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My stance on time travel and its involvement in the next title(s)



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Oathkeyper97

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So I've seen a lot of people say that they don't like the time travel aspect introduced in DDD (technically introduced in KH 2, but Xehanort's method specifically), and others are fine with it. I, for one, have grown to like the concept. It's a unique sort of time travel that I feel fits into the KH universe pretty well, and isn't too stereotypical. So what about its effect on the rest of the series? (Sorry about the incoming paragraphs of text :p)

Throughout the series, we have seen Xehanort manipulate many things all for the sake of his ultimate goal. He has influenced people and their actions; he's even made use of the "laws of the KH universe" (for lack of a better phrase), such as the Nobodies and the Princesses of Heart. And then, in DDD, he reveals that he thought waaaaay ahead and utilized a specific method of time travel in his quest for the X-blade and Kingdom Hearts. Xehanort is one of my favorite villains in anything ever because of his affinity for strategy and how cold-hearted he is. We never really see into his mind to know his thoughts. All we know about him and his plans are the things he has revealed. How he learned to time travel in this specific way is kinda mysterious, too, and I like that.

And now that this complicated time travel stuff has been added to the series, how is he going to utilize it next?!?!
To be honest... I hope he doesn't.

Just like every other part of his plan, I hope the time travel stuff will stay as just another clever trick of his. Just another way he has screwed over so many people. He's always looked at the grand scheme of things and said "How can I use this person?" and "How can I use this knowledge for my benefit?" When he did experiments under Ansem the Wise (and then using his name) he found out all sorts of things about how Heartless and Nobodies work. Heck, he even discovered that Nobodies would naturally grow their own hearts under the right conditions. And what did he do? He just kinda said "Hmm, better make sure I lie to them so that they stay with me in my plans." That sort of villainy is just so cool!

Xehanort pretty much has his entire plan set in motion, and time travel is one of the cogs in the machine. If there IS some other big twist in his plan, I'm sure Nomura will make it have to do with something other than time travel.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Feels kinda nice to type it all out. What do you guys think?
 

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I to be blunt dont like the time travel. To me time travel is a writers last resort when they've either wrote themselves into a corner or are out of decent ideas. I only truly accept time travel if the story starts out revolving around the concept.

That being said I do at the very least give Nomura some credit. He concocted such a form of time travel that it's impossible for Xehanort to alter history. There wont be no crazy time travel timey whimey wibbly wobbly like in Doctor Who or other such series.
In hindsight it also makes sense for Xehanort to choose this form. With the way his plans are set up right now he wouldn't want history to change. He's back, he extended his life as he wanted, he now has a means of gathering the pieces needed for the Xblade, everything falls in line for him to leave history in tact.

However that is where my understanding ends. The fact remains that it still feels like some unnecessary and complicated method for him to bring back past versions of Xehanort. When it already feels like this guy is never truly freakin gone. (I know he never was technically but dont start with me)
The unnecessary feeling also stems from the fact that, apparently from what I've read here, there was already plentiful ways to restore these people without resorting to time travel.
Recompletion, Replicas, Pieces of Xehanorts heart, all ways for a version of him to return and basically still do the same plot but in a simpler fashion.
In turn time travel makes these other concepts feel pointless or even dumb to many because "why have recompletion if your just gonna summon past versions from the past anyway?" and vice versa "why have time travel if all the nobodies I bothered beating are just gonna return to human form anyway?".
In turn it feels rather silly to think Xehanort never tried using a replica to extent his life even once. I know the replicas we have seen rebelled in strong ways but if he had put a piece of his heart into a freshly made and empty replica body wouldn't it have instantly become like him? If he can control fully independent people who grew up as normal individuals with personalities then why couldn't he control some freshly made replica?

Theres to many concepts to restore people or continue the plot. It feels cluttered. Room to drag this crap out forever if you will. It also understandably cheapens things for many fans as well. Like why bother having nobodies at all if the villains are just gonna come back human with the screen time and relevance they lacked as a nobody? Just dancing in circles.

