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New Perspective: Kingdom Hearts has really been about past events



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SoraForeverKH

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After being introduced to KH 3D's 'Time Traveling' it all makes sense...During the time Xehanort was just a heart he went across the lanes of time, seeing and learning much. Which would explain why Xehanort seems to know so much about everything through the many times he hints or reveals to the main characters in the game.Though they were never aware and just going according to what time had in store for them, the heroes have been shown living their lives which Xehanort has already witnessed some of during his travels through time.Like take Sora and Riku, from the time when they first began their journeys to other Worlds after their home had been destroyed by the Darkness.
It sounds like Xehanort was almost aware of everything from that point on, all up to what happened in the end of Sora's story in Dream Drop Distance. It was revealed by the young Xehanort that he knew what would happen during Sora and Riku's mark of mastery exam, and it all went according to how Xehanort planned. But Young Xehanort also made it clear to Sora before he fell into his deep slumber that Xehanort had no knowledge of what would take place after that current time, not knowing for sure if Sora would belong to Xehanort or not in the end.
So it sounds like starting at the time where Sora, Riku and Kairi were all swept away from Destiny Islands, (the first journey,) and all the way up until the conclusion of Sora and Riku's exam in the Dream Worlds has been all about the past part in time, to Xehanort, anyway. And now also to the gamers playing the series.As far as what happened before Kingdom Hearts 1, back as far to Birth By Sleep, I can't say if Xehanort time traveled back that far or not. With Master Xehanort's body being present in that time, it should've been possible for (the Xehanort reduced to just a heart) to go back to in time.
But either way, the game Kingdom Hearts started out with the first game, featuring Sora, Riku and Kairi as the Keyblade wielders and seventh princess of Light. And when you consider that it would obviously make BBS a game of past events.So, this will mean that to begin the story in the actual current time, Kingdom Hearts III will be the first game to feature a story from the present. Which means Xehanort won't have a bunch of foresights on what is going to happen and won't be controlling or using Sora, Riku and co. with any advantages from what knowledge he obtained from time traveling.

KH III will be THE GAME OF THE PRESENT for all the characters of the series... Except for maybe the Foretellers, of course.
Not saying that Xehanort won't be able to still use the main heroes to exploit his big plans from what he knows about a lot of them, even things they're aren't aware of yet themselves, but he won't be years ahead of them like he's been in most of the series. And that makes things a little more fair for the heroes, I think.Still though, it's pretty crazy to think we've all been playing through the past life of Sora and his friends.
Just like when playing through BBS you know this is a game about people before Sora and Riku's story.The story of Sora and Riku ect. we thought was the present time of the game and have been continuing the story along while Sora and his friends are aging after their adventures is just about more PAST EVENTS. Again, considering you are looking at the game through Xehanort's eyes. Although, now even Sora and all of his friends are beginning to realize they've been experiencing TIME that has nearly already all been seen by an old Keyblade Master who chose the SEEKER'S LIFE. At least, I would assume the heroes have realized this by now after the countless times it has been explained to them by Xehanort in KH 3D.
If what we learned about Xehanort and Time Traveling in Dream Drop Distance is true, with everything being exactly like Xehanort said, this means every game in the series has been a bunch of prequels of the KH III, the game based of the actual time line.
I just thought that was a big surprise to find out that we've been playing past stories of the main characters' lives in all the games so far, and thought I'd bring I up after thinking about all of it. Again though, this only makes sense if you put yourself in Xehanort's shoes(even though I would never want to do that!) lol

Anyway, does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
 
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Ruran

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Ignoring that KH is partially made up as the writers go along, this kind of just reminds of how blown out of proportion Xehanort has become tbh. The concept of a time traveling villain who has witnessed and guided past events to eventually line up in a specific way to try and give himself the upper hand as much as possible before he inevitably has to leave things to fate because he's limited to seeing the past is interesting. In KH it's deliciously hamtastic in a comic book villain sort of way. It's one of those things that I think worked better on paper than in execution.
 

