Namine, Ventus, and Castle Oblivion

[Smile]

I swear Aqua is the only simple character in kingdom hearts.

1) So far. Let them give her a story first. (I call PoH)
2) you do realize that's basically because she has no story to call her own, yes?

 

[barricade21153]

Something will probably happen in the Realm of darkness

 

[Ikkin]

1) So far. Let them give her a story first. (I call PoH)
2) you do realize that's basically because she has no story to call her own, yes?

1) She's not a PoH.
2) She has a story. It's just mainly internal.


Getting back on topic, here's a thought about the Sora-Kairi-Ven->Roxas-Namine mess:

Nobodies, according to the Secret Ansem Reports, are reborn into a Twilight-aligned world from the bodies and souls of their others.

Ven's heart, apparently, went along with Sora's body to become Roxas.

But Sora's body didn't travel anywhere physically - it disappeared into light and reformed itself in Twilight Town as Roxas.

So, if Ven's heart was within Sora's body the whole time, might it not have been been reborn along with it? I suspect that the unmaking of a heart of pure light might produce a great quantity of light, which would be drawn to its original body.

And, if Kairi's heart imprinted on that light, the imprint could use it to make a body for itself, resulting in the creation of Namine in Castle Oblivion.

Ven's heart, having more light than it knows what to do with, wouldn't need Namine back to reform itself inside Roxas, in the same way as Kairi doesn't need Sora to give her back the light that she used to create his own new body.

This should explain why Namine is able to take a physical form, and why her body does not have the same properties as other Nobodies'.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

That's actually a quite interesting take on it...yeah, makes sense.

Only one thing:
In your theory you assume Ven's maimed, heavily injured heart consists still only of pure light.
If Vanitas, the embodiment of Ven's darkness, had been reabsorbed by Ventus after the last x-blade fight this shouldn't be the case anymore...so what then?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and another, since Ven's heart is badly crippled and inactive, it should not be able to do anything. Then if it were complete and active again, Roxas should have felt it was there.

 

[Ikkin]

That's actually a quite interesting take on it...yeah, makes sense.

Only one thing:
In your theory you assume Ven's maimed, heavily injured heart consists still only of pure light.
If Vanitas, the embodiment of Ven's darkness, had been reabsorbed by Ventus after the last x-blade fight this shouldn't be the case anymore...so what then?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and another, since Ven's heart is badly crippled and inactive, it should not be able to do anything. Then if it were complete and active again, Roxas should have felt it was there.

I'm assuming that Ven's heart consists of pure light 'cause his body's still around in one piece. The only time we've ever seen a body stick around without its heart in Kingdom Hearts is when the heart that left it had no darkness. I don't know what happened to Vanitas, but having him somehow wind up in Riku would explain a lot about the apparent connection between Xion and Riku's memories.

Also, I'm not really assuming that Ven's heart did anything beyond disappearing into light and then reappearing where it "belonged" in Sora's body. It would still be just as inactive afterward, so Roxas wouldn't have had any more reason to notice it.

 

[Pratiko]

I'm assuming that Ven's heart consists of pure light 'cause his body's still around in one piece. The only time we've ever seen a body stick around without its heart in Kingdom Hearts is when the heart that left it had no darkness. I don't know what happened to Vanitas, but having him somehow wind up in Riku would explain a lot about the apparent connection between Xion and Riku's memories.

Also, I'm not really assuming that Ven's heart did anything beyond disappearing into light and then reappearing where it "belonged" in Sora's body. It would still be just as inactive afterward, so Roxas wouldn't have had any more reason to notice it.

I think it was pretty much clear that after the las image of Ventus' Heart was shown, that Vanitas had merged with Ven once again into one Heart, since Vanitas' picture in the stained glass disappeared.

 

[Smile]

I don't know what happened to Vanitas, but having him somehow wind up in Riku would explain a lot about the apparent connection between Xion and Riku's memories.

I think that's one possibility but it'll have to draw upon an already existing connection between Vanitas and Riku. Or at least, I hope that'd be the case and not just "Riku was standing right next to Sora when Ven's Heart sank into him so Vanitas used that opportunity". Because that's just random.

I think it was pretty much clear that after the las image of Ventus' Heart was shown, that Vanitas had merged with Ven once again into one Heart, since Vanitas' picture in the stained glass disappeared.

I'm not so sure. The entire reason behind their internal battle was that Ven rejected the fusion, thus affecting the state the X-Blade was in. So even if he was absorbed into him I don't think the fusion was complete, certainly not after Ven basically went to town with his own Heart.

 

[gelandporn]

I think that's one possibility but it'll have to draw upon an already existing connection between Vanitas and Riku. Or at least, I hope that'd be the case and not just "Riku was standing right next to Sora when Ven's Heart sank into him so Vanitas used that opportunity". Because that's just random.

