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Nobodies With Hearts



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Axel's Heart

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i dont think either roxas and axel have hearts but because roxas is special both feel as thought they do. As for xion well we know squat about her but assuming she is a nobody i would says she does not have one. I think the chance of her having a heart is less then both roxas' and axel's chance.
 

Key of Valor

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Lifes.Lover said:
And there can't be contradictions? There is no such thing as a rule that is cut and dry completely. There are shades of gray to everything, and thus not everything can be encompassed into a rule. Therefore, that's why we have exceptions. Because there's more to rules than what we see. But the base of the rule stays the same. Body + Soul - Heart= Nobody.

Logically, there can't be contradictions to the true rules. It's like this, when someone loses their heart,
their heart becomes a Heartless. This is a basic rule established early in the series. However, then we
learn of the PoH and how when they lose their hearts they don't turn into Heartless. This doesn't brake
the rule for no reason. There is a reason why this opposes the established rule. Since there is a reason
for the occurrence, even though the rules say it can't happen, then the rules need to be revised. So
now the rule is if someone with a heart with darkness in it loses said heart, then that heart becomes a
Heartless. Basically when rules are faced with contradiction, small changes of the rules become
necessary to explain events logically.

Lifes.Lover said:
Where does it say that Roxas is the only one who doesn't want his heart back?

It says that Roxas is not sure if he wants his heart back in Another Report, (somewhere in time...)

Lifes.Lover said:
Not really. I said nothing about fake emotions. Once Roxas is back inside, and fully tied to Sora, he has the feelings that Sora feels. Therefore, he attaches the real emotion that Sora uses to the memories he has of what he once had. Therefore, fake emotions have no basis on anything.

And this says nothing about my soul having imprinted memories emotions on it, thus letting him have emotions theory.

You for the most part are agreeing with what I said (or at least it seems you are)

Lifes.Lover said:
I understood what you were saying perfectly well. However, you're not understanding what I'm saying, it looks like. You brought the theory and it's relation to Roxas into a debate that we're having. You only did it for relating purposes, but when you bring something into a debate, you should expect it to be debated. However, since you weren't, and I don't want to debate about it, considering that it's just a 'relation', you should not have brought the theory into the debate at all.

I didn't intend for it to be any part of any such debate.
I referenced the theory as more of a side note.
People are allowed to reference their theories without
actually posting them (points to 'Key to Ven's Identity' thread)

Lifes.Lover said:
I think you are close-minded about me, to some degree. Because you read that I say that Roxas cannot have a heart due to his Nobody status, and the rules of the Nobodies stand true for me, you don't think at all to ask me about why I would think Roxas has a heart.

Here's how it stands with me. Just because I think Roxas doesn't have a heart due to his Nobody status, does not mean that I believe that Roxas is a Nobody. If you have read other posts of mine before, you'd know that I believe strongly in Nomura's abilities and like for twisting the plot on us and that if he has done it twice or more times on us before, then he will once again.

Therefore, it is not above my thinking to believe that, during one of the new games, Nomura will give us a plot twist and say something to the affect that either Naminé, Roxas, or Xion are not, in fact, actually Nobodies at all.

Perhaps Ansem the Wise isn't as wise as we thought, and he didn't actually have a clue what he was writing about, and perhaps Roxas and/or Naminé were mistaken for Nobodies when, in fact, they are not.

However, until this comes up, I believe fully in the rules that we have been given so far, and as such, Roxas is still a Nobody, and therefore cannot have a heart. I'm not goint to throw the rulebook out the window just because I want to believe Roxas has a heart, come hell or high water.

I suppose, in your eyes, that still makes me close-minded, doesn't it?

I made the comment about close mindness because you said
you had no intention to read my theory. I always make an effort
to read over new theories and give each one proper consideration,
even if the theory is posted by a member with a double digit post
count, or if the theory is based off something that I don't necessarily
believe but agree it is logically possible. I didn't mean that you were
completely closed minded, what I meant that instead of considering
my theory, you'd rather purposely not read it for the sole reason of
not bothering to observe my views and ideas. So maybe that reason
for you not considering read my theory is a tiny bit closed minded.
(However, if you were not to read it because it is too long, then
that's an acceptable reason)

Naturally though, I too am inclined to be closed minded at times as
well, and since I'm such an opposer of thinking, I am thankful when
I am cirticized for it.
 

chrisco571

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Yes I Agree, They are SPECIAL NOBODIES! This means they ARE NOT NOBODIES no where are their any quotes says they are nobodies. No where does it show they are ACCUALLY nobodies. Seriously people. Until we learn in 358/2 days how Roxas was really born no one knows for sure.
 

