Nobodies

[Smile]

But NEVER has a heart of itself taken on the form of a human
without having a vessel.

I have transcended to an existence of only the heart. I should have come back as a Heartless, but there is no sign of such a transformation.

Namely - Xehanort was only a Heart, yet not a Heartless.
Lawl.

Besides if Sora was a human Heartless, why did he grow in
the pod even before Roxas merged with him? That there is
the ultimate contradiction.

There is nothing contradictory about Sora's Sense of Self changing, especially seeing how Nobodies - being the vessels lacking the Hearts - do not age for the most part
Then we have the Pod being possibly responsible for it.
And of course, the notion that Nobodies aren't supposed to age, but then again, Sora was pured of his Darkness, thus allowing for a connection between him and Roxas to still exist. They could both still age and be synchronized while doing so while being apart.

 

[Key of Valor]

Riku's heart was never seperated from his vessel.
That's why he doesn't have a Nobody. His essence
had been plunged into darkness which is why he
appeared in the Realm of Darkness. He was
projected in that realm from his heart. When
Xehanort was defeated, Riku was able to reclaim
his original vessel but Xehanort's darkness was still
a part of it which is why Riku's use of too much
darkness triggered his vessel to turn into Xehanort.

A non-vessel would not grow.

Nobodies age, duh.
Heartless don't age, duh.

Sora was sleeping,
his sense of self would
thus not change his form.

 

[Smile]

n the ending, Riku and the King are on the other side of the door. Why is that?

Nomura: As far as the King is concerned, he was on the other side from the beginning. He disappeared because he went to the world on the other side in order to find one of the two keys. There, he has his own adventure in the same way as Sora. As for Riku, his body stolen by Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless), his heart did not remain in this world. The other side of the door is, just as it appears, Darkness. So Riku's heart went to the world on the other side, that is to say just as Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless) was saying at the end, the world of Darkness. Thus, when Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless) disappears and Riku returns to his original body, he is in the world of Darkness. (Riku returned to his original body, therefore leaving no Heartless or Nobody.)

.

 

[Byronic Hero]

A non-vessel would not grow.

Nobodies age, duh.
Heartless don't age, duh.

Prove this.

 

[Key of Valor]

Nobodies have living vessels, thus they age.
If that weren't proof enough, then Xemnas
should stand as a perfect example of how
Nobodies age.

Heartless/solely-heart-enitities don't have
living vessels and therefore can't age.
It's as simple as that.

However SA, you have made me reconsider
Riku's existence in the dark realm and I admit
you're probably right about that one. However
Riku and Sora's circumstances hold a great
deal of differences. In fact during Riku's situation
it practically states as proof that Sora couldn't
exist as solely a heart in the realm of light in
human form without a vessel.

 

[Axie]

Nobodies have living vessels, thus they age.
If that weren't proof enough, then Xemnas
should stand as a perfect example of how
Nobodies age.

I believe they do, but--

Heartless/solely-heart-enitities don't have
living vessels and therefore can't age.
It's as simple as that.

This is impossible to say, because the lower Heartless (and, for that matter, lower Nobodies) wouldn't have a lot of physical changes. The only people to have human shells are Sora, Riku, and Xehanort, and GUESS WHAT? AGED.

However SA, you have made me reconsider
Riku's existence in the dark realm and I admit
you're probably right about that one. However
Riku and Sora's circumstances hold a great
deal of differences. In fact during Riku's situation
it practically states as proof that Sora couldn't
exist as solely a heart in the realm of light in
human form without a vessel.

Clarify plz. If anything, Sora's heart would be safer in the realm of light than in the realm of darkness.

 

[Key of Valor]

Well according to Mickey, Riku's heart overcame the darkness but couldn't take
back his body so he ended up in the Realm of Darkness, where lost hearts gather.

Sora overcame the darkness but he too couldn't claim back his vessel, thus his
heart would also end up in the Realm of Darkness, but it didn't, which means
the primary concept of what happened to Sora doesn't match what happened
to Riku.

 

[Smile]

However SA, you have made me reconsider
Riku's existence in the dark realm and I admit
you're probably right about that one

I just quoted Nomura saying Riku was only a Heart and I'm probably right? What's wrong with you?

