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Zettaflare

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I'm not very enthused at the idea of a non-Sora KH game, much less a KH game where you frequently switch characters. Your opinion may differ, but the gameplay has always been miserable in games where we switch between characters. In all the dev time that could have been spent making the combat good, it was instead used on making multiple characters work.. And we got what we got.

I think Osaka has learned a lot, and Re:Mind changed my feelings about them considerably, but deadlines really do still be deadlines.

And at the core of it all... I don't want more KH games that don't have Donald and Goofy! They HARD carry every cutscene they're in.
Lol, kind of a shame Sora didnt accept Donald and Goofy's help to save Kairi. I mean they'd be dead alongside him but at least they would still be together
 

Launchpad

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Lol, kind of a shame Sora didnt accept Donald and Goofy's help to save Kairi. I mean they'd be dead alongside him but at least they would still be together

IDK man, Nomura's refusal to use Donald and Goofy in certain games feels like the KH series being ashamed of itself in microcosm. Embrace the camp, Nomura.
 

SuperNova

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Lol, kind of a shame Sora didnt accept Donald and Goofy's help to save Kairi. I mean they'd be dead alongside him but at least they would still be together
Naughty main characters get a timeout in the Final World.
 

cakito123

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I think it is a great decision to not have SDG in every KH game. I think having them in KH3 again after so many years was really great, specially because in the other games this trio wasn't a thing. If you put too much special moments in every title, it will become less and less special the more you use the same concept.

Also, variable in a franchise that has a lot of games like kingdom hearts is really important. Having Aqua Terra and Ventus wasn't better then having SDG, but it was certainly different and a breath of fresh air to playing the games. It'd be really tiresome to have the same formulas over and over again, and I love the fact that numbered KH titles always means SDG saving the day and concluding a chapter, too.

Just want to point out something I see a lot of people talking about in a way that makes me a little irritated.
Which is valorizing the lack of experimentation. When you do something different and new in a franchise, things will certainly have some design mistakes or at least some kind of lacking vision for the first time, after all you are experimenting and changing the schemes a bit - but that doesn't mean it can't be improved on later, on a update or in a second game with the same core idea.
For example, If playing as Aqua/Terra/Ventus wasn't really fun in BBS for some reason, they have to indetify those problems and make the game design choices a little better next time, not rule out the idea of switching characters entirely. The problem wasn't in the characters switching, ok?

I really don't like when people talk like "oh, but I hated the Drop system in DDD, so I think it shouldn't exist anymore ever again"
Like, really? You don't really think that as game designers, they can't properly improve a game by just adjusting some rules and whatnot?! You want every KH games like KH2 and 3 forever just beause you like it and it is working??? THIS IS ART. YOU DON'T GET TO PAINT THE SAME PAINTING AGAIN JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE HAPPENED TO LIKE IT. YOU MUST CHANGE AND EVOLVE AND REMAKE AND REWORK AND UPDATE URGH

sorry people, got a litle heated, I'm a game designer asdklsjadlks
 

MATGSY

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I really don't like when people talk like "oh, but I hated the Drop system in DDD, so I think it shouldn't exist anymore ever again"
Like, really? You don't really think that as game designers, they can't properly improve a game by just adjusting some rules and whatnot?! You want every KH games like KH2 and 3 forever just beause you like it and it is working??? THIS IS ART. YOU DON'T GET TO PAINT THE SAME PAINTING AGAIN JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE HAPPENED TO LIKE IT. YOU MUST CHANGE AND EVOLVE AND REMAKE AND REWORK AND UPDATE URGH

sorry people, got a litle heated, I'm a game designer asdklsjadlks
You're not wrong on the general principle but Nah man, there is no salvaging Drop. Players don't like time limits, players don't like having control taking away from them. The drop system's foundation involves both of these. There is no degree of tweaking possible to make it not hated. Sometimes a bad idea is just a bad idea.
 
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Sign

trapped in revamp hell
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I feel like we go through a cycle.

X games playing as other characters --> people asking to play as Sora again ---> Sora game ---> why did we want this Sora is ugh pls go away for a while

Rinse and repeat.
 

SuperSaiyanSora

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I feel like we go through a cycle.