Muse

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Yes I Agree, They are SPECIAL NOBODIES! This means they ARE NOT NOBODIES no where are their any quotes says they are nobodies. No where does it show they are ACCUALLY nobodies. Seriously people. Until we learn in 358/2 days how Roxas was really born no one knows for sure.

Roxas was born the same way a normal Nobody would be born- Sora willingly accepted the darkness and turned into a Heartless and his body and soul went on to become Roxas, otherwise known as a Nobody. The only things that really make him special is the fact that he wields a Keyblade, despite not having a Heart, and that he has no memories of his other.
 

Insomniac

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Yes I Agree, They are SPECIAL NOBODIES! This means they ARE NOT NOBODIES no where are their any quotes says they are nobodies. No where does it show they are ACCUALLY nobodies. Seriously people. Until we learn in 358/2 days how Roxas was really born no one knows for sure.

*FACEPALM*

Another Report said:
At the same time, Roxas awoke in Twilight Town, and Naminé awoke in Castle Oblivion.

Roxas was born when Sora released Kairi's Heart from his Body and Soul. He does not have a Heart. If he did then they would call him a complete being and not a Nobody. Special Nobody does not mean that they are not Nobodies it means the circumstances under which they were born are "Special."
 
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Lifes.Lover

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Logically, there can't be contradictions to the true rules. It's like this, when someone loses their heart,
their heart becomes a Heartless. This is a basic rule established early in the series. However, then we
learn of the PoH and how when they lose their hearts they don't turn into Heartless. This doesn't brake
the rule for no reason. There is a reason why this opposes the established rule. Since there is a reason
for the occurrence, even though the rules say it can't happen, then the rules need to be revised. So
now the rule is if someone with a heart with darkness in it loses said heart, then that heart becomes a
Heartless. Basically when rules are faced with contradiction, small changes of the rules become
necessary to explain events logically.

Agree to disagree? Because if not, we'll be stuck here for ever running around in circles, because I just don't believe in what you believe.

It says that Roxas is not sure if he wants his heart back in Another Report, (somewhere in time...)

Well, I'm gonna have to go and find that. Because I do not remember that at all.

You for the most part are agreeing with what I said (or at least it seems you are)

Yes, because what you were saying was a recap of what I was saying. Except that there was only a small part of it that you got wrong. You said that the false emotions of Roxas' were imprinting on the heart. I was saying that Roxas didn't attach emotions to the memories until he had fused with Sora, making them real emotions, and thus why Sora was able to feel wit them.

I didn't intend for it to be any part of any such debate.
I referenced the theory as more of a side note.
People are allowed to reference their theories without
actually posting them (points to 'Key to Ven's Identity' thread)

I know that you didn't intend for it to be a part of the debate. However, when I'm in a debate, I take everything apart, even if it's just a side note. Because, to my way of thinking, if you put it in, that means you wanted it there, and there was a reason for it. Yes, I know people are allowed to reference their own theories... to some degree. They can't advertise them. But, I've never heard of this thread that you're talking about. I don't actually go into every theory on here, for all that my post-count belies that.

I made the comment about close mindness because you said
you had no intention to read my theory. I always make an effort
to read over new theories and give each one proper consideration,
even if the theory is posted by a member with a double digit post
count, or if the theory is based off something that I don't necessarily
believe but agree it is logically possible. I didn't mean that you were
completely closed minded, what I meant that instead of considering
my theory, you'd rather purposely not read it for the sole reason of
not bothering to observe my views and ideas. So maybe that reason
for you not considering read my theory is a tiny bit closed minded.
(However, if you were not to read it because it is too long, then
that's an acceptable reason)

Naturally though, I too am inclined to be closed minded at times as
well, and since I'm such an opposer of thinking, I am thankful when
I am cirticized for it.

I had no intention to read it because I thought that you had already posted the theory, and I don't make a habit of going back and reading old theories. However, if you haven't posted it yet, that's another thing. I'm sorry if I made the wrong assumption. I wasn't going to read it because it was by you (I don't actually hate you that much) but rather that I don't read old theories.

Yes I Agree, They are SPECIAL NOBODIES! This means they ARE NOT NOBODIES no where are their any quotes says they are nobodies. No where does it show they are ACCUALLY nobodies. Seriously people. Until we learn in 358/2 days how Roxas was really born no one knows for sure.