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So basically we were seeing the prelude to KH3 through Xehanort's eyes? Meh to be honest that's almost how DDD would make you think. Even though the series is made as it goes it's still possible this outcome is currently what they are going for given Nomura gives all the basic outlines.

It even fits into his own limitations if you think about it. Young Xehanort goes over his rules a couple times but the most important one he sites is that he can't alter what's meant to happen. Another important circumstance is that he can only time travel because of Ansem Seeker of Darkness, aka Xehanorts Heartless, existence which was rendered null when Xehanort returned whole in DDD.

This would explain why anything past DDD is "beyond his sight" because it's at DDD in which his powers of time end. Both Master Xehanort and the young Xehanort state this is the limits of their foresight.
It also explains why he can't alter history because the history so far was created by his meddling. Therefore going back in time doesn't alter it because it was this action that made the history.

By this I mean that perhaps it isn't so much that you can't alter history but that Xehanort meant that he specifically can't alter history. I'll quote an old thread on myself to explain what I mean which I think fits into your theory (plus to explain myself before anyone starts ranting on the laws of time):

I'm not saying what Xehanort laid out when he said destined events can't be altered was a lie. In fact, the very fact that Sora & Riku defeat YX, Xemnas and Ansem in DDD who are all from the past yet they still appear later shows that Xehanort's statement is indeed true.

If something is destined to happen it can't be changed. Young Xehanort was always destined to turn into Master Xehanort, Master Xehanort was always destined to become Terranort, then Apprentice Xehanort, then to be divided into Ansem & Xemnas before finally becoming whole once more in DDD.

These things are destined, Xehanort is meant to be a threat to the world, he's ensured it.

How exactly all these past versions can exist outside their time yet, simultaneously, return to were they came lacking all future knowledge to live their life isn't known. It's a paradox essentially.

However, while all these facts pretty much ensure that KH can't form alternate timelines or form plots were MX goes back to kill Sora, it doesn't mean that time travel doesn't affect history at all.

In Young Xehanort's explanation he mentions that while he forgets his future knowledge that it does still ingrain into his heart, they're "etched" into it.
Which is a callback to Chain of Memories when Namine said memories can't be destroyed or truly lost, just not recalled.

It's been pointed out by a few before but Nomura seems to have adopted a Novikov self-consistency principle with time travel in DDD.

This theory of time means that it's self contained and unalterable. Say that, for example, I go back in time to try and stop something, perhaps a relative dying by an accident.
Following this logic, and despite my efforts, all I end up doing is causing that very accident to happen. My actions become the very history I wanted to change.

Going by this, it would seem that this is exactly what Xehanort has done to himself. Xehanort's actions "etched" into his heart but in doing so the very history that he said he couldn't change comes about, he causes his own history and is then unable to alter it.
In short Xehanort didn't change history but caused it to actually happen the way it does because it was "destined" to happen.

If your lost this means that Xehanort time traveling did indeed affect his life in the sense that it caused the history he knows to happen.
He created his own destiny essentially, and since time can't be altered once it's set, he is "locked" into this history.

It's all one big self-fulfilling destiny.

----------------------------------------

Now does this mean history as a whole is changeable? Honestly after making this I'm not sure but I'm gonna lean towards no.
First and foremost doing something that would completely rewrite the mythos so far would alienate and enrage many of the fans this series has and who love it's intertwined mess of a story judging from what I see on here and other places.

Another reason I lean towards no is because we've also seen several other examples of time travel so far. The first was in kh2 with Timeless River.
If time truly was alterable then the very second Pete went back in time and changed something the present as Sora and we fans know it would've altered immediately following the logic of the Butterfly Effect.
Or it would've created a split timeline in which Pete and Maleficent were successful but that's not what happened. The Sora of the then present (KH2) went back and stopped the Pete of the same timeline as his antics messed with Disney Castle.

Another example was how Yen Sid sent Sora & Riku back in time. We don't know the details but we know that specific time and place was chosen because a version of Sora & Riku existed there and thus gave them a way to reach it.
This shows that even Yen Sid's method has similar rules to Xehanorts.

