Newcomers Playing KH3

[SuperstarSaga08]

I'm pretty sure you heard about AngryJoe's opinions on playing and reviewing KH3 with no prior knowledge to the story, but on one of his tweets it seemed like he was expecting the game to cater to new players, But if you plan to play a third game in a series, especially since the story is known to be quite convoluted. That would be like playing Metal Gear Solid V without playing the previous installments. I could see him reviewing gameplay, but on the terms of story, if he gave story a bad review, would that be unfair?
He did say he would research the story, but the best way to understand the story is to play the games right?

 

[kirabook]

I don't think playing the game is necessarily even though it's the #1 best way to get the story.

Imo, the other ways to get the story are by watching LPs, watching cutscenes (with important gameplay included), or watching summary videos such as the ones Everglow is making (his slightly modified BbS movie thing is AMAZING, seriously my favorite pieces of KH fancontent out there)

For people who think like Angry Joe, listen. I know it's a lot, but KH started 16 years ago now. No, it's not unreasonable that the story is so massive because there has been a new KH game almost every year or every other year. There's a LOT of stuff packed in there.

And you aren't alone. There are plenty of KH fans who don't even care about the story. The like the gameplay and Disney. Nothing else matters. You can be one of those people and it's ok (though even still the people who don't like the story have a good idea of what's going on since they played the games)

Reading a summary is the worst most boring way to catch up. DDD and 0.2 both had them and I'm pretty sure only the most diehard of us read those. It's a LOT. And, it's BORING. If you don't want to play, that's ok. We don't live in a world without youtube anymore. You can catch up on youtube and just watch it during your free time. Please do that before playing KH3.

If you play it, I will would probably watch it. I've watched so many people play Kingdom Hearts blind. It's fun watching people experience it for the first time and I know I'm not alone. Blind LPs are super popular and I see familiar faces in the comments all the time because we just love it. It's not that the KH community is gatekeeping or trying to keep you out, it's just... jumping in at the end of the story is dumb. That's literally it. Most of us would happily watch from the beginning to the end and teach you everything you need to know.

I've always wanted to meet someone who is a KH noob and send them down their path through KH.

 

[Pokie]

You need to play the main games. Heading straight into KH3 would be like trying to start half way through a novel fantasy series and expecting to understand everything and getting mad at the author because you don't. If new players want to get into the Kingdom Hearts series, they need to start with KH1, the beginning, like with everything.

 

[Chaser]

I think it is valid for critics who haven’t touched other games to play and judge Kingdom Hearts 3. Journalists and reviewers get sent games to review in series they’ve never touched before all the time so I’m not sure why anyone would think Kingdom Hearts 3 would be the exception?
The game does have the entire history of the series resting on its shoulders, but people should be able to jump into Kingdom Hearts 3 without worrying about the plot leaving them behind.

Though, to not leave new players behind I’m not sure how Square Enix will get players caught up on the plot for those who refuse to play the HD collections. The recap video misses important details like 0.2, no doubt because it’s recent and they’d rather people actually buying that game, so I could see either some slightly stilted dialogue to remind the in-game players of who some people are or have a text recap unlock like DDD.

If there are things in-game, aside from the 20 minute recap videos, that are meant to get people caught up then I think people complaining about the plot are just going to come across as ignorant and entitled. Ignorant that after three-four attempts to get people caught up they still avoid the plot and entitled that they expect everything to be dumbed down to their level or expecting a complete reboot.

But the reality is people will be reviewing Kingdom Hearts 3 without having played the previous games. If the story itself doesn’t make a slight attempt at making people understand the basics of what’s going on and just throws the player through monologues about darkness and light without any attempts to relate it in a way for the general audience to understand, then I do think the game is failing. It isn’t up to a reviewer to judge a piece of media based on several past games, but to judge the media they are actually reviewing, in this case only Kingdom Hearts 3, as a whole.

And Kingdom Hearts 3 has more going for it than just its plot. We are all fans and want to know the conclusion to this story so the plot means a lot to us, but if critics focus entirely on that and not on anything else that the game has then they, as a critic, are failing imo. Gameplay is a big factor of the enjoyment and thrill of Kingdom Hearts 3. If a critic doesn’t review gameplay, the new mechanics, mini-games, UE4 graphics, and the overall cohesiveness of the game in favour of just reviewing the plot then they’ve absolutely lost me as a member of their audience and I won’t read their review.

For AngryJoe, I don’t think he approached the matter in a sensitive way, a way that wouldn’t have angered a lot of people. I understand the fans apprehensive nature to someone who might trash the game come January 29th, but this is a game that is more mainstream than any other Kingdom Hearts games in a long time and it will be picked up by a bunch of publications who generally don’t do work on Kingdom Hearts. We’ve seen that with the previews from E3, a bunch of websites and physical publications who haven’t been associated with Kingdom Hearts before are now publishing interviews.