*facepalm*

If you think that we won't know till 358/2 Days, then why are you posting saying that you're sure they're not Nobodies, even though the fact that the Nobodies in the title of the Special Nobodies, shows that they're Nobodies?
 

Tanloxd

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I'm not sure if someone mentioned this already but in Re: Chain of memories doesn't Axel, after releasing namine, hold his chest as if in shock like he was actually feeling something where he should have a heart. Why would he fake it if there was noone around to fool. Just a thought either way I'm still not convinced he has a heart.
 

strugglechamp

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This forum is confusing me. I mean I get the point of all the post but how can nobodies have hearts. If they have hearts they wouldn't be nobodies. But in KHII Diz did say that Roxas had a heart.........??????? IDK.
 

Smile

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I'm not sure if someone mentioned this already but in Re: Chain of memories doesn't Axel, after releasing namine, hold his chest as if in shock like he was actually feeling something where he should have a heart. Why would he fake it if there was noone around to fool. Just a thought either way I'm still not convinced he has a heart.

Nobodies are never acting to fool others - they first and foremost wish to fool themselves.

This forum is confusing me. I mean I get the point of all the post but how can nobodies have hearts. If they have hearts they wouldn't be nobodies. But in KHII Diz did say that Roxas had a heart.........??????? IDK.

Axel said that, and Namine seemed to believe in it strongly too.
Also, Roxas is a Special Nobody. Going by the issue of Namine's birth, that means he can be just about anything as long as he's not Sora's Heart or Heartless.
 

Sacred X

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Nobodies are never acting to fool others - they first and foremost wish to fool themselves.

I don't agree with that. Xemnas pretended to feel emotion near the end of KH2, which was implied to throw Sora off. Everyone knows Xemnas is the last person who'd want to fool himself.

Kingdom Hearts II said:
Xemnas: That may be... However, what other choice might we have had?

Sora: Just give it a rest! You're Nobodies! You don't even exist! You're not sad about anything!

While members of the Organization may pretend to have emotions to fool themselves, the statement "Nobodies are never acting to fool others" is false.
 

Smile

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I don't agree with that. Xemnas pretended to feel emotion near the end of KH2, which was implied to throw Sora off. Everyone knows Xemnas is the last person who'd want to fool himself.

1) He's a son of a bitch. That means he'd fool Sora, but for the sake of fooling Sora to get advantage of him, not pretend he has emotions.
2) Well, that's something I regret mentioning earlier. There's either utter denial or complete acceptance - either you're Demyx and you say you do have a Heart, or you're Xemnas and know you don't and will stop at nothing to get it.
Axel's leaning more towards the denial part, which is why I said what I said.

While members of the Organization may pretend to have emotions to fool themselves, the statement "Nobodies are never acting to fool others" is false.

What I meant was that again - not as a goal.
If Xemnas was fooling Sora, it was to get the better of him, not because that's a Nobody's way.
The only one who ever came anywhere near that, fooling others to make believe she has an existence, was Naminé, but I hardly need to go into how special that girl is.
Nobodies don't go convincing people they have Hearts because they're Nobodies. They'll do it because that's their "personalities", but not to make themselves feel better about any of it, like Axel did when he tried staying next to Roxas.
Xemnas has no need of that kind of attitude.
 

Sacred X

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1) He's a son of a bitch. That means he'd fool Sora, but for the sake of fooling Sora to get advantage of him, not pretend he has emotions.
2) Well, that's something I regret mentioning earlier. There's either utter denial or complete acceptance - either you're Demyx and you say you do have a Heart, or you're Xemnas and know you don't and will stop at nothing to get it.
Axel's leaning more towards the denial part, which is why I said what I said.

Not exactly sure what you're saying because it seems like what you say agrees with me, but then you say you disagree. Based on #1, yes, he is trying to fool Sora, and in order to do that, he was pretending to have emotions. Not to fool himself, but to fool Sora. As for #2, I don't want to be an asshole and try to find a hole in everything you say, but you can also be Larxene who knows she doesn't have a heart and doesn't want one.

novel said:
Larxene dropped her head for a minute before saying, "A heart is not really necessary. Having a heart is painful. I'm fine with the way things are."