Something else that annoys me. Although this has to do with fans more than Nomura. I constantly see the comments that "Nomura doesn't know time travel!" or that he "doesn't understand it". I find these types of comments asinine and slightly arrogant.
If anyone just quickly goggled time travel theories they'd find that Nomuras, or rather Xehanorts', closely follows the Novikov principle. Which basically states that nothing is changeable even with the power to traverse time itself. For example if I tried to go back and say alter a death, in the end, my actions would cause said death.
But most importantly. ANYTHING ABOVE ALL ELSE. I find it off of anyone to claim that a story teller "doesn't understand time". To be perfectly blunt no human walking now or ever has fully come to understand time or its function in it's entirety. Thats why there are so many theories ON time travel. Parallel worlds/string theory, Novikov, wormholes, etc.
Hell it is only recently within historical standards that we even understand that space and speed can warp time. It is only recently in the historical scope that we know that the faster you go the slower time is for the object traveling that speed.

===========

I apologize, I ranted. Anyway I just find the concept unnecessary in it's entirety. However I do think young Xehanort is by far the most interesting one yet given how much Ansem, Xemnas and Apprentice have been devalued in recent titles. I was saddened to find he's just there to usher in the old Xehanorts return.
Young Xehanort would've made a far better and more interesting final form to this creepy old master.
 

Nazo

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I thought time travel added another piece of convolution to an already difficult to follow plot, but Nomura was smart and didn't allow the time travel to cause utter chaos by limiting its effect on established events. Personally, I think it was executed well and don't mind it, I just think trying to understand it initially is confusing, and this series is already confusing enough for the non-hardcore players as it is. Unless you're a lore-obsessed dork like I am, it's just another piece of "Wha...?" in a giant pile of confusion that takes serious dedication to piece together.
 

Oathkeyper97

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Hurray for rants! XD

Anyway, you make some really good points! And I can see why you're annoyed by the inclusion of time travel in the overall plot. I can also see why it may be unnecessary to the plot. But yet, for some reason that I just can't place, it doesn't annoy me. Maybe it's just because of how Nomura made the concept fit into the KH universe? I dunno. Besides, I like it when plots are complicated! Not in a messy way, but in the "everything is explained in some way" way. Still, as I mentioned before, if the rest of the Xehanort Saga ended up hinging on the active use of the time travel mechanic, that would be really dumb and cliché. As it is now, though, I've grown to like it... for some reason.

And as Nazo said it, I'm one of those lore-obsessed dorks! XD

Thanks for the long reply, by the way! I'm relatively new to the forum and I've really enjoyed the opportunity to interact with this community!
 

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Wow someone that likes rants...you....you must be a saint. o_o
The only sad part about explanation is that the series rarely gives it. Everything is usually in some book or interview somewhere. Time travel is pretty much the only thing that has ever been explained properly in the series. Which makes it sadder that I dont like it.
I do give Nomura A for effort this time though. If only he did such thorough explanation all the time.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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As a reviewer and lover of fiction, there are 2 plot elements that I feel are the most difficult to handle. If handled wrong they can taint a series to an extent. These 2 elements are 1.) The Afterlife & (2.) Time Travel.

If you show too much of the Afterlife then you take away the impact of death in a series.(See Dragon Ball Z's Other World as an Example) If you're not careful with how you use Time Travel, then you can over complicate your series. (See Kingdom Hearts & Final Fantasy XIII-2).

Now first let me say that I give props to Nomura for making Xehanort's method of time travel a unique one. Introducing the law of only being able to travel during time periods in your lifetime, being unable to affect the past to change future events, and having to move forward with the flow of time, are good ways of keeping Time Travel from being OP. The problem is that Nomura didn't just introduce 1 form of time travel in the series, but 2. Merlin has his own form of Time Travel as seen in KH2 and it doesn't seem to have any of the same restrictions we see with Xehanort's form of Time Travel, which brings up the Question: Why Didn't Xehanort attempt to use Merlin's Method?! (Also i'd get rid of Merlin's Method)

And the next problem with Time Travel is honestly, it wasn't needed, or at least it wasn't needed this early in the series. (Maybe later to go back in time to the Keyblade War or something) Xehanort's Time Travel is used to gather different versions of himself to form the True Organization XIII, but the thing is that methods already existed to do that very thing without the need for time travel. One method in particular is "Birth By Sleep" which Ansem the Wise explained to Aqua is a method to restore people once lost, such as Roxas, Xion, Namine, and so on. Now if Ansem was studying such a method, then none of us would have found it so hard to believe that Xehanort, one of the smartest if not THE smartest character in the series, would also have discovered the concept of "Birth By Sleep".