So having thought of all this since yesterday, I think that it is indeed possible time travel affects history but only in the sense that it creates said history and since that said history is created from time travel itself it then makes it unchangeable because it was time travel that first created it.

It's all basically caused by time travel and then canceled out by it since time travel was the source.
All in all though I agree with Ruran it's something that wasn't executed well but is certainly hamtastic as Xehanort has become with each game.
 

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I think as far as what happened in Dream Drop Distance with the exam, Realm of Sleep, Time Traveling details and outcomes, it was all executed much too quickly and made too brief. I am assuming it's due to Square Enix wanting to get it out really soon, and it being made to support the new Nintendo 3DS at the time probably didn't have very much memory.In my opinion I think it should've had more cut scenes and story, then maybe we wouldn't have been left in all this confusion which is nearly impossible to comprehend. Of course I am keeping in mind the KH games are made to be all about mysteries they hope fans will use their imaginations to try and figure out.
Nothing was really explained like it could've been though... And this I believe is because of the small amount of space the handhelds have. Truly those little things just can't give us the KH game of our expectations.
Considering what they were able to do with the 3DS game however was brilliant. I just wish we could've seen more scenes from the Dream Worlds, more scenes of the villains and ect.


It is true we first introduced to time travel in KH II with Timeless River... Heh, but even that hardly had enough shown details to really make any sense, I think.
Time traveling is a big thing, something that needs explained a little more. And to just suddenly bring it into 3D...it made all the details hard to grasp! For all the important things that game represented I think it should've contained more. I sure wanted it to show more! What do you guys think about it?


Before 3D I always just thought they brought time traveling into the second game for an excuse to have the game feature an old black and white Mickey Mouse cartoon based World for Sora and co. to explore, but now it is starting to show a strong connection to 3D, just like 'Gram' mentions above.


(Thanks for that post, Gram. That really helps clear up some of the mystery about Xehanort. I really hadn't given too much thought about what caused Xehanort's time traveling days to come to a halt in the end of 3D. That all really makes sense... With the splintered versions of himself who had the ability to move through time gone there'd be no way for him to time travel any further. Which then comes to the unforeseen time of KH III, the days which Master Xehanort will just be going with his plans much like the ones that backfired in his history of BBS. He won't really know for sure of anything that will occur at the time and place of the Keyblade War, he'll just be carrying out his plans from what he knows about everything and everyone. Which makes it that much more interesting to me.)


As far as villains go Xehanort is a pretty good one. Having knowledge of the future really gives him the upper hand. And that definitely makes him a bad guy to worry about.
Still...too bad KH III will be the end of his era. I wonder who better than Xehanort they'll use for the next main villain in the future series...


But yeah, it seems we have been playing games which are indeed preludes to KH III.
Maybe this was all something Nomura has had planned or just makes it up as he goes... I'm really not sure about that. But from what I've seen in his work I wouldn't underestimate his ideas.
 

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I think as far as what happened in Dream Drop Distance with the exam, Realm of Sleep, Time Traveling details and outcomes, it was all executed much too quickly and made too brief. I am assuming it's due to Square Enix wanting to get it out really soon, and it being made to support the new Nintendo 3DS at the time probably didn't have very much memory.
It wasn't just executed to quick but just all out poorly. It was an unnecessary plot device and despite Xehanort explaining it a couple times its one fans still have trouble with.
Which is incredibly ironic since it's a common complaint that things aren't explained in-game properly as they should be.

In my opinion I think it should've had more cut scenes and story, then maybe we wouldn't have been left in all this confusion which is nearly impossible to comprehend. Of course I am keeping in mind the KH games are made to be all about mysteries they hope fans will use their imaginations to try and figure out.
Nothing was really explained like it could've been though... And this I believe is because of the small amount of space the handhelds have. Truly those little things just can't give us the KH game of our expectations.
Considering what they were able to do with the 3DS game however was brilliant. I just wish we could've seen more scenes from the Dream Worlds, more scenes of the villains and ect.
The poor explanation of the series has nothing to do with the handhelds but rather it is in fact Nomura's own fault. He leaves things ambiguous for the most part so there's nothing to explain but when he does bother to give an explanation for something he doesn't give it till in some interview months later which are always in japan alone.

