Coincidence or not?

See, in every other title there is no emphasis on a proper way and thus no command deck. In CoM we get a combat system entirely different than the rest of the series with eerie similarities to the command deck. I think the fact that Nomura, when he could have easily named the system anything else, chose to name it a "command deck", and what are decks comprised of again? Oh yeah, cards. Another noteworthy tidbit is how in DDD Sora/Riku have to start over in order to learn the command deck, and how when entering Castle Oblivion they also have to start over. Because surely Namine couldn't have done so much work on SDG that as soon as they enter Donald can no longer cast spells, in fact while nobody was paying any attention to Riku (no pun intended) he still had to start over with the card system. There's also the fact that the journal being blank wasn't Namine's doing either, so obviously Namine wasn't behind all the weird stuff at Castle Oblivion.


Interesting theory. So what would you say about the KH Chi battle system?


I really don't know too much about it (since I haven't played it), but it's not supposed to canon right? Just a fairy tale. I wouldn't look too deeply into it, but perhaps the card system holds the same principals as CoM? Minus the "forced to", rather being the preferred style of its keyblade wielders.

---

Something else I just thought of is how in the trailer for Kingdom Hearts 3, Sora picks up the Master Keeper (which we saw last with Aqua), this keyblade was the same keyblade used to transform The Land of Departure into Castle Oblivion. Perhaps with Ven's waking heart inside, they'll take a journey through Castle Oblivion to return Ven's heart to him? Because like I said before, surely Ven holds the memories of where he's at. With the Master Keeper in tow and the knowledge of the command deck, Ven may be rescued before Aqua contrary to what we all predicted.
 

Solo

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Beautiful snip

Something else I just thought of is how in the trailer for Kingdom Hearts 3, Sora picks up the Master Keeper (which we saw last with Aqua), this keyblade was the same keyblade used to transform The Land of Departure into Castle Oblivion. Perhaps with Ven's waking heart inside, they'll take a journey through Castle Oblivion to return Ven's heart to him? Because like I said before, surely Ven holds the memories of where he's at. With the Master Keeper in tow and the knowledge of the command deck, Ven may be rescued before Aqua contrary to what we all predicted.

I really have nothing to to say about your theory aside from that it's not entirely impossible and it's impressive. Be it that you're looking too deep into things or not, it was a very interesting observation, and I think you deserve a kudos for that. :)

But if I may veer off the topic for a bit, there's one thing I'd like to comment on with regards to your last paragraph here.

I believe we still need Aqua to rescue Ventus from his slumber. You see, Ventus lost his consciousness at the Keyblade Graveyard after that metaphysical battle in his mind, and had to be carried and piggybacked by Aqua (you lucky kid, you!) to Yen Sid's tower and then LoD. This means even Ventus himself wouldn't know or have the memory of where he currently resides since he had already been comatose by then; the most recent period of time he could probably remember is most probably that time at Keyblade Graveyard. Right now, it's Aqua, and only her, who holds the key (both figuratively and literally speaking) to Ventus' rescue.

Sorry for digressing, I just wanted to express my views on this one. Yeah...
 

kupo1121

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This is a perfect example of looking to much into something. :tongue:

The theory itself is interesting, but I don't think the card system is anything more than a (stupid) battle mechanic born of the limitations of the GBA. For later games they just had the flexibility to produce a better system fit for handhelds.

I do agree that it probably just worked that way but I seriously hope Nomura sees this and makes it canon since this theory is ingenious! Not to mention I really want the command deck to stay and if that's the proper way of wielding a keyblade, then by all means let's teach everyone properly!!!
 
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I don't know. It's an interesting theory, but the cards were made a part of the story. The command deck wasn't. It was just a game mechanic I think.
 

Gram

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Thanks! Obviously I've given some thought on whether or not they are simply game mechanics or not, and I have reasons to believe the latter. Most notably the command deck being the "proper way". Now I'd have to go back to compile all the evidence for this, but I'll stick with the parallels presented as the command deck being the "proper way".

In Birth by Sleep we have three keyblade wielders (playable) who have been trained by Keyblade Masters since youth. The combat system they use? The command deck. Flash forward to DDD and we have Sora/Riku having to start over with "the proper way", which also happens to be the command deck, this need to start over stresses at least a small level of significance. In every other title, we use something other than the command deck (as SilenceTheTardis already elaborated)... Coincidence or not?

See, in every other title there is no emphasis on a proper way and thus no command deck. In CoM we get a combat system entirely different than the rest of the series with eerie similarities to the command deck. I think the fact that Nomura, when he could have easily named the system anything else, chose to name it a "command deck", and what are decks comprised of again? Oh yeah, cards. Another noteworthy tidbit is how in DDD Sora/Riku have to start over in order to learn the command deck, and how when entering Castle Oblivion they also have to start over. Because surely Namine couldn't have done so much work on SDG that as soon as they enter Donald can no longer cast spells, in fact while nobody was paying any attention to Riku (no pun intended) he still had to start over with the card system. There's also the fact that the journal being blank wasn't Namine's doing either, so obviously Namine wasn't behind all the weird stuff at Castle Oblivion.

Though I like the theory I can't help but find this stretching it. Because while you see it as the proper way I see it as an excuse for nomura to put sora at level one again and to bring in his improved command menu style into DDD.

Like how the Card system and memory erasing was a way for him to bring sora back to level one in CoM and to experiment with new systems.
 

ChibiHearts249

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I like using this theory to fill in any gaps. But Namine states that she has "power over Sora's memories, and those connected to him." Donald and Goofy are simply restricted to this method of fighting (as well as Sora) simply because she MADE it that way. Maybe Marluxia knew something about LoD and decided to make Sora fight like that by using Namine, or some such other thing? Who knows?

Since that's what was SAID to be the case, I feel that it's right. But your theory is much cooler, so I shall replace what I know in my mind with it! ;3
 

ShinobiMuramasa

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Fantastic theory! It definitely makes a lot of sense and is an excellent explanation that marries gameplay mechanics to story.
 

skyfoxx

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That's a very interesting theory and it does connect... but I'm going to have to be the one who says, "It's just a game mechanic and has nothing to do with the story." Still, it's interesting nonetheless.
 

136199Goat

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It's quite the thought, but... ugh, I hope I don't have to use the CoM card system EVER again. Larxene alone caused me weeks of nightmares...
 
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