Using the "Birth By Sleep" method Xehanort could have restored Xemnas, Ansem Seeker of Darkness, and Terranort and given them separate physical existences of their own so they could exist alongside him as members of the Seekers of Darkness. Young Xehanort, instead of being a past version of Xehanort, could have been created as a weird bi-product of when Xehanort lost his original body to fuse with Terra in BBS, thus Young Xehanort could have been an Anti-Namine of sorts. As such while Ansem Seeker of Darkness & Xemnas were the forefront players in KH1 & KH2, Young Xehanort would have been working behind the shadows going unnoticed. You could have even had him be the one who kept certain worlds trapped in sleep after KH1 to set up the plot of KH3D (As it was never explained why only a few worlds randomly remained in sleep while the others taken by the heartless returned to the realm of light).

And it's not like Nomura would have had to reveal the details of the concept of "Birth By Sleep" in KH3D, since the idea that this was a way to restore people like Roxas, Namine, & Xion had already been introduced in Ansem and Aqua's conversation. So for example the conversation could have gone like so during the scene with Riku & Co. in the throne room:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Riku: 13 Xehanorts?! But how?! Ansem & Xemnas were destroyed!

Young Xehanort: Why do you sound so surprised? Aren't you and your friends also attempting to restore those existences tied to Sora? Roxas and the others I mean. It's a method of restoration called "Birth By Sleep". You didn't think Ansem was the only one interested in such research, did you? That's why Master Xehanort allowed his heartless and nobody to develop their own sense of self, separate from his own. So that when the time came he could restore them and use them to fill two more seats of the True Organization XIII.

Riku: You know how to restore the existences of beings like that?! Which means you know how to restore Roxas and the others! Tell me!

Young Xehanort: Sorry, but that's our little secret.

--------------------------------------------------------------

And BOOM there's a nice simple explanation that ties the concept of "Birth By Sleep" and the quest to restore Roxas, Namine, & Xion together with KH3D and you don't need time travel what so ever.
 
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^ This guy, I like him.

Young Xehanort, instead of being a past version of Xehanort, could have been created as a weird bi-product of when Xehanort lost his original body to fuse with Terra in BBS, thus Young Xehanort could have been an Anti-Namine of sorts.

Hell if you wanted to get even more simple you could've had Xehanorts original old body, turned nobody, running around (perhaps while constantly wearing a coat or his discarded armor?) setting up events while young Xehanort could've been the main Xehanorts revived self. Finally having the youth he wanted.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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^ This guy, I like him.



Hell if you wanted to get even more simple you could've had Xehanorts original old body, turned nobody, running around (perhaps while constantly wearing a coat or his discarded armor?) setting up events while young Xehanort could've been the main Xehanorts revived self. Finally having the youth he wanted.

OOOooooHHHH!! I Like That! Have the old Xehanort body be the discarded one while the revived main Master Xehanort retains his youth as a side effect of once being merged with Terra or have Young Xehanort somehow transfer his youth to main Master Xehanort!
 

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OOOooooHHHH!! I Like That! Have the old Xehanort body be the discarded one while the revived main Master Xehanort retains his youth as a side effect of once being merged with Terra or have Young Xehanort somehow transfer his youth to main Master Xehanort!

With the "birth by sleep" method you brought up you wouldn't really have to do either. If the main Xehanort was brought back that way you could just have him young just cause.
If it can revive everyone else in KH3 by just poofing them into physical existence when they have none then you dont really need complicated means for villains either.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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With the "birth by sleep" method you brought up you wouldn't really have to do either. If the main Xehanort was brought back that way you could just have him young just cause.
If it can revive everyone else in KH3 by just poofing them into physical existence when they have none then you dont really need complicated means for villains either.

True, but we really don't know what "Birth By Sleep" is aside from a method to restore people who have lost their physical existence and are trapped via a connection to another being (Roxas and Xion to Sora, Namine to Kairi and kind of Sora). Which is why I believe said method could have been used to restore Xemnas and Ansem. Yet we don't know if such a method can restore the youth of a person. There's nothing suggesting that so far in the series.