He doesn't put the explanation where it can be understood at all. The things he has bothered to explain at that wouldn't even need more story/scenes but just parts in the reports/journals of the games which makes it even worse of an oversight.

It is true we first introduced to time travel in KH II with Timeless River... Heh, but even that hardly had enough shown details to really make any sense, I think.
Time traveling is a big thing, something that needs explained a little more. And to just suddenly bring it into 3D...it made all the details hard to grasp! For all the important things that game represented I think it should've contained more. I sure wanted it to show more! What do you guys think about it?
Ironically enough Xehanort himself explains his time powers quite well and does so not once but twice. It's not hard to comprehend once you realize it follows Novikov principles.

I do feel it should've been left out as a whole though. Even if Xehanort explained his own powers that doesn't change that we've seen at least 3 different forms of time travel in which only one got any decent explanation.

(Thanks for that post, Gram. That really helps clear up some of the mystery about Xehanort. I really hadn't given too much thought about what caused Xehanort's time traveling days to come to a halt in the end of 3D. That all really makes sense... With the splintered versions of himself who had the ability to move through time gone there'd be no way for him to time travel any further. Which then comes to the unforeseen time of KH III, the days which Master Xehanort will just be going with his plans much like the ones that backfired in his history of BBS. He won't really know for sure of anything that will occur at the time and place of the Keyblade War, he'll just be carrying out his plans from what he knows about everything and everyone. Which makes it that much more interesting to me.)
Glad to help. ^ ^
It certainly makes it more interesting. I'm hoping Xehanort's lack of knowledge of KH3 is left cause his level of foresight in DDD was just ridiculous.

Maybe this was all something Nomura has had planned or just makes it up as he goes... I'm really not sure about that. But from what I've seen in his work I wouldn't underestimate his ideas.
There's no doubt that the series is made as he goes, this is even his own admission. He gets ideas for one game while making the current. KH1 wasn't sure to succeed so there was no lasting plan.
Though, to everyone's surprise, KH shot off like a rocket so KH2 was formulated. At this point though all he really had was the clip of Deep Dive at the end of KH1 which was so incomplete that he didnt even have a full design planned out for Riku or Roxas (thus the coats).

During KH2 he had ideas for BBS. Then Nintendo asked for Days. Coded came into play somewhere in there and CoM was made on a decision that fans/kids was asking for it.

It's been a bit of ideas but mostly expectancies. lol (makes one feel bad for Nomura really)
 

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During KH2 he had ideas for BBS. Then Nintendo asked for Days. Coded came into play somewhere in there and CoM was made on a decision that fans/kids was asking for it.
If I remember correctly Coded was originally requested by Disney.

If you narrow it down though it is somewhat telling that Nomura and SE themselves originally had planned for just BBS while they were working on KH 2.
Makes you wonder if the series would run smoother if they really had only BBS (and Blank Points thus either without Xion or playing out completely different).
 

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Personally I think the series would've been much smoother. Many of the things that make it complex and convoluted are the presented in the mess of unplanned games.
Had it just been the original plan of KH1>2>BBS I imagine the story would be much easier to follow. Though it makes me wonder how Roxas would've turned out. (probably would've been a typical villain like the rest)
 

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Wow! I really didn't know much about 'the unplanned games.' I've never thought of it like that before. Very good point.
Who knows where KH would be right now if there hadn't been so many 'interruptions' I'll call them. It sounds like Nomura was intending all along on bringing the Keyblade wielders before Sora and Riku from BBS into the main series after KH II.
I wonder how far the story would be if it weren't for those three mixed games, DAYS, CODED and COM, too.
We'd probably already have played through KH III by now.
But...I can't say I wouldn't miss those other games if they hadn't been made. I enjoy every KH game, well just about anyway. I personally don't care much for the card battling style in COM. And when playing a KH game I prefer it to be ran on a console and TV instead of tiny a hard to see handhelds. Haha.
 