X games playing as other characters --> people asking to play as Sora again ---> Sora game ---> why did we want this Sora is ugh pls go away for a while

Rinse and repeat.

Boy, I remember when Sora hate-threads were a thing... That was a strange, strange time indeed.

This is why while listening to the fanbase is important, you should stick to your creative vision. FFXV had a bunch of fan feedback, and as a result, it never really stuck the landing in where it should've. That's why I like that Nomura isn't walking back any of the Versus XIII stuff. If that's the game Nomura and the Osaka Team want to make, then they should make it.
 

Elysium

Be Wiser Than the Serpent
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I feel like we go through a cycle.

X games playing as other characters --> people asking to play as Sora again ---> Sora game ---> why did we want this Sora is ugh pls go away for a while

Rinse and repeat.
I've noticed the trend, too. For me, SDG will always be preferable to anything else, and if we have to feature other characters, it would be better to have Sora with another character available like CoM or 3D than one where Sora isn’t available at all.
 
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SuperNova

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I've noticed the trend, too. For me, SDG will always be preferable to anything else, and if we have to feature other characters, it would be better to have Sora with another character available like CoM or 3D than one where Sora isn’t available at all.
Honestly, I would prefer a Sora game over a non-Sora game. BBS was good but Days was a slog to get through. And while he may be a bit dumb at times, Sora brings the energy and chemistry to the Disney worlds that characters like Aqua and Riku just severely lack.
 

ZinC Podzzz

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Since Mickey, Donald, and Goofy are searching for Sora in the older Disney worlds I'm a bit curious what a game with Mickey as the playable character would be like.

That might be a good excuse to bring back Disney Castle and possibly adapt some of the old Disney shorts
Oh yeah that's true! I'd love to return to some of the really old worlds, and even as a different character! THINK OF THE NEW COSTUMES!!!
 

okhi12

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Honestly, I would prefer a Sora game over a non-Sora game. BBS was good but Days was a slog to get through. And while he may be a bit dumb at times, Sora brings the energy and chemistry to the Disney worlds that characters like Aqua and Riku just severely lack.
You have a point there. How the characters' personalities and way of acting blend with the Disney worlds. Sora, Ventus and probably Kairi are easygoing and their interactions with Disney characters would be much more lovable. Aqua, Terra and Riku are more mature characters but that also means rather boring interactions. I mean, there could be exceptions -Aqua's reaction to Zack asking for a date with her- but they are not as prone to those silly but lovable moments.
What intrigues me most is how would RAX act in Disney Worlds now that they are people with hearts instead of emo-ish nobodies. Lea is friendly and has charisma, but Roxas' and Xion's personalities are not that developed yet. Unlike Sora, Roxas at the beginning of KH2 seemed to be quite a serene, reflexive guy when he was in the other Twilight Town with HPO but there's not much that can be said about him in 358/2 days because he was zombie-like or troubled with his existential crisis, same for Xion. I really want to see how they behave as normal people.

Oh yeah that's true! I'd love to return to some of the really old worlds, and even as a different character! THINK OF THE NEW COSTUMES!!!
Mickey's form in Atlantica, Halloween Town or the Pride Lands. I'm so ready, lol.
 

SweetYetSalty

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What intrigues me most is how would RAX act in Disney Worlds now that they are people with hearts instead of emo-ish nobodies. Lea is friendly and has charisma, but Roxas' and Xion's personalities are not that developed yet. Unlike Sora, Roxas at the beginning of KH2 seemed to be quite a serene, reflexive guy when he was in the other Twilight Town with HPO but there's not much that can be said about him in 358/2 days because he was zombie-like or troubled with his existential crisis, same for Xion. I really want to see how they behave as normal people.
Stop it! I want that so badly, and I don't want to be disappointed when I don't get it. There are so many Disney Worlds and characters I would love to see RAX visiting and interacting with, it's not even funny. So many themes I want them to observe and join in on. Ugh! Give me my KH dream game!
 

Twilight Lumiair

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Stop it! I want that so badly, and I don't want to be disappointed when I don't get it. There are so many Disney Worlds and characters I would love to see RAX visiting and interacting with, it's not even funny. So many themes I want them to observe and join in on. Ugh! Give me my KH dream game!
Same. But do you really think the series in it's current form could do that idea justice? Especially after how poorly KH3 handled them as a whole? Serious question here.