What I meant was that again - not as a goal.
If Xemnas was fooling Sora, it was to get the better of him, not because that's a Nobody's way.
The only one who ever came anywhere near that, fooling others to make believe she has an existence, was Naminé, but I hardly need to go into how special that girl is.
Nobodies don't go convincing people they have Hearts because they're Nobodies. They'll do it because that's their "personalities", but not to make themselves feel better about any of it, like Axel did when he tried staying next to Roxas.
Xemnas has no need of that kind of attitude.

I only looked at your statement and I wasn't following your conversation with that person. I am just talking about the statement itself, which may be why some of what you're saying is a bit hard to follow. I'm not saying a Nobody pretends to have emotion just to fool themselves or just to fool others. I believe that's up to the Nobody themselves. There are Nobodies like Demyx, Nobodies like Xemnas, Nobodies like Larxene, Nobodies like Dusks, etc.

As for the Namine bit, wasn't she forced to do that against her will and not of her own desire?
 

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Not exactly sure what you're saying because it seems like what you say agrees with me, but then you say you disagree. Based on #1, yes, he is trying to fool Sora, and in order to do that, he was pretending to have emotions. Not to fool himself, but to fool Sora. As for #2, I don't want to be an asshole and try to find a hole in everything you say, but you can also be Larxene who knows she doesn't have a heart and doesn't want one.

But that's where the entire difference lies.
Xemnas fooled Sora to try and get Sora to think he had emotions. Why? So Sora'd be left wide open.
What you said was that he did it to somehow make believe he had a Heart and emotions by fooling others.
Xemnas pulled a dirty trick, he didn't pull a Nobody trick on him.

I only looked at your statement and I wasn't following your conversation with that person. I am just talking about the statement itself, which may be why some of what you're saying is a bit hard to follow. I'm not saying a Nobody pretends to have emotion just to fool themselves or just to fool others. I believe that's up to the Nobody themselves. There are Nobodies like Demyx, Nobodies like Xemnas, Nobodies like Larxene, Nobodies like Dusks, etc.

Which is where your claim thus loses kind of credibility. Ok so they fool in general. Axel is the kind who fools himself though, and if they go the distance - it's because they're nobodies, not just messing around like Xemnas.

As for the Namine bit, wasn't she forced to do that against her will and not of her own desire?

While I'm against calling Namine a conspiring witch, she is a lonely girl that would've received anything she ever wanted had Sora believed she was real.
That aside, I was talking more about attitude and course of action, not reasoning.
 

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But that's where the entire difference lies.
Xemnas fooled Sora to try and get Sora to think he had emotions. Why? So Sora'd be left wide open.
What you said was that he did it to somehow make believe he had a Heart and emotions by fooling others.
Xemnas pulled a dirty trick, he didn't pull a Nobody trick on him.

I think I'm beginning to understand you. You're saying that I think Nobodies, or Xemnas, try to fool others into having a heart just for the sake of it? No, I think we're on the wrong page. I believe that option is left completely up to the Nobody themself. I don't believe there's a "just one" answer that all Nobodies have to follow.


Which is where your claim thus loses kind of credibility. Ok so they fool in general. Axel is the kind who fools himself though, and if they go the distance - it's because they're nobodies, not just messing around like Xemnas.

Not saying they fool in general either. Look at Saix. Again, I think that's all up to the Nobody themselves.
 

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I think I'm beginning to understand you. You're saying that I think Nobodies, or Xemnas, try to fool others into having a heart just for the sake of it? No, I think we're on the wrong page. I believe that option is left completely up to the Nobody themself. I don't believe there's a "just one" answer that all Nobodies have to follow.

Not saying they fool in general either. Look at Saix. Again, I think that's all up to the Nobody themselves.

In that case, I'll withdraw my earlier statement from being general, and say specifically about Axel as was said back then -

Axel was fooling himself. Thus, even when alone, he was pulling off an act.
There.
 

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[/quote]Not saying they fool in general either. Look at Saix. Again, I think that's all up to the Nobody themselves.[/QUOTE]

Nobodies have minds and act on their own free will. Axel felt the tie between Sora's heart and Roxas( Roxas does not have the heart), so he wanted to be close to him because he wants his own heart and being with Roxas made him feel that way.
 

keybladelegacy

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Eox said:
Nobodies have minds and act on their own free will. Axel felt the tie between Sora's heart and Roxas( Roxas does not have the heart), so he wanted to be close to him because he wants his own heart and being with Roxas made him feel that way.

Well all the organzation knew their was a connection between roxas and sora. And well sora is roxas's heart so i would guess that the connection between them gives roxas emotions.
 
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