In fact during Riku's situation
it practically states as proof that Sora couldn't
exist as solely a heart in the realm of light in
human form without a vessel.

Heartless. I don't need to say more, but I will.
They are Hearts lacking a Physical Shell, surrounded by Darkness.
Kairi just sent the Darkness away. What did that leave us?
A Heart lacking a Physical shell.
Like Xehanort attested to being in the 12th Ansem Report

Sora overcame the darkness but he too couldn't claim back his vessel, thus his
heart would also end up in the Realm of Darkness, but it didn't, which means
the primary concept of what happened to Sora doesn't match what happened
to Riku.

Only Riku's Heart couldn't return to the Realm of Light because he'd have had to go through the Door to Darkness or open a CoD, and not being a being of Darkness at the time, he couldn't perform neither deed. Sora on the other hand did what most Heartless do - and returned to the Realm of Light at one of the places where it was easier to return to, being the Darkness-eaten Hollow bastion.
His Heart was engulfed by Darkness, but that doesn't mean he remained in the Realm of Darkness.
Nobodies can travel between Realms too, but that doesn't mean they remained in the Realm of Light or that they're stuck in the Realm of Darkness; it's just that Riku was stuck. Everyone else weren't, so where they ended up at lacks meaning and thus isn't usable as an argument.

 

[Key of Valor]

Good response, I was trying to see
if you would reasonably separate the
concepts,which is what you basically
did, so well done.

It's still unlikely that Sora would
grow without a vessel, which is
one of my four primary reasons
why Sora wouldn't be solely a
heart.

However, Sora's growth is the
only strong contradiction but
even that contradiction, though
logical, is still theoretical.

But yeah, you did well to defend
your theory which why I'll cease
to oppose it as entirely illogical.
However I still value my theory
as a more likely scenario.

 

[Smile]

I'm still trying to understand how you can call Nomura quotes "theories", but it is a small miracle I got you to admit that I was even possibly right so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Key of Valor]

Well I always thought it was possible,
but most who I have discussed this with
had little to no logic to defend it, and also
refused to recognize the possible flaws in
this theory.

I am not aware of any Nomura quote that
supports that Sora didn't have a vessel, but
if one does so exist, then please post it and
this debate can finally come to an end in your
favor.

 

[Smile]

I am not aware of any Nomura quote that
supports that Sora didn't have a vessel, but
if one does so exist, then please post it and
this debate can finally come to an end in your
favor.

I still say that's more than easily understandable from the general situation. Riku and XH both were Hearts lacking vessels, and I still fail to have seen you presenting a reasonable explanation to how Kairi could pop up a new vessel for Sora out of nowhere - who was, at the time, a Heartless, that is to say - an existence of only a Heart covered in Darkness. AtW keeps calling Roxas "Sora's Nobody", which, imo, doesn't leave much room for debate as to what Roxas is made up from. Again, the reason Namine is so vastly explained is because she needs explaining - being Kairi's Nobody that wasn't born when Kairi's Heart left her own body, she needs to be explained as to wtf she is. AtW went on pretty thoroughly saying she had all but nothing to her, and again - the fact remains that she returned to Kairi, thus giving her back Sora's vessel. Lawl wot?

I am looking for a better quote though, so consider yourself warned (though I doubt I'll find one saying Roxas really is Sora's B+S, because again - it kind of goes as a given what with him being Sora's Nobody. Also, in some unofficial translations, it gose a tad more precise imo and says that Sora's B+S were used as an intermediary - meaning just that. Namine was born because Sora's Body was becoming Roxas, and that was what gave her the push to be cast off. That's not to say that's what she's made up from).

 

[Key of Valor]

I still fail to have seen you presenting a reasonable explanation to how Kairi could pop up a new vessel for Sora out of nowhere

I personally think the healing light influenced
a physical vessel to materialize based off the
Design of Sora's heart. If darkness destroys,
is it so outrageous to suggest that light can
create, (like how Destiny Islands, which was
destroyed by darkness, was physically resotored
by light)

AtW keeps calling Roxas "Sora's Nobody", which, imo, doesn't leave much room for debate as to what Roxas is made up from.