The best method I could see for Xehanort retaining his youth after reforming is basically doing a reverse Namine situation. Look at Namine closely: Her appearance is a hybrid of Kairi & Ventus. Namine is female thanks to Kairi, yet she was born with the Blonde Hair & Blue eyes of Ventus (Due to Sora being involved in her creation). So in effect she incorporates aspects of both.

Now Let's Say Xehanort did the inverse of that process. Where as Namine became a hybrid through the Nobody creation process, Xehanort becomes a sort of hybrid through the whole being reformation process. Meaning Xehanort is restored, and while he separates himself from Terra (Using Terra as another Seeker of Darkness), he incorporates Terra's youth into his reformed body thus resulting in his restoration being that of his younger body. This allows him to have his youth, without needing to inhabit Terra's body which also prevents Terra from fighting back against his control directly.

Either way the fact that we can come up with so many different ideas of how things could have played out to get the same results, clearly shows that Time Travel was unneeded in KH3D.
 

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i personally detest the "time-travel" idea. It is gimmicky and unnecessary. They are using it as a way for Xehanort to become the main villain by having his heartless time travel from the beginning and cause the Young Xehanort to be who he is, which in essence that there is an eternal loop.

Second, to fill in seats for the new Organization XIII (XIII Seekers of Darkness). Keep in mind that time travel was also introduced in the very same game that introduced the "Dream Realm". Both concepts felt shoe-horned. This all began with KH3D. although had a fairly decent story, unlike the other KH games, KH3D lacked a proper theme. In kh1 it was the basic "light and darkness". In chain of memories it was "memories", in kh2 it was "nobodies", in 358 days it was "daily life", and in birth by sleep it was "origin".

KH3D is the mockery of the entire KH series. not only does it make it difficult to follwo with these new concepts, it makes you question "why even bother introducing these aspects". the more i play kh3d, the more i feel it was designed for fandom.
 

Mr. Megaverse

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i personally detest the "time-travel" idea. It is gimmicky and unnecessary. They are using it as a way for Xehanort to become the main villain by having his heartless time travel from the beginning and cause the Young Xehanort to be who he is, which in essence that there is an eternal loop.

Second, to fill in seats for the new Organization XIII (XIII Seekers of Darkness). Keep in mind that time travel was also introduced in the very same game that introduced the "Dream Realm". Both concepts felt shoe-horned. This all began with KH3D. although had a fairly decent story, unlike the other KH games, KH3D lacked a proper theme. In kh1 it was the basic "light and darkness". In chain of memories it was "memories", in kh2 it was "nobodies", in 358 days it was "daily life", and in birth by sleep it was "origin".

KH3D is the mockery of the entire KH series. not only does it make it difficult to follwo with these new concepts, it makes you question "why even bother introducing these aspects". the more i play kh3d, the more i feel it was designed for fandom.

Well I think the Sleeping Worlds were fine for a setting, they just needed more a purpose to be sleeping. Which is why I mentioned in my post that Young Xehanort (Not as a time traveler but as a Nobody type of being) could have have some worlds to fall into sleep. Picture this:

KH3D starts out with a 3 Hour Mickey prologue about Mickey finding the Dark Realm's Keyblade and stuff. At the end of that prologue we see the worlds once taken by the heartless flying out and being restored. But watching this all from afar is Young Xehanort who uses his control over darkness to prevent some of the worlds from returning to the realm of light, instead placing them in a state of sleep. Why would Young Xehanort do this? Simple: He's setting a trap. He knows that Yen Sid (Who Master Xehanort & Eraqus hung out with back in the day) can tell what's going on with the worlds via the stars. So he knows Yen Sid will become aware that some of the worlds did not return to the Realm of Light. In turn Yen Sid will enlist Sora and the others to go and save the sleeping worlds. Sleep is tied to darkness, so once Sora and Riku (his targets for this trap) are in the Sleeping Worlds then BOOM he can go to town trying to make them Xehanort vessels. This would lead directly into the present time and the main story of Riku & Sora's journey in the Sleeping Worlds.

