My personal take on the TAV Trio

[DarkosOverlord]

Howdy!
I thought about doing my own personal take on a completely unoriginal and already seen topic, just for giving my piece of mind about the infamous Terra-Aqua-Ventus Trio.
Often we see discussion about them, considering a lot of people thought they were poorly mixed together, while others liked them a lot: now, while you CAN like them, tastes follow no rules, I just wanted to demonstrate how I think they are really not a good team and how their own individual badassness does not translate into teamwork.
Obviously it's my PERSONAL take, and I understand disagreement.

Many sees not only a great friendship, but even love between the BbS protagonists; I am no one to judge (I personally feel Terra and Aqua are shipped just cause they are the standard male and the standard female of the game), but let's see at least the friendship part.

- Let's start with the most important thing: the background.
Ventus, ok, we at least saw when and how he met Terra and Aqua; but what about the two of them? Were they inhabitants of the same world or different ones? (meaning, they grew up together or only met via Eraqus?)
Were they even scouted in the same period? What if Terra was with Eraqus since birth, and Aqua arrived a few years after?
They might seem pointless questions, but they are not: they're actually useful to determine how far the trust bond goes between them. What Terra says and does might change a lot depending if he was talking about his childhood frined, his "Sora" or "Kairi", or a rival student with a 6-7 years relationship.
This could even change the notorious "Terra getting salty over Aqua spying on him": was he just being an edgy moron, or maybe there wasn't anything that proved Aqua was never gonna betray him? That she wouldn't forget her friends after becoming a Master? Who knows, we surely can't tell.
And the game doing very little to how they interact with each other on the daily really doesn't help.

- Moving along, the Mark of Mastery, a life-changing event: one of them passes, the other doesn't. In both cases a truly important event: what are the best friends doing? Each one in a separate location, minding his own businesses!
Obviously I don't expect Terra to go find the others, and he did ask to be left alone: but they seriously left him just cause he said that?
Aqua, did she really wait all along for Eraqus without even seeing the others? That's commendable, don't get me wrong, but hardly...friendly.
And the Aqua-Ventus friendship doesn't have the shadow of an excuse, obviously. They really didn't care.
And if they did some of that off-screen, is just like Terra and Aqua's past: doesn't count.
Terra then leaves while completely ignoring Ventus.

- Terra meets Aqua at the Castle of Dreams: they're alone, without anyone else, in a foreign world; aaaaand... they talk about job and their dream which Luxu knows how many times they retell already. Wow.
Ok, Ventus escaped, a big deal yes, after that... they look like some boring office co-workers, sorry.
Aqua will then meet Ven at Enchatned Domionion, and without even wondering why he escaped, she just tells him to go home. He, in a similar blind as a mule manner, refuses on the premise of vague words about Terra.

- The big meeting at Radiant Garden: a nice way for them to let their hair down for a moment... aaaand they're screaming and attacking each other. Great.
Terra has wronged and he knows, he kinda sorta endangered on of the seven purest hearts, kind of a big deal, and yet he still feels like the victim there.
Aqua is no better: Terra accuses her of spying and she doesn't say anything because she CAN'T say anything: she did spy on him, and when reunited with him she didn't hesitate to make him uncomfortable with her allusions. Again, following orders is commendable, but not always a sign of friendship.
Terra commands Ventus to go back (yeah, because the boy who disobeyed Eraqus and already refused once will DEFINITELY listen to you now), ultimately leaves like the saltiest of babies.
Ventus then accuses Aqua of letting the title of Master going to her head: he's not wrong, but that doesn't make him less stubborn and immature.

See, that's the thing. It might be a little insulting to them, but I feel that's just the truth.
Ventus didn't even try to share his worries with the others, running away and breaking rules. And it did bring troubles.
Terra became deaf to reason in order tgo protect his stupid pride. And it did bring troubles.
Aqua... she might not realize that herself, but she thought she was better. She (and Terra) sees Ventus as a child, doesn't entrust him with anything. She then doesn't trust Terra, automatically assuming his way was wrong.
The supposedly wisest of the trio failed to put herself in their shoes, to truly understand her comrades: the consequence to that? She actually firmly believes she's already right from the start.

I think they are friends and care about each other, make no mistake: but they are awful friends.
Each one of them thinks he/she should shoulder also the otehr two's share of problem, cause he/she's the only one capable of solving them.
And they inevitably fail, oth on the emotional side and the fighting side.