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Nomura definitely had plans for BBS and TAV during KH2. Its why so much of KH2 will hint to them like Xigbar mentioning that Sora "isn't even half the hero the others were" as well as the concept of Xehanort being introduced. Though since KH1 wasn't a sure launch of a series there was only ideas for KH2 i.e the deep dive trailer.
It may be bad to say but honestly I wouldn't miss those other games if they hadn't come. There was some I enjoyed, some I loathed, but between the system spreading and lack of explanations and convolution these extra games brought I'd have much preferred they never came to be personally.

I mean just think of it, had these other games not came, you wouldn't have needed something like Dream Drop Distance to tie it all together before KH3 as some sorta patch job on the plot.
 

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Personally I think the series would've been much smoother. Many of the things that make it complex and convoluted are the presented in the mess of unplanned games.
Had it just been the original plan of KH1>2>BBS I imagine the story would be much easier to follow. Though it makes me wonder how Roxas would've turned out. (probably would've been a typical villain like the rest)
That's what I'm assuming as well.
As for Roxas, considering that we would have only his KH 2 appearance without Days and Coded, I would guess that Roxas' would not really be a villain, his core story would be intact, but I'd assume that his (and Naminé's) stories would count/remain as wrapped up as somebody (don't remember if it was you or Ruran) once already proposed.
Maybe he would occassionally appear as a sort of "spirit advisor" only Sora can see and hear, but that would be all about it.
Blank Points would probably be further altered to be only about TAV (not even Ansem the Wise is needed in person as the data he has left behind can work without him) with Naminé, Xion (who wouldn't even exist since Days never happened), Roxas and Axel as well completely absent from the secret ending.
The future would then only be about saving TAV (and they would probably be the only permanent additions to the main cast from already known characters) and defeating the returned Master Xehanort for good.

It sounds like Nomura was intending all along on bringing the Keyblade wielders before Sora and Riku from BBS into the main series after KH II.
He did.
As Gram said, he already had plans for BBS while they were still developing KH 2.
He also already knew roughly what TAV should look like, but their designs weren't finished yet (in an interview he mentioned for example that he always knew that Ventus should look like either Sora or Roxas, but he couldn't decide for a long time which one he should use) and that's why he decided to hide their faces behind their armor helmets during "The Gathering" in vanilla KH 2.
In "birth by sleep", the secret ending to KH 2 Final Mix, you finally get to see them discarding their helmets because by then Nomura had finished their designs.
 

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That's what I'm assuming as well.
As for Roxas, considering that we would have only his KH 2 appearance without Days and Coded, I would guess that Roxas' would not really be a villain, his core story would be intact, but I'd assume that his (and Naminé's) stories would count/remain as wrapped up as somebody (don't remember if it was you or Ruran) once already proposed.
Maybe he would occassionally appear as a sort of "spirit advisor" only Sora can see and hear, but that would be all about it.
Blank Points would probably be further altered to be only about TAV (not even Ansem the Wise is needed in person as the data he has left behind can work without him) with Naminé, Xion (who wouldn't even exist since Days never happened), Roxas and Axel as well completely absent from the secret ending.
The future would then only be about saving TAV (and they would probably be the only permanent additions to the main cast from already known characters) and defeating the returned Master Xehanort for good.
I'm not so sure it's stay that close to what it is now. Without CoM Namine would've never been and Sora wouldn't be asleep which pretty much alters how Roxas would be handled in kh2. Just imagine the possibilities. *o*
BBS though I see being unaffected.
 

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I'm not so sure it's stay that close to what it is now. Without CoM Namine would've never been and Sora wouldn't be asleep which pretty much alters how Roxas would be handled in kh2. Just imagine the possibilities. *o*
BBS though I see being unaffected.
Who's talking about CoM? o_0
CoM was before KH 2 and therefore already firmly part of the canon when Nomura decided to plan for BBS, I thought the topic was about what would be if Nintendo and Disney had not asked for the "extra" games of the Handheld-trifecta and thus BBS would be the only game between KH 2 and 3 just like CoM was the only one between 1 and 2.