He calls Namine Kairi's Nobody, guess there's not much
room to debate what she's composed of either (sarcasm)
But seriously, it's like I've been saying, Ansem believes
there is a key factor other than origins of vessel that
determines whose Nobody is whose. Roxas and Namine
are special Nobodies, both have a range of possibilities
of what they could be composed of or exist as.

she returned to Kairi, thus giving her back Sora's vessel. Lawl wot?

As I've said before, Kairi never needed anything from Namine,
the reason for their merging was because Namine needed to
return to her corresponding original self so that she wouldn't
disappear. I'm suggesting that Namine's vessel reverted into
nothing upon merging with Kairi.

it kind of goes as a given what with him being Sora's Nobody.

Of course Roxas is Sora's Nobody, I never said he wasn't. But in a world where Kairi's Nobody could be composed of Sora's vessel, whose to say what Roxas could be composed of?

Also, in some unofficial translations, it gose a tad more precise imo and says that Sora's B+S were used as an intermediary

That's not to say that's what she's made up from).

I understand what you're saying and agree that those words alone
do not necessarily mean Namine is composed of Sora's vessel, but
it doesn't mean she is not composed of Sora's vessel either. You
offer a respectable arguement against the Ansem Reports but I
think I have also done well to prove my point. As I have explained,
though different, both our ideas are possible and logical.

 

[Smile]

I personally think the healing light influenced
a physical vessel to materialize based off the
Design of Sora's heart. If darkness destroys,
is it so outrageous to suggest that light can
create, (like how Destiny Islands, which was
destroyed by darkness, was physically resotored
by light)

1) No basis for this whatsoever. Never before did we get to see the Light create anything.
2) Destiny Islands weren't restored by the Light. They were put back when the Darkness went away. Lack of Darkness =\= presence of Light.

He calls Namine Kairi's Nobody, guess there's not much
room to debate what she's composed of either

Because she came from Kairi's Heart, yet has no Body and Soul to her.
As stated numerous times in the Reports.

I'm suggesting that Namine's vessel reverted into
nothing upon merging with Kairi.

I'll be blunt and say that that's just stupid when looking at Sora's situation.

But in a world where Kairi's Nobody could be composed of Sora's vessel

You're about the only person who believes that, you do realize this, yes?

You
offer a respectable arguement against the Ansem Reports

*facepalms* yeah now I remember why you're on ignore.
No one's going against the Ansem Reports here. Stop thinking your view on them makes other views go against the reports, ok?

 

[Key of Valor]

Naminé emerged as Kairi's Nobody...but the body and soul necessary to exist as a Nobody belonged to Sora.

SA, I'm getting a bit tired of posting segments of Ansem Reports.
You could save me the trouble if you went back and just read
all of them. Like always, I respect your arguements (though I
don't necessarily always repsect the manner in which you
present them) however, your theory does go against the Ansem
Reports, there's no denying that.

Because she came from Kairi's Heart, yet has no Body and Soul to her.
As stated numerous times in the Reports.

So predictable. You fell for my trap. By the logic of your recent post,
you should agree that Roxas doesn't necessarily need to be composed
of Sora's vessel just because he is his Nobody. If you don't agree with
this statement, then you contradict your own reasoning.

I'll be blunt and say that that's just stupid when looking at Sora's situation.

I too will be blunt by saying that your theory
about Sora's situation is just... EDIT: On second
thought, just because you stooped to an imature
level, doesn't mean I should retaliate by doing the
same. All I'll say is that maybe you're looking at
Sora's situation wrong.

You're about the only person who believes that

It is Ansem the Wise who believes this, and I
concur with him. Your theory opposes his
hypothesis. His hypothesis makes a great
deal of sense, while in yours I see holes.
And you really think your theory is more
likely to be true than that of Ansem's?

 

[easy93]

Sora has two nobodies, Roxas and Namine. When Sora turned into a heartless, his heart and Kairi's heart escaped, creating two nobodies at the same time. This is the reason why she has control over Sora's memories. She also has the ability to control the memories of people who are involved with Sora, which is why Clone Riku's heart was crashed and everyone forgot about Sora, with the exception of Riku. May I also add that her body is composed of Sora's, since Kairi didn't turn into a heartless, her body and mind remained intact, but when Sora turned into a heartless, his body split into to seperate entities, Roxas and Namine. I hope that my explanation was clear and helped out in this argument.