- Let's see the final battle.
Terra literally blocks Ventus and rushes ahead alone. He gets shown the door-well, the ground.
Then all three of them gets distracted by looking at the other and getting hit themselves in the process.
Ventus sees Terra on top and immediately rushes in to help him, getting freezed in the process (that will prove to be the source of a lot of complications, such as forcing Aqua to be at his side all the time).
Terra sees this and he too rushes in, failing to notice Vanitas and the Keyblade incoming.
Aqua gets provoked by Braig, Te4rra gets provoked by Xehanort, Ventus by Vanitas, congratulations everyone.
Aqua ALSO gets distracted by looking at Ven, failing to notice Vanitas and getting struck down.

Remember Riku and Sora versus Xemnas? THAT was teamwork. They fought alongside the other one, not for the other one, and sacrificed only when necessary, giving an opening for the other one.
Terra, Aqua and Ventus are awesome and strong. They also could really complement each other, given how different they are. But, having this mindset constantly on "___ IS IN DANGER, MUST PROTECT" ultimately does no good to them, severly weaking them.
So no, Aqua, you do NOT make a great team. You COULD.

 

[Muke]

- Moving along, the Mark of Mastery, a life-changing event: one of them passes, the other doesn't. In both cases a truly important event: what are the best friends doing? Each one in a separate location, minding his own businesses!

What do you expect? Everybody needs some kind of privacy. Do you want them to go to the bathroom together, too?

Obviously I don't expect Terra to go find the others, and he did ask to be left alone: but they seriously left him just cause he said that?

Yes? They respect that he wants privacy. I think that's good.

And the Aqua-Ventus friendship doesn't have the shadow of an excuse, obviously. They really didn't care.
And if they did some of that off-screen, is just like Terra and Aqua's past: doesn't count.

Wait, I didn't get it. Why doesn't it count?

- Terra meets Aqua at the Castle of Dreams: they're alone, without anyone else, in a foreign world; aaaaand... they talk about job and their dream

The first moment Aqua sees Terra she tells him that Ven ran away. I think that's good.
Also, it seems to me like Aqua was just trying to change the subject, because she clearly noticed that Terra blamed himself.

Aqua will then meet Ven at Enchatned Domionion, and without even wondering why he escaped, she just tells him to go home. He, in a similar blind as a mule manner, refuses on the premise of vague words about Terra.

I mean… she doesn't want him to get hurt and all. IDK how that is bad?

Terra commands Ventus to go back (yeah, because the boy who disobeyed Eraqus and already refused once will DEFINITELY listen to you now)

So, basically you want him to be more like: "Oh, whatever you didn't listen to one person, so just do whatever you want."
That is not friendly.

Ventus then accuses Aqua of letting the title of Master going to her head: he's not wrong, but that doesn't make him less stubborn and immature.

Ventus only protects and defends Terra when it comes to arguments. Terra would never do this, never do that. I agree with you on that one.

The supposedly wisest of the trio failed to put herself in their shoes, to truly understand her comrades: the consequence to that? She actually firmly believes she's already right from the start.

I'm gonna talk about this later.

I think they are friends and care about each other, make no mistake: but they are awful friends.

I don't think so. They all want the best for one another, but they do it in a really wrong way.

Terra literally blocks Ventus and rushes ahead alone.

I see it as: "Wait, I'm gonna take care of this. Wait here, don't get hurt!" How is that bad?

Ventus sees Terra on top and immediately rushes in to help him, getting freezed in the process

He sacrificed himself for a friend. Where's the problem?

Terra sees this and he too rushes in, failing to notice Vanitas and the Keyblade incoming.

IDK, is Terra supposed to take care of everything? He saw his friend getting hurt and rushed towards him to help him. Him not seeing Aqua is pretty valid imo.

Aqua gets provoked by Braig, Terra gets provoked by Xehanort, Ventus by Vanitas, congratulations everyone.

?????

Aqua ALSO gets distracted by looking at Ven, failing to notice Vanitas and getting struck down.

IIRC she looks at him because she wanted to help?

Remember Riku and Sora versus Xemnas? THAT was teamwork. They fought alongside the other one, not for the other one, and sacrificed only when necessary, giving an opening for the other one.

That was 2 versus 1, though. This was 3 vs 3. They can't all fight simultaneously alongside each other.

But, having this mindset constantly on "___ IS IN DANGER, MUST PROTECT" ultimately does no good to them, severly weaking them.

Agreed.

 

[kirabook]

I'd like to start off by saying I don't think teamwork = friendship. Two different things, and they speak as if they've only fought together once or twice. It's not their forte. In that regard, Sora and Riku compliment each other much better when it comes to fighting.

Many sees not only a great friendship, but even love between the BbS protagonists; I am no one to judge (I personally feel Terra and Aqua are shipped just cause they are the standard male and the standard female of the game), but let's see at least the friendship part.

