No one dies in KH

[Chrono Mizaki]

Who's putting Nomura on a pedestal and saying he's above criticism? o_0;

At a glance, Sephiroth0812.

 

[strugglechamp]

IDK. In my opinion, the fact that no one really dies takes some tension and emotion out of the game. Pretty much every main character that dies comes back So when I see someone die, I just assume they'll be back in the next game.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Who's putting Nomura on a pedestal and saying he's above criticism? o_0;

All I'm saying is, I'm sick of this "no death in KH" nonsense. There is. There clearly is. They're clearly not going in a direction in which death does not exist, because Birth by Sleep made death a far more important concept than it had ever been in the KH frame story before (instead of just showing up in Disney worlds).

And I find it frankly absurd that the Western response to "I'm just going to steal your Christian concept of death as sleep now, okay?" is "no one dies ever? How childish!" It's really nothing new and unique for KH -- it's literally two thousand years older than that. o_0

Not to mention it got mentioned by several character's in-universe. I also don't get where the notion "no death = now we get instant mass revival" comes from.
That is clearly not how it is intended, even all the revived worlds in KH 1 had a very hard set of conditions to fulfill, there's no way we will get a cheap mass-revival.

At a glance, Sephiroth0812.

If I were you I would look at the whole context of the discussion before jumping to conclusions.
I was neither putting Nomura "on a pedestal" as you apparently read out of a statement I made way back on the second page nor did I say he can't be criticized.
What I did point out is that he can't be ignored like another member suggested just because some of his set rules aren't to someone's taste.

IDK. In my opinion, the fact that no one really dies takes some tension and emotion out of the game. Pretty much every main character that dies comes back So when I see someone die, I just assume they'll be back in the next game.

You haven't read the whole discussion, have you?
The notion "no one dies in KH" is false, the whole definition is wrong.

 

[Ikkin]

At a glance, Sephiroth0812.

Not seeing it. He's mostly just making reasonable arguments from canon, as far as I can tell. Detractors aren't always valid about their criticisms, so you can't just assume that defending Nomura is irrational fanboy defensiveness. =P

 

[The_Dream_Shield]

Yeah I agree with Sephie, and I also agree that we came to the conclusion that the whole no one dies thing is completely wrong a while ago, we discussed the definitions already.

 

[chasespicer056]

Re: Non one dies in KH

How else are they supposed to get rid of Xehanort once and for all?

What I've always thought is that Sora is going to use Kingdom Hearts to wipe out Xehanort's existence permanently.

I'm also noticing that people are assuming the "realm of dreams" to be the "realm of sleep". These two places may not be one in the same. The realm of dreams may simply be a place where all the worlds Sora couldn't save have gone, as Yen Sid explains in the newest trailer, while the realm of sleep is an afterlife from which there is no escape if one dies a normal death without Heartless or Nobodies (such as Clayton).

 

[blueheart]

All I'm saying is, I'm sick of this "no death in KH" nonsense. There is. There clearly is.

How is that so? The people that died, Org13, clearly had their hearts and bodies eliminated, they died. Since they're coming back from the dead, since they, you know, died, isn't it technically, "no death in KH"? No defeat in KH is permanent now I guess. Since it apparently has to be under "special circumstances", why do some get that and others don't?

How is MX going to be permanently gone? Wouldn't he come back again since he already did under these "special circumstances"?

 

[venomblade]

Nobody dies? Uh, Eraqus? Well he was actually struck down/killed, but I guess you could argue since his heart lies within Terra that he isn't really dead. Damnit Nomura!

 

[Ikkin]

What I've always thought is that Sora is going to use Kingdom Hearts to wipe out Xehanort's existence permanently.

Not a bad theory, but that kind of requires the existence of death as a concept.

How is that so? The people that died, Org13, clearly had their hearts and bodies eliminated, they died. Since they're coming back from the dead, since they, you know, died, isn't it technically, "no death in KH"? No defeat in KH is permanent now I guess. Since it apparently has to be under "special circumstances", why do some get that and others don't?

Organization XIII were "killed" as Nobodies, though. I'm not entirely convinced that the Nobody is the same physical stuff as the original Somebody's body (since Nobodies can be created that look very different from their Others, like Roxas and Namine), so much as they're the same metaphysical stuff -- in any case, eliminating a Nobody does not actually destroy the body and soul, but frees them to rejoin with their original heart. The easiest way to think of this is, when a Nobody is destroyed, the body and soul stay together, whereas death only occurs if the soul leaves the body.