Whether a reviewer has played the previous games or not, I feel, is irrelevant. I think Kingdom Hearts 3 should be judged based on how accessible it is to new and veteran gamers. The sole focus of any review should not be on the plot, and if the game gets a low score based on only the plot then it’s a review that didn’t succeed in judging each element of the game equally and fairly.

If you don’t want to see what AngryJoe publishes, then you don’t have to. I know it can be a bad look for the series, and that’s kind of his gimmick with his videos isn’t it?, but if he wants to try and alienate people several months in advance then you don’t owe him any reason to actually view his review when the time comes.

 

[Knuxpyro56]

To be honest i see this situation as an everyday thing. These days game sites will have someone review the game that knows the ins and outs of a series. Usually you won't want someone that has never played a series to review that game due to the lack of knowledge. Which is why i only focus on certain reviewers for certain games (i.e Greg Miller on MGS or Easy Allies on any JRPG). Besides i stopped watching Angry Joe's reviews after his UMvC3 review because it wasn't a review, it was a rant on why Mega Man and Venom didn't get in.

 

[gosoxtim]

agreed with chaser i'm with joe review being about the gameplay,graphics the worlds and the other stuff but if he stats talking about the plot and comlpains about not it making sesne then we told you so joe

 

[Chaser]

Besides i stopped watching Angry Joe's reviews after his UMvC3 review because it wasn't a review, it was a rant on why Mega Man and Venom didn't get in.

This is a big point of where my confusion on this whole thing comes from. Isn't Angry Joe's whole thing that he, y'know, gets angry about things he doesn't like in games?

 

[kirabook]

Angry Joe is a relic of old youtube where you created intense personalities and exaggerated your opinions for entertainment purposes. I'm sure if he reviews KH, he will completely trash on the story whether he catches up or not. He (and everyone else who has played the games or not) will no doubt love the game play.

 

[Knuxpyro56]

This is a big point of where my confusion on this whole thing comes from. Isn't Angry Joe's whole thing that he, y'know, gets angry about things he doesn't like in games?

That's what i thought as well for a long time. But apparently he does the discussion reviews.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

See, the problem I see with that is that while a game should be approachable by itself and critics do have to review other things other than the plot... the plot still is a pretty important part.
I mean, let's not kid ourselves... I seriously doubt KH III will take its time to make Xehanort and all the other vessels understandable and approachable to newcomers, or TAV or RAX relatable to whoever didn't know them. Or even justifying Sora's bond with his Keyblade or Donald and Goofy. This is a game that has been foretold since forever to be the conclusion to every other title, so every other title will play its part in being necessary to get what this ending part is about.
KH III will be like Star Wars VI. Still a "good guys vs bad guys", but fat chance if you hoped to get why is Luke skilled with the Force or who exactly is Darth Vader from just that movie.

Now, that being said, anyone is free to play anything regardless. Gameplay will be still its own thing, so will minigames, exploration and stuff. And of course one can still get the main gist of "go to Disney worlds and beat up baddies", and let's be honest, there are many "fans" who actually still have that as their main knowledge of previous games.
We get "Aren't Roxas and Ventus practically the same person?" every other week on these forums, and if you ask me you must've played some hardcore blindfolded DDD with audio muted to not get that they're different.
AngryJoe can play KH III blind if he so chooses and that's his right. I'm familiar enough with his style to know deep story analysis isn't really his thing anyway.

That being said, I at least understand where the concern is coming from (concern. Not angry fan mob harassment). Bad rep and misinformation are KH's greatest enemies, and if a relatively well-known youtuber plays KH III without the other ones... and God forbids he will say stuff like "the plot is too complicated!" in his review... people will keep riding that train and the old memes won't die.
I can just avoid AJ's video, but hundreds of thoudands of people won't. And they might become that vocal percentage of people we see and resent during KH news that just bash on the franchise.

About his persona... he like many others mixes "fake" anger with real one (kinda like Cinemasins, which always say they're doing a parody of an overly nitpicky viewer but you can sorta get when they ACTUALLY hate a movie)

Like, I was speechless when after the Microsoft conference at E3 we got that special and they talked like the last time HJO voiced Sora was KH II, and kept talking about how many years have passed between KH II and KH III.
This is how you keep the misinformation going.

So, to summarize: while I still think KH III does require more knowledge of previous games than the average, it is never acceptable to lash out at one dude for not wanting to play a good decade of videogames just to play another videogame, but at the root there is a sentiment I at least empathyze with.