I actually have talked about the perfect time in which it could have occurred: http://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/150809-revelation-rikus-memories-4.html#post5141149

Riku has (or rather had) Vanitas' heart inside him. I know this doesn't sound all too appealing, but there are a few reasons why it adds up.
First, as I said in that topic, I think MX could have deduced that Ven's heart was connected to Sora. He wouldn't have attributed his recovery of the keyblade to some act of providence, I'm sure, and he could undoubtedly sense a change in Ven's heart as well. So, by connecting Vanitas to Riku's heart as Ven was to Sora's heart, he could ensure that the X-Blade could be created in the future should it fail the first time Ven and Vanitas tried to fuse.

But there's another reason why it fits, and it has to do with timing.
Check out this line of events:

1. Terra picks Riku to be his successor.
2. Terra goes to save Ven from Eraqus, transporting him on Destiny Island.
3. On Destiny Island, Ven meets Vanitas (who was there before him).

Question: What was Vanitas doing on Destiny Islands? Surely he couldn't have known that Terra would save Ven and transport him there. Vanitas had to be doing something. But what? Again, these events happen back-to-back. In other words, Vanitas went to Destiny Island directly after Terra chose Riku to wield the keyblade. Coincidence?

If Aqua could sense that Riku was chosen, so could Vanitas. And going back to the idea that MX and Vanitas knew about Sora's connection to Ven, I think Vanitas saw the perfect chance for his own fail safe back up plan.
I was always surprised at how Aqua noted that Riku's heart was filled with light. For some reason I thought he would be like Terra, naturally inclined to have a bit more darkness. Instead, he was light in the beginning, but Vanitas' darkness twisted him over the years, accounting for the change Kairi senses in him (hence why she tells Sora to never change). It also explains, obviously, Riku's dark suit. I know people chalk it up to being a coincidence, a rehashed design, but, really, there are only two occurrences of the suit in the series (Vanitas and Riku). Given Nomura's tendency for connections via physical appearances, there really ought to be some sort of reason for why the suits look so similar. And, after all, we already know that when Vanitas goes into another's heart, they aquire the suit- just look at Ven (in the scene where he has his armor on, but it melts into the dark suit). Riku's suit is slightly different for a potential variety of reasons, but I think that fits nicely.

 

[Smile]

Hm. Not unthinkable, though the technicalities still bug me a bit. Also, I do feel like Vanitas could've been there simply to follow Ven and reached there like a split second before. Or somehow knew where Ven was being sent because he knew where that "Lane" connected to. Iono. Again, not unthinkable, it just doesn't sit all that well with me at the moment.

1) She's not a PoH.

She was accepted to be used as X-Blade making material and managed to survive for an arguable amount of time in the Realm of Darkness. While they're both minor supports and nothing mind-blowing, it's not all that unthinkable and adds up nicely with Alice's birth if you say that Aqua getting stranded in the RoD was why another PoH had to be born. Alternatively, that being in the RoD made Aqua's Light dim so much that she could no longer be called to "Service".

 

[Vani]

I actually have talked about the perfect time in which it could have occurred: http://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/150809-revelation-rikus-memories-4.html#post5141149

dude. thats so awsome. that totally makes sense.

 

[gelandporn]

He knew Terra would open a Lane to DI, a place he had only been to once just hours earlier? I doubt that, especially considering Vanitas wasn't even at the Land of Departure at the time that he opened the Lane.
It also seems pretty improbable to me that Vanitas was following Ven and then somehow ended up there first, when Ven traveled there almost instantly. That would imply that, in less time than that instance, Vanitas would have had to have found out where the Lane was going, open his own Corridor, and travel there faster.

Had he been following Ven, then I think naturally he would have appeared after Ven (sensing his presence on DI, and then going there).

Logistically, it just makes a whole lot more sense that Vanitas was simply there prior to Ven. And then it's just a matter of asking why.

 

[Smile]

Well, they were going for the final battles. Maybe he was just checking up on Ven's other self.
AGAIN - not unthinkable. I just think Vanitas could've been trolling for a plethora of reasons and not necessarilly Riku. Time will tell though - or will it.

Hm. Wonder if this'll be covered in the upcoming novels.

 

[Ikkin]

She was accepted to be used as X-Blade making material and managed to survive for an arguable amount of time in the Realm of Darkness. While they're both minor supports and nothing mind-blowing, it's not all that unthinkable and adds up nicely with Alice's birth if you say that Aqua getting stranded in the RoD was why another PoH had to be born. Alternatively, that being in the RoD made Aqua's Light dim so much that she could no longer be called to "Service".

Vanitas considered her as a backup, but that's just because she was as pure as a normal human could possibly be. Xehanort surely would have been able to recognize that she had a heart of pure light when he dropped Ven off at the Land of Departure and would have mentioned that in his reports as a potential backup plan of his own. I doubt that he would have ignored her as much as he did if she was a PoH who was much more similar in power to Vanitas than Ven was.