I don't ship any of them together and I honestly believe most people who love the TAV trio don't see them that way. I rarely ever see TerraxAqua art (I don't even know their ship name really). Rarely see any AquaxVen either. In fact, I mostly see TerraxVen out of the three possible ships. Luckily, Aqua avoided the typical crazy fangirls from hating on her character for 'getting in the way' BECAUSE no one really ships TAV romantically.

This is only personal opinion of course.

- Let's start with the most important thing: the background.
Ventus, ok, we at least saw when and how he met Terra and Aqua; but what about the two of them? Were they inhabitants of the same world or different ones? (meaning, they grew up together or only met via Eraqus?)
Were they even scouted in the same period? What if Terra was with Eraqus since birth, and Aqua arrived a few years after?
They might seem pointless questions, but they are not: they're actually useful to determine how far the trust bond goes between them. What Terra says and does might change a lot depending if he was talking about his childhood frined, his "Sora" or "Kairi", or a rival student with a 6-7 years relationship.
This could even change the notorious "Terra getting salty over Aqua spying on him": was he just being an edgy moron, or maybe there wasn't anything that proved Aqua was never gonna betray him? That she wouldn't forget her friends after becoming a Master? Who knows, we surely can't tell.
And the game doing very little to how they interact with each other on the daily really doesn't help.

When we first played the first KH game, we knew nothing about Sora, Kairi, or Riku. We assumed they've been friends for a while. We were told Kairi was not from the island. And... that's about it. They spend majority of the game apart and in the end, were still separated from each other.

We definitely didn't know jack about Axel's past and Roxas and Xion didn't even have a past. That trio had the luxory of having nothing better to do but be with each other every day after work and at home.

Why are required to know so much about TAV when no other trio has had such requirements or didn't get these details until later games? Why did all their info need to be in their very first game? That's not to say you shouldn't want more. Of course I want to know more about Terra and Aqua, and I definitely want to learn more about Ven, but I haven't put those expectations on a game that barely fit on the PSP and it's their first intro into the series.

The solution would have been to treat them more like RAX, but unfortunately that's not what the plot called for or they just didn't have the space.

Another solution could have been to have a longer intro delving into their relationship and characters more like KH1 and KH2, but we know how most of the fandom perceives those tutorial parts of the games and Nomura is very aware of it. He says he evenwants to avoid that in KH3 and jump right into the action.

- Moving along, the Mark of Mastery, a life-changing event: one of them passes, the other doesn't. In both cases a truly important event: what are the best friends doing? Each one in a separate location, minding his own businesses!
Obviously I don't expect Terra to go find the others, and he did ask to be left alone: but they seriously left him just cause he said that?
Aqua, did she really wait all along for Eraqus without even seeing the others? That's commendable, don't get me wrong, but hardly...friendly.
And the Aqua-Ventus friendship doesn't have the shadow of an excuse, obviously. They really didn't care.
And if they did some of that off-screen, is just like Terra and Aqua's past: doesn't count.
Terra then leaves while completely ignoring Ventus.

The entire time we see Aqua waiting and hearing Eraqus speak, she looks pensive and unhappy. Even when Terra comes back and Eraqus dismisses him, Aqua tries to quickly follow after Terra (even opening her mouth for a second like she was about to ask him to wait) and is stopped by Eraqus so he could talk more.

Terra on the other hand, sets out to try to prove himself. He just got a boost of confidence after hearing he could pass goes head first into his adventure. He has no idea what Ven is going to say, but brushes it off. I personally think the thought Ven was going to apologize for him not passing again and Terra is telling him "It's ok." cause hey, I'm gonna come back and get promoted! (or not)

As for Aqua and Ven, Aqua totally treats Ven like a disobedient child on a very long leash. It would have made more sense for Aqua to put more effort in finding and catching him, but she was also trying to follow her other 2 orders: defeat the unversed and watch over Terra. Her hands were tied, but I always wish they could have done more. They should have put more emphasis on catching Ven. In fact, it'd be hilarious to see him trying to hide from her in comical ways.

But I digress. Their ending is fantastic and any future events between them is bound to get even better (She's the only one who can find him, and she is probably the one who can put his heart back where it belongs, among other things)

- Terra meets Aqua at the Castle of Dreams: they're alone, without anyone else, in a foreign world; aaaaand... they talk about job and their dream which Luxu knows how many times they retell already. Wow.
Ok, Ventus escaped, a big deal yes, after that... they look like some boring office co-workers, sorry.
Aqua will then meet Ven at Enchatned Domionion, and without even wondering why he escaped, she just tells him to go home. He, in a similar blind as a mule manner, refuses on the premise of vague words about Terra.

I think you missed the point of this scene. Maybe it was just me, but this scene seems to have been written to be intentionally awkward. Aqua is trying to talk with this dude and he won't even turn to look at her or speak to her properly. They don't speak like true pals until he brings up Cinderella and they smile at each other, and Aqua walks away happily thinking things are still good between them.