 

[gosoxtim]

See, the problem I see with that is that while a game should be approachable by itself and critics do have to review other things other than the plot... the plot still is a pretty important part.
I mean, let's not kid ourselves... I seriously doubt KH III will take its time to make Xehanort and all the other vessels understandable and approachable to newcomers, or TAV or RAX relatable to whoever didn't know them. Or even justifying Sora's bond with his Keyblade or Donald and Goofy. This is a game that has been foretold since forever to be the conclusion to every other title, so every other title will play its part in being necessary to get what this ending part is about.
KH III will be like Star Wars VI. Still a "good guys vs bad guys", but fat chance if you hoped to get why is Luke skilled with the Force or who exactly is Darth Vader from just that movie.

Now, that being said, anyone is free to play anything regardless. Gameplay will be still its own thing, so will minigames, exploration and stuff. And of course one can still get the main gist of "go to Disney worlds and beat up baddies", and let's be honest, there are many "fans" who actually still have that as their main knowledge of previous games.
We get "Aren't Roxas and Ventus practically the same person?" every other week on these forums, and if you ask me you must've played some hardcore blindfolded DDD with audio muted to not get that they're different.
AngryJoe can play KH III blind if he so chooses and that's his right. I'm familiar enough with his style to know deep story analysis isn't really his thing anyway.

That being said, I at least understand where the concern is coming from (concern. Not angry fan mob harassment). Bad rep and misinformation are KH's greatest enemies, and if a relatively well-known youtuber plays KH III without the other ones... and God forbids he will say stuff like "the plot is too complicated!" in his review... people will keep riding that train and the old memes won't die.
I can just avoid AJ's video, but hundreds of thoudands of people won't. And they might become that vocal percentage of people we see and resent during KH news that just bash on the franchise.

About his persona... he like many others mixes "fake" anger with real one (kinda like Cinemasins, which always say they're doing a parody of an overly nitpicky viewer but you can sorta get when they ACTUALLY hate a movie)

Like, I was speechless when after the Microsoft conference at E3 we got that special and they talked like the last time HJO voiced Sora was KH II, and kept talking about how many years have passed between KH II and KH III.
This is how you keep the misinformation going.

So, to summarize: while I still think KH III does require more knowledge of previous games than the average, it is never acceptable to lash out at one dude for not wanting to play a good decade of videogames just to play another videogame, but at the root there is a sentiment I at least empathyze with.

thank you for saying this DarkosOverlord this is very well said of you

 

[Launchpad]

Oh my god who cares

Why does it matter? What influence does this guy have? He's not considered a credible source of critique, especially amongst jrpg fans.

The dude could literally piss on the game disc on Twitch and the world would keep spinning. You'd still like the game, I'd still like the game, and he'd continue to live up to his tired 2006 tier 'rage' persona

 

[Megavoltage]

I think a lot of people will be confused with 3 even with the game collections and recap videos out now. A lot of fans only played 1 and 2, and that was a decade ago. I’m expecting tons of WHATS A XION WHOS XEHANORT WHATS GOING ONNNN and not just from Youtubers. So if the AngryJoe situation makes you angry, just wait. A tidal wave is coming.

Edit: when I'm thinking about it the Kingdom Hearts series hasn't gotten much attention from famous game reviewers or Let's Players, has it? Which is strange, considering how famous it is. None of the big Youtubers I follow ever mention it and I follow a lot. The only KH content is from people that purely concentrate on the series, like Everglow. Maybe KH3 will change this? AVGN doing a KH review or Super Best Friends playing through a game, maybe stuff like this is on the way.

 

[SuperstarSaga08]

I think a lot of people will be confused with 3 even with the game collections and recap videos out now. A lot of fans only played 1 and 2, and that was a decade ago. I’m expecting tons of WHATS A XION WHOS XEHANORT WHATS GOING ONNNN and not just from Youtubers. So if the AngryJoe situation makes you angry, just wait. A tidal wave is coming.

I'm not angry, not in the slightest. I'm just wondering if it's fair to judge a games story, if you haven't played the previous installments. It's just if Angry Joe gives KH3 a bad review from a story perspective, because let's face it, Any popular persons fan-base will most likely follow what they say. Could that possibly mean it could give KH3 the reputation of being not new player friendly, and this just doesn't apply to Joe, I mean any Popular game reviewer, such as IGN, GameInformer, and the countless YT channels that dedicate themselves to reviewing new games. If you're gonna review a game you should put someone in charge that knows the game well.

 

[kirabook]

Well, it's probably NOT friendly for newcomers. Square can do everything they can to open it up and boy are they really trying (free summary videos and offering countless bundles for all the games), but at the end of the day, if people don't want to catch up, I think they're going to have issues and it is what it is. Time spent trying to explain old games within KH3 can be spent actually moving the plot forward.

So I'm not upset about people like Joe. I just feel they're better off catching up on the old games and I'd really like to see them do so. It's fun to see people jump into the madness from the very start. Jumping right into KH3.... just seems like it'll suck for newcomers. I'm expecting a lot of people like Joe to show up and I've already seen quite a few. But whenever I see them, I always link them to every resource I can in hopes they'll learn more.