 

[Smile]

Vanitas considered her as a backup, but that's just because she was as pure as a normal human could possibly be. Xehanort surely would have been able to recognize that she had a heart of pure light when he dropped Ven off at the Land of Departure and would have mentioned that in his reports as a potential backup plan of his own. I doubt that he would have ignored her as much as he did if she was a PoH who was much more similar in power to Vanitas than Ven was.

They ignored the PoHs as a whole even in BBS itself. I still don't get why they thought they were in danger from the get go, to be honest, so not mentioning it or making a big deal out of it doesn't hold as a reason why Aqua won't be one for me.

 

[Ikkin]

They ignored the PoHs as a whole even in BBS itself. I still don't get why they thought they were in danger from the get go, to be honest, so not mentioning it or making a big deal out of it doesn't hold as a reason why Aqua won't be one for me.

I think Master Xehanort may have had Vanitas target PoH worlds with Unversed to hide his real intentions. And he told Maleficent about the PoHs, and how they could be used to access Kingdom Hearts and rule all worlds.

Speaking of which, Xehanort ought to have told Maleficent that Aqua was a PoH if she was one, since he mainly just wanted her out of the way anyway. It's pretty clear that he didn't.

Also, PoHs and other BwHoPLs tend to show at least some inclination towards Light-based powers. Two of Ven's most powerful personal attacks are Light-based (Faith and Salvation); none of Aqua's are.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I think Master Xehanort may have had Vanitas target PoH worlds with Unversed to hide his real intentions. And he told Maleficent about the PoHs, and how they could be used to access Kingdom Hearts and rule all worlds.

Speaking of which, Xehanort ought to have told Maleficent that Aqua was a PoH if she was one, since he mainly just wanted her out of the way anyway. It's pretty clear that he didn't.

Also, PoHs and other BwHoPLs tend to show at least some inclination towards Light-based powers. Two of Ven's most powerful personal attacks are Light-based (Faith and Salvation); none of Aqua's are.

Yep, furthermore, if Aqua was a PoH Maleficent wouldn't have bothered with offering her to work together as she did in Aqua's scenario in BBS.

You missed out something there, Ikkin, Aqua was always fighting with light, she even got scolded by the fairy godmother in Castle of Dreams for it.
It is true that she had no full-fledged light commands like Ven (who also additionally has Wingblade, which uses swords of light and looks like Ven carries six glowing sword-wings on his back like a Seraph), but Aqua has at least one pure light attack: Her ultimate shotlock, Lightbloom, is clearly light-based.

However, I agree with the statement that Aqua is no PoH, but is as pure as a human can get.
Actually, I once thought that it might have to do something with Aqua Training under Eraqus since early childhood. She apparently yielded to Eraqus' teachings in a deeper way than Terra, and also took much more of his "extremist" views inside her.
So I what if Eraqus' training made her heart suppressing its darkness in such a strong way that the darkness in her heart isn't even barely noticeable anymore, so she would be good enough as x-blade material.
If I remember correctly MX' original plan was to turn his own pupil Ventus into a dark warrior and then pit him against Aqua to get the x-blade, but he saw that Ventus was to benign and his heart to full of light to become a true warrior of darkness. So if he had succeeded and Ventus would have been a dark warrior it would be the opposite of Aqua, a heart so filled with darkness that has suppressed its light so heavily that it is no more noticeable...
...I believe Nomura made a mistake here with that "pure" heart statement...

Lol, there is it again: BwHoPL => Goldspanners nightmare of an abbreviation.

Edit: Furthermore, I've read Grass' theory and I find it quite reasonable...call it just a feeling but I doubt BBS was the last time we saw anything from Vanitas.

 

[Pratiko]

Crap, I just got an idea.

I need a Days expert to clarify me if Roxas entered Castle Oblivion BEFORE or AFTER starting to "feel" real emotions. I remember two important scenes of those, one being when Xion dies, the other when he's alone in Agrabah or something, am I correct?

Could Roxas entering CO have some sort of effect of him due to being too close to Ventus, making him collapse?

 

[mookystank]

Could Roxas entering CO have some sort of effect of him due to being too close to Ventus, making him collapse?

That's exactly what it is, there's an interview about it somewhere.

 

[Sign]

Crap, I just got an idea.

I need a Days expert to clarify me if Roxas entered Castle Oblivion BEFORE or AFTER starting to "feel" real emotions. I remember two important scenes of those, one being when Xion dies, the other when he's alone in Agrabah or something, am I correct?

Could Roxas entering CO have some sort of effect of him due to being too close to Ventus, making him collapse?

Yes, that's what happened. It was because he got too close to Sora and Ven, his true selves. It happened on day 297.

 

[Pratiko]

Oh shi.
Thanks for the clarification, guys.