For the sake of what-if though, if we take out CoM as well, I would guess that possibly Nomura would have went with the "original draft" I can vaguely remember where it was stated that "Roxas" (he had not even a name then!) was a sort of "Guardian" of Sora who worked/was employed by DiZ to fullfill this task.
 

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Who's talking about CoM? o_0
CoM was before KH 2 and therefore already firmly part of the canon when Nomura decided to plan for BBS, I thought the topic was about what would be if Nintendo and Disney had not asked for the "extra" games of the Handheld-trifecta and thus BBS would be the only game between KH 2 and 3 just like CoM was the only one between 1 and 2.

For the sake of what-if though, if we take out CoM as well, I would guess that possibly Nomura would have went with the "original draft" I can vaguely remember where it was stated that "Roxas" (he had not even a name then!) was a sort of "Guardian" of Sora who worked/was employed by DiZ to fullfill this task.
We was talking about unplanned games in general not just post KH2 which counts CoM as well. Nomura made CoM in response to fans/kids but originally planned to "skip the blank year".
 

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Wow... Haha, this new topic has been going on for a while, and it hardly had anything to do with the original post. Funny! But cool, too. That's what I come here to do– Open a conversation about KH.

I just finished watching Recoded from 2.5. Awesome! Just so much like a movie.
But...as much as I still enjoyed all of it, I wonder...how is Recoded anywhere useful for the characters and story leading into KH III.
It sounds like Mickey discovered some very important secrets about Sora and the other Keyblade wielders, but really, what was it for?
He said he planned to explain it all to the real Sora, but never truly has yet. Xehanort has explained more about it to Sora than Mickey. Lol As we've seen in 3D.
It does have an interesting plot and everything, but why was it so necessary for Naminé to do all that I wonder? The way I see it, I can't tell how any of it helps the real Sora, like how Data Sora learns how to handle the hurt.
Unless, the entire thing is all connected to the Book of Prophecies!
That new info really intrigues me. There is just so much to think about now. And I think I'm close to figuring out how the missing Keyblade wielders will be brought back in KH III.
 

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Wow... Haha, this new topic has been going on for a while, and it hardly had anything to do with the original post. Funny! But cool, too. That's what I come here to do– Open a conversation about KH.

I just finished watching Recoded from 2.5. Awesome! Just so much like a movie.
But...as much as I still enjoyed all of it, I wonder...how is Recoded anywhere useful for the characters and story leading into KH III.
It sounds like Mickey discovered some very important secrets about Sora and the other Keyblade wielders, but really, what was it for?
He said he planned to explain it all to the real Sora, but never truly has yet. Xehanort has explained more about it to Sora than Mickey. Lol As we've seen in 3D.
It does have an interesting plot and everything, but why was it so necessary for Naminé to do all that I wonder? The way I see it, I can't tell how any of it helps the real Sora, like how Data Sora learns how to handle the hurt.
Unless, the entire thing is all connected to the Book of Prophecies!
That new info really intrigues me. There is just so much to think about now. And I think I'm close to figuring out how the missing Keyblade wielders will be brought back in KH III.
Although at the moment not something important, coded introduced the digitalization of Jiminy's journal. With present information, it's possible that the data inside of Sora will be utilized by linking it with the Data World and to see whatever Ansem found out that was so important that he hid it inside Sora.
 

Gram

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^ It also sets up whatever Maleficent is planning with the data and the Book of Prophecy.
 

Ballad of Caius

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^ It also sets up whatever Maleficent is planning with the data and the Book of Prophecy.
Yes, though it's possible Xehanort is manipulating her to do that for him, like he did with the 7 Princesses back in the original KH. Perhaps he'll try to kidnap the Princesses as Maleficent tries to decipher the Tome?
 

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He may already have the book. It'd explain how he knows so much.
 

Ballad of Caius

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He may already have the book. It'd explain how he knows so much.
Or... What if the Book is inside Sora? What if that's the content of the data Ansem hid inside Sora's heart? Xehanort seeded Sora, so who's to say he didn't see what was inside of it?
 
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