In a perfect world, RAX would've gotten more screentime and proper development during KH3 to help round out their arcs, personalities, dynamics, trajectories, etc. But that's not what happened. At this point, I'm honestly praying that they don't touch RAX that much, since shoving them into the unfolding chaos that is the Fortellers Saga (as the fandom has dubbed it) could easily muddle their arcs and characterization even further. Even if I'm not as invested in KH, that's still something I don't want to see happen.

It's funny really. Not that long I was saying the total opposite. That I wish more people would be interested in a RAX sequel game. But now, after ReMind, it's become painfully clear that Nomura has NO idea what he wants to do with these characters. I'm honestly at a point where I'd rather just be able to freely imagine/head-cannon a perfect continuation of their stories, instead of seeing them get so... bizarrely written again.
 
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cakito123

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You're not wrong on the general principle but Nah man, there is no salvaging Drop. Players don't like time limits, players don't like having control taking away from them. Te drop system's foundation involves both of these. There is no degree of tweaking possible to make it not hated. Sometimes a bad idea is just a bad idea.

Yeah, but a bad idea is mostly created with some intention in mind. You need to look deep so you can find the answers to a problem, and not dismiss the idea entirely:
The Timed Drop gauge was created because they wanted to add a sense of thrill to the player by changing characters, and the fact they made it a TIMED gauge was the core problem, and also the fact you couldn't really do much to change your present gauge. Every time the gauge was at the end the only thing you could do to increase it was by using a Drop-me-not item inserting it in your Deck, so yeah, it was really frustrating to see the gauge ending and being almost completely powerless about it.

If they ever make a drop gauge again, I hope they make a system where the gauge increases and decreases through something else, like killing enemies for increasing and taking damage to decreasing, maybe. The player should be able to manipulate this gauge in A MULTITUDE of ways, always with a Reward/Punishment system in mind.

There, identified the problem! Ideas on how to improve (some are probably bad, but you can only know that by testing a lot, so I'm brainstorming):

Maybe creating more Spirits could increase your gauge.
If you heal you and your Dream eaters in-battle it also increases.
The more enemies there is in battle, the faster your gauge will decrease,
but if you kill them, they drop Drop-me-not-Orbs that can refill a little of the gauge.

Anyway, I don't have the time to think in more ways they could make the gauge more dynamic and maneauverable, those things can take a lot of time to analyze it since you have to look at the entire battle system, but the point is, if you can indentify what was the PROBLEM with the EXECUTION of the idea, you can always make the idea a lot better next time. Don't jus kill them after their debut. Evolve it!

english is not my first language, I hope I typed everything understandable enough
 

drew0512

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In a perfect world, RAX would've gotten more screentime and proper development during KH3 to help round out their arcs, personalities, dynamics, trajectories, etc.
I'm curious, why? That doesn't sound like something KH3 was supposed to do at all to me
 

Twilight Lumiair

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I'm curious, why? That doesn't sound like something KH3 was supposed to do at all to me.
The point was just that they were poorly handled. KH3 wasn't obligated to do anything beyond the bear minimum. The question I was proposing was if the current handling of their characters is good enough to warrant expecting a truly satisfying continuation to their stories.

Because, simply put, if RAX are going to be mainstay protagonist in this series (and are expected to potentially carry future titles), then they NEED to be better defined, more fleshed out, and be consistently characterized. In addition to leaving subplots and certain character dynamics up in the air, or just dropping them completely, RAX (though more specifically Roxas and Xion) got very little to no groundwork for new personal arcs that they can work through and grow from. What are their views on the Keyblade at this point? Do they still see it as a burden, or have they embraced their roles as Keyblade Weilders and protectors of the realm? This was a very important facet of their characters that's not touched on at all by KH3, and it's important in establishing where they're currently at (as people) in the series. Are they in a state where they're still aiming to have normal lives, or are they ok with risking everything they just gained for the sake of doing what's right? What kind of people are they when they're finally free from the shackles of being Nobodies?