Also the theme of the game should have been dreams, but more so the concept of dreams giving you access to your heart on a deeper level. What lies in the deepest part of Sora's heart? The connection with those who are in torment. Which would lead to the overall purpose of KH3D being "Connections" not just between characters, but between all the games in the series up to that point. It would be connecting Xehanort's plan across the different games to reveal his overall goal, but also to connect all the characters and plots of the game together before heading into the final chapter of the Xehanort Saga: Kingdom Hearts III. But this concept of "Connections" would also continue in the idea that this game should not have been about time travel, but also about the connection between heart, body, and soul. Meaning that instead of the time travel crap, instead we would get an explanation on exactly how the heart, body, & soul once separated as heartless and nobody can come together to reform the original person. (The details of this process are still a mystery) they should have been explained in KH3D.

Also just a note KH3D, I would not have let it stood for "Dream, Drop, Distance". but instead it would be under my vision "Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream, Data, Darkness". Dream being Riku & Sora's journey in the Sleeping Worlds. Data being Ansem's hidden data in Sora and somehow incorporating Namine's message from Re:Coded into the game (Thus eliminating the need for Re:Coded as a game). And Darkness being the 3 Hour Mickey Realm of Darkness prologue I mentioned.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Can only second what Incognito said.

The ideas brought forth by Mr. Megaverse are splendid in that they work with the established fantasy mythos of the KH universe itself without further complicating it.
Great stuff. ^___^

If only Nomura didn't have this knack to feel the need to be always surprising. Some of the concepts introduced into the series are just there to provide another twist/surprise instead of actually enrich the narrative.
You do not need to constantly introduce new things to keep a story interesting. Sometimes it is even more successful to either use or expand on already existing concepts.
 

Nazo

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If only Nomura didn't have this knack to feel the need to be always surprising. Some of the concepts introduced into the series are just there to provide another twist/surprise instead of actually enrich the narrative.
You do not need to constantly introduce new things to keep a story interesting. Sometimes it is even more successful to either use or expand on already existing concepts.

You gotta admit though, when Nomura gets those surprises to work properly, they are satisfying as hell. A lot of them a surprises for the sake of surprise, but when he gets it right, it's magical.
 

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True, but we really don't know what "Birth By Sleep" is aside from a method to restore people who have lost their physical existence and are trapped via a connection to another being (Roxas and Xion to Sora, Namine to Kairi and kind of Sora). Which is why I believe said method could have been used to restore Xemnas and Ansem. Yet we don't know if such a method can restore the youth of a person. There's nothing suggesting that so far in the series.

Either way the fact that we can come up with so many different ideas of how things could have played out to get the same results, clearly shows that Time Travel was unneeded in KH3D.
That's the point I'm getting at though. It's because we know next to nothing about the method that just randomly giving youth wouldn't matter. Your already randomly giving beings with no physical presence of their own presence. Ya see?

Also Just thought of another method that is by far the simplest of all. Just say young Xehanort is Xehanort truly reborn. Using some BS excuse like Xemnas used the last of the power he absorbed from his damaged/fake kingdom hearts to recomplete himself.
Kinda like reviving himself as he was fading but instead bringing back the main Xehanort, albeit younger, instead.

lol That's definitely true. Us alone have already listed what? Like 10 alternate methods not relying on the three the series already has.

i personally detest the "time-travel" idea. It is gimmicky and unnecessary. They are using it as a way for Xehanort to become the main villain by having his heartless time travel from the beginning and cause the Young Xehanort to be who he is, which in essence that there is an eternal loop.

Second, to fill in seats for the new Organization XIII (XIII Seekers of Darkness). Keep in mind that time travel was also introduced in the very same game that introduced the "Dream Realm". Both concepts felt shoe-horned. This all began with KH3D. although had a fairly decent story, unlike the other KH games, KH3D lacked a proper theme. In kh1 it was the basic "light and darkness". In chain of memories it was "memories", in kh2 it was "nobodies", in 358 days it was "daily life", and in birth by sleep it was "origin".

KH3D is the mockery of the entire KH series. not only does it make it difficult to follwo with these new concepts, it makes you question "why even bother introducing these aspects". the more i play kh3d, the more i feel it was designed for fandom.
Basically put I think it is a eternal loop though I'm not sure thats what Nomura was going for. The way it is now it basically stands that Xehanort can't alter history because his meddling is whats' caused it in the first place.