 

[SuperstarSaga08]

The one thing that does get me is that he called the Kingdom Hearts Community Elitist, even though that's a small majority. The way he phrased it made it seem he was assuming that all KH fans are Elitist, and I'm not gonna lie, some fans can be Elitist, but definitely not everyone is.

 

[Laurel]

This is making me think of Avengers Infinity War, the movie was built up over a decade with 18 movies behind it. Sure, you didn't have to watch all the movies to understand IW, but it would've made the movie more impactful if you saw a majority of them. But if someone were to watch the movie without seeing the other Marvel ones, I suppose you really wouldn't get much out of it, especially when it came to the emotional moments (also keeping track of the characters would be difficult since there's like 30+ of them). Despite that it is a movie that's a culmination of other movies, it was praised highly by audience and critics alike. (but then again, there's a difference between the popularity of a movie franchise and a video game franchise so maybe that's not the best example...)

As for playing KH3 without prior knowledge to the other games...well...good luck keeping track of everything that's going on. The story was never the franchise's strongest point (the cheesy dialogue does not help at all. You'd think after 16 years they would've tightened the dialogue.) Fortunately, the gameplay looks amazing so hopefully it gets praised for that at least.

 

[kirabook]

Pretty sure there were some reviews of Infinity War complaining that they didn't know what was going on as the movie didn't introduce characters or recap past events.

Like Infinity War, it's common sense to me that you go into that movie having a good sense of what's going to happen. It's a giant 'conclusion'. While I've seen most of the Marvel movies, there are still some I haven't see so I haven't seen Infinity War yet because I want to make sure I'm not blind going in.

The reason why I can't into western comics is because they don't seem to know the meaning of beginning and end and I can't figure out where to start for which series (and even some comic book fans don't seem to know)

This isn't God of War (which was amazing). This isn't Nier Automata (which is also amazing). This is basically Infinity War the video game but probably even worse.

 

[alexis.anagram]

I have no idea who this person is and can't seem to find the source of the topic in question because I apparently don't know how to Google and just keep getting other peoples' reactions, but as a general response:

The story of KH3 should be comprehensible and enjoyable to newcomers, and it shouldn't need a recap or summary mechanic or super heavy block of exposition. For critics, in particular, who are trained to look at a story and identify its basic framing, both absent and in consideration of its embellishing details, it should be possible to dissect the narrative of KH3 as it pertains to KH3 and come to an understanding of the game's themes and messaging without any prior experience with the franchise. That's what newcomers ought to be able to expect of KH3 as an experience: it won't teach you the finer points of the other seven games in the franchise and it would honestly be a waste of time to try. I actively hope KH3 doesn't give us anything on that front: no flashbacks (unless they provide new information critical to KH3), no summaries, no exposition, nothing. Because what KH3 needs to focus on is telling its own story; yes, it's a sequel, but sequels are not meant to be just extensive pay-off machines calling back to earlier, better stories: that would render them moot. Sequels are supposed to expand an existing narrative in new ways using all the tools of characterization and symbolism that made their predecessors successful, originating their own compelling arguments for why they exist. Kingdom Hearts II is an excellent example of this: despite following two previous games' worth of story material, it's probably the single title most responsible for popularizing the franchise, and a lot of that has to do with how the central elements of its narrative are understandable even without the immediate context of the previous games, so it brought in a ton of new fans who could relate to the characters and plot without the need for grounding in KH1 or CoM. Of course, that grounding adds to the experience in that it allows a sequel to reflects value back at its preceding narratives, and contributes to that unique interplay which is only fostered through the development of a single continuity, but that's neither here nor there.

There will be new people who play KH3 and have irrational expectations of what it can deliver to them, but we should caution ourselves against acting as apologists for a plot that hasn't, in fact, done its part in accommodating the uninitiated by actually, to put it bluntly, "being good." Newcomers won't understand exactly who Xion is or maybe what her specific connection to Kairi and Sora and Roxas is, but the fact is they should neither expect nor need that in order to understand and appreciate the impact of her (and other characters') returning to the story. KH3 shouldn't have to rely on the context provided by other games to make sense of its narrative from an emotional or artistic standpoint: the semantics and logic of some things may get lost in translation, but the significance of a dramatic moment should still be articulated with enough weight behind it to make itself felt regardless. The relationships between characters, the intrinsic motivations of characters, the general pace and purpose of the plot, the development of a theme or themes, should all still be compelling in its own right, and the real challenge for both newcomers and fans (and, again, especially critics) is to make determinations about the extent to which the game's narrative succeeds on its own merits when applying that set of criteria.

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

He just jumped on the bandwagon when KH3 proved itself to be way popular. If it weren't, he would've ignored it. That's how things work with some YouTube personalities.

But hey what do I know, in his eyes I'm "elitist."