Getting answers to these questions would've not only given them better conclusions to their previous arcs, but could also double as starting points for new stories surrounding them. Yet if we're looking to KH3's usage and portrayal of them as a baseline for where to place our expectations, it just seems incredibly unlikely to me that we'd get anything like what @SweetYetSalty or myself actually wish for. Not that people can't be optimistic of course, but I'm curious where that optimism would be coming from. Because if this series has taught me anything, it's that just cause there's potential, doesn't mean it'll be utilized.
 

Elysium

Be Wiser Than the Serpent
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You have a point there. How the characters' personalities and way of acting blend with the Disney worlds. Sora, Ventus and probably Kairi are easygoing and their interactions with Disney characters would be much more lovable. Aqua, Terra and Riku are more mature characters but that also means rather boring interactions. I mean, there could be exceptions -Aqua's reaction to Zack asking for a date with her- but they are not as prone to those silly but lovable moments.
I agree that Sora is better than any other character with the Disney characters, but, to be fair, I thought Aqua and Terra were better than Ventus. I loved their interactions with Cinderella anyway.
 
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Zettaflare

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I agree that Sora is better than any other character with the Disney characters, but, to be fair, i thought Aqua and Terra were better than Ventus. I loved their interactions with Cinderella anyway.
Terra randomly bringing up darkness in response to Cinderella's sadness over her torn dress was pretty funny.
 

MATGSY

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Yeah, but a bad idea is mostly created with some intention in mind. You need to look deep so you can find the answers to a problem, and not dismiss the idea entirely:
The Timed Drop gauge was created because they wanted to add a sense of thrill to the player by changing characters, and the fact they made it a TIMED gauge was the core problem, and also the fact you couldn't really do much to change your present gauge. Every time the gauge was at the end the only thing you could do to increase it was by using a Drop-me-not item inserting it in your Deck, so yeah, it was really frustrating to see the gauge ending and being almost completely powerless about it.

If they ever make a drop gauge again, I hope they make a system where the gauge increases and decreases through something else, like killing enemies for increasing and taking damage to decreasing, maybe. The player should be able to manipulate this gauge in A MULTITUDE of ways, always with a Reward/Punishment system in mind.

There, identified the problem! Ideas on how to improve (some are probably bad, but you can only know that by testing a lot, so I'm brainstorming):

Maybe creating more Spirits could increase your gauge.
If you heal you and your Dream eaters in-battle it also increases.
The more enemies there is in battle, the faster your gauge will decrease,
but if you kill them, they drop Drop-me-not-Orbs that can refill a little of the gauge.

Anyway, I don't have the time to think in more ways they could make the gauge more dynamic and maneauverable, those things can take a lot of time to analyze it since you have to look at the entire battle system, but the point is, if you can indentify what was the PROBLEM with the EXECUTION of the idea, you can always make the idea a lot better next time. Don't jus kill them after their debut. Evolve it!

english is not my first language, I hope I typed everything understandable enough
No. Pass. I do not want to give Drop a 2nd chance. It hasn't earned that privilege. I want the products I spend my money on to be fun NOW, not be trial & error experiments for some future product they want me to also spend money on.

Don't experiment with my wallet.
 
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Launchpad

i remember the OLD khinsider
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No. Pass. I do not want to give Drop a 2nd chance. It hasn't earned that privilege. I want the products I spend my money to be fun NOW, not be trial & error experiments for some future product they want me to also spend money on.

Don't experiment with my wallet.


Retweet. We've seen what babying the team through 'experiments' gets us. A decade of mechanically confused slogs with frustrating setbacks and unfulfilling systems. It's frustrating when they drop something good in favor for something worse. I don't want to play an 'interesting idea' that didn't measure up, I want to play something additive to the previous title.

I don't think I'm being ridiculous when I say the next game should literally take KH3's EXACT gameplay system and use it as a starting point. There's really no benefit to starting from scratch when you can BUILD upon an already good system. KH3's had a serious glow-up since its release, but there are still problems with it from a DESIGN standpoint. Mob fights are still frustrating affairs where off-screen enemies can be just as aggressive as on-screen enemies. Instead of spending dev-time rebuilding combat from the ground up, spend that time making EVERY SINGLE FOE fair and satisfying to fight.
 
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