I agree with all this post though. I'd have rather Xehanort produced 13, or at least most of the 13 (some could've been other characters), replicas. All bound and controlled by his own heart. Could even be lazy and not give them faces, just 13 guys in coats.

Well I think the Sleeping Worlds were fine for a setting, they just needed more a purpose to be sleeping. Which is why I mentioned in my post that Young Xehanort (Not as a time traveler but as a Nobody type of being) could have have some worlds to fall into sleep. Picture this:

KH3D starts out with a 3 Hour Mickey prologue about Mickey finding the Dark Realm's Keyblade and stuff. At the end of that prologue we see the worlds once taken by the heartless flying out and being restored. But watching this all from afar is Young Xehanort who uses his control over darkness to prevent some of the worlds from returning to the realm of light, instead placing them in a state of sleep. Why would Young Xehanort do this? Simple: He's setting a trap. He knows that Yen Sid (Who Master Xehanort & Eraqus hung out with back in the day) can tell what's going on with the worlds via the stars. So he knows Yen Sid will become aware that some of the worlds did not return to the Realm of Light. In turn Yen Sid will enlist Sora and the others to go and save the sleeping worlds. Sleep is tied to darkness, so once Sora and Riku (his targets for this trap) are in the Sleeping Worlds then BOOM he can go to town trying to make them Xehanort vessels. This would lead directly into the present time and the main story of Riku & Sora's journey in the Sleeping Worlds.

Also the theme of the game should have been dreams, but more so the concept of dreams giving you access to your heart on a deeper level. What lies in the deepest part of Sora's heart? The connection with those who are in torment. Which would lead to the overall purpose of KH3D being "Connections" not just between characters, but between all the games in the series up to that point. It would be connecting Xehanort's plan across the different games to reveal his overall goal, but also to connect all the characters and plots of the game together before heading into the final chapter of the Xehanort Saga: Kingdom Hearts III. But this concept of "Connections" would also continue in the idea that this game should not have been about time travel, but also about the connection between heart, body, and soul. Meaning that instead of the time travel crap, instead we would get an explanation on exactly how the heart, body, & soul once separated as heartless and nobody can come together to reform the original person. (The details of this process are still a mystery) they should have been explained in KH3D.

Also just a note KH3D, I would not have let it stood for "Dream, Drop, Distance". but instead it would be under my vision "Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream, Data, Darkness". Dream being Riku & Sora's journey in the Sleeping Worlds. Data being Ansem's hidden data in Sora and somehow incorporating Namine's message from Re:Coded into the game (Thus eliminating the need for Re:Coded as a game). And Darkness being the 3 Hour Mickey Realm of Darkness prologue I mentioned.
I do content myself that dream worlds themselves do fit. DDD could've done it better but dreams have had symbolic meaning since KH1 itself with the story/tutorial/foreshadowing at the start. Roxas dreams in KH2 also.

Can only second what Incognito said.

The ideas brought forth by Mr. Megaverse are splendid in that they work with the established fantasy mythos of the KH universe itself without further complicating it.
Great stuff. ^___^

If only Nomura didn't have this knack to feel the need to be always surprising. Some of the concepts introduced into the series are just there to provide another twist/surprise instead of actually enrich the narrative.
You do not need to constantly introduce new things to keep a story interesting. Sometimes it is even more successful to either use or expand on already existing concepts.
Woot seconded by the lore master!
I wonder if he ever goes onto a forum to find his "surprises" guessed months in advance. lmao

You gotta admit though, when Nomura gets those surprises to work properly, they are satisfying as hell. A lot of them a surprises for the sake of surprise, but when he gets it right, it's magical.
Has he ever pulled one off though? lmao
 

Alpha Baymax

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I know this is diving into obscure property here, but in Meet The Robinsons, this guy has a time travelling vehicle....

latest


Now, I don't want a Meet the Robinsons world in Kingdom Hearts 3. The movie was outright terrible, however, having this character be involved in the time travel mechanics with his vehicle would be an interesting manner to make time travel work (to an extent) in Kingdom Hearts 3.
 
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