If Xehanort were to be killed in his complete form, his soul would leave his body, and his body would die, permanently. There wouldn't be any Nobody created, since there's no soul there for it to function, and his heart would "sleep." Presumably, defeating him for good will probably involve his heart being annihilated through some metaphysical anomaly, though, because no one would actually believe he was gone otherwise. XD

 

[Samhain]

i really thought Master Eraqus was going to die which would have made the scene so much emotional till at the end we find out more of this bullshit how ME's heart is in Terra and all that mumbo jumbo bs

it would have been better if ME was just dead "sleep" w/e

 

[Llennoco]

Re: Non one dies in KH

I like the part when Vexen went boom.

Same.

Also, this makes me wonder. If Axel could come back as Lea, presumably because Sora killed his heartless somewhere and allowed him to reunite with his heart, does that mean everyone in the organization can come back? Does it mean nothing when you "kill" a nobody? No pun intended?

 

[Sign]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Same.

Also, this makes me wonder. If Axel could come back as Lea, presumably because Sora killed his heartless somewhere and allowed him to reunite with his heart, does that mean everyone in the organization can come back? Does it mean nothing when you "kill" a nobody? No pun intended?

Yes. If an individual's Heartless and Nobody are defeated, the original being can be reborn.

 

[Llennoco]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Yes. If an individual's Heartless and Nobody are defeated, the original being can be reborn.

I'm confused by that. When a human being loses their heart, the heart becomes a heartless, the body and soul become a nobody, right? So, nobodies are essentially bodies with souls. When the body is destroyed (well, vaporized in bubbles, darkness, etc.) doesn't that mean they no longer exist? Didn't Lexaeus or someone mention to Roxas during 358 Days how Nobodies are destroyed completely because there was nothing there to begin with? I don't understand how they can be brought back, unless the bodies merely exist somewhere else until the heart is destroyed.

 

[Sign]

Re: Non one dies in KH

I'm confused by that. When a human being loses their heart, the heart becomes a heartless, the body and soul become a nobody, right? So, nobodies are essentially bodies with souls. When the body is destroyed (well, vaporized in bubbles, darkness, etc.) doesn't that mean they no longer exist? Didn't Lexaeus or someone mention to Roxas during 358 Days how Nobodies are destroyed completely because there was nothing there to begin with? I don't understand how they can be brought back, unless the bodies merely exist somewhere else until the heart is destroyed.

In that case, here's an excerpt from the Director's Secret Report XIII:

VIII - When the Heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after Heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the Heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

 

[Llennoco]

Re: Non one dies in KH

When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after Heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the Heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

So, the nobodies can only return to human form if their hearts were already liberated when their Nobody "bodies" were destroyed. And considering their hearts could be within any of the random masses of heartless that Sora defeated over two games, we can pretty much assume they were all freed.

Sooo, the entire organization can come back then. -_-

 

[Sign]

Re: Non one dies in KH

So, the nobodies can only return to human form if their hearts were already liberated when their Nobody "bodies" were destroyed. And considering their hearts could be within any of the random masses of heartless that Sora defeated over two games, we can pretty much assume they were all freed.

Sooo, the entire organization can come back then. -_-

Well, not in that particular order, per se. He goes on in the second paragraph that it's also possible if the Nobody was defeated prior to the Heartless, albeit more difficult perhaps.

But yes, they can all be reborn.

 

[Llennoco]

Re: Non one dies in KH

Well, not in that particular order, per se. He goes on in the second paragraph that it's also possible if the Nobody was defeated prior to the Heartless, albeit more difficult perhaps.

But yes, they can all be reborn.

Aw hell nah I did not fail at beating Xaldin 14 times only for him to come back to life on me. -___-

So the only way for someone to actually legitimately never come back is to kill them? As in, soul leaving body? Well, that's never gonna happen, seeing as this is a kid's game.

Don't even get me started on Repliku. He's back too, right? Wasn't he killed for real?

 

[Lancelot]

Repliku was never killed. If I remember correctly, he left Castle Oblivion of his own will, to search for "himself".

 

[Ordeith]

Repliku was never killed. If I remember correctly, he left Castle Oblivion of his own will, to search for "himself".

No, after doing so, he appeared on Riku's Twilight Town floor--then fought him, and "died" afterward.
I remember him questioning what would become of someone whose heart wasn't authentic.

 

[Llennoco]

Repliku was never killed. If I remember correctly, he left Castle Oblivion of his own will, to search for "himself".

[video=youtube;9_fBSyPtt-Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fBSyPtt-Y[/video]

Nope....he's....he's pretty dead.

Which makes the fact that's he's back in KH3D ridic. Nobody stays dead. This is like Superman.