In my personal opinion, subtext says Terra is still a wee bit sour about not passing and Aqua thinks he's mad at her, but that notion is erased when he asks her if she still has the same dream and that he'll keep on believing. That may not be what this scene is saying at all, but that's what it seems to be to me.

- The big meeting at Radiant Garden: a nice way for them to let their hair down for a moment... aaaand they're screaming and attacking each other. Great.
Terra has wronged and he knows, he kinda sorta endangered on of the seven purest hearts, kind of a big deal, and yet he still feels like the victim there.
Aqua is no better: Terra accuses her of spying and she doesn't say anything because she CAN'T say anything: she did spy on him, and when reunited with him she didn't hesitate to make him uncomfortable with her allusions. Again, following orders is commendable, but not always a sign of friendship.
Terra commands Ventus to go back (yeah, because the boy who disobeyed Eraqus and already refused once will DEFINITELY listen to you now), ultimately leaves like the saltiest of babies.
Ventus then accuses Aqua of letting the title of Master going to her head: he's not wrong, but that doesn't make him less stubborn and immature.

See, that's the thing. It might be a little insulting to them, but I feel that's just the truth.
Ventus didn't even try to share his worries with the others, running away and breaking rules. And it did bring troubles.
Terra became deaf to reason in order tgo protect his stupid pride. And it did bring troubles.
Aqua... she might not realize that herself, but she thought she was better. She (and Terra) sees Ventus as a child, doesn't entrust him with anything. She then doesn't trust Terra, automatically assuming his way was wrong.
The supposedly wisest of the trio failed to put herself in their shoes, to truly understand her comrades: the consequence to that? She actually firmly believes she's already right from the start.

I think they are friends and care about each other, make no mistake: but they are awful friends.
Each one of them thinks he/she should shoulder also the otehr two's share of problem, cause he/she's the only one capable of solving them.
And they inevitably fail, oth on the emotional side and the fighting side.

A bit exaggerated but ok. At this point, they definitely aren't being kind to each other. I've written in depth on how this scene could have been improved, so I'll just summarize it:
- They should have had Aqua actually witnessing Terra doing something bad
- They should have had Aqua physically planning to take Ven home before he runs away himself and Aqua gives up momentarily to seek out Terra
- Actually Terra and Ven were fine

You see, I don't see this part as a point against them. If supplemented with better material (like I mentioned above), a scene like this is character building. We see the worst of them and the problem with their friendship finally reaches the surface. The rest of the game should be used for them to contemplate what they did wrong, and a proper ending would have them make up in a happily ever after scenario.

They didn't get a happy ending, nor did they properly get to make up, which is what I'm most excited to see in future content. And in my opinion, Aqua only half contemplated what she did wrong (In Ven's case), we need to see her realize light and darkness must be balanced and darkness can be used for good (aka Riku)

An event like this can only make them stronger. Not only do they have this, but also the ending that tore them apart. Their friendship has been properly tested and now it's time to rebuild it. BbS never resolved anything for them, hence the tragedy.

- Let's see the final battle.
Terra literally blocks Ventus and rushes ahead alone. He gets shown the door-well, the ground.
Then all three of them gets distracted by looking at the other and getting hit themselves in the process.
Ventus sees Terra on top and immediately rushes in to help him, getting freezed in the process (that will prove to be the source of a lot of complications, such as forcing Aqua to be at his side all the time).
Terra sees this and he too rushes in, failing to notice Vanitas and the Keyblade incoming.
Aqua gets provoked by Braig, Te4rra gets provoked by Xehanort, Ventus by Vanitas, congratulations everyone.
Aqua ALSO gets distracted by looking at Ven, failing to notice Vanitas and getting struck down.

Remember Riku and Sora versus Xemnas? THAT was teamwork. They fought alongside the other one, not for the other one, and sacrificed only when necessary, giving an opening for the other one.
Terra, Aqua and Ventus are awesome and strong. They also could really complement each other, given how different they are. But, having this mindset constantly on "___ IS IN DANGER, MUST PROTECT" ultimately does no good to them, severly weaking them.
So no, Aqua, you do NOT make a great team. You COULD.

I see Terra's actions during the fighting sequence as a mixture of continously being overprotective of Ven (Ven just asked them both to kill him so that he wouldn't have to fight, Terra just accidently helped murder Eraqus over protecting Ven) and (even though he just told Aqua he wouldn't) going astray again and letting his emotions rule him.

I don't see how being so focused on the well being of one another and accidently getting hurt in the process is a strike against their friendship.

Again, I don't see how Ven rushing to the aid of his friend, even knowing he probably couldn't take them on, is a strike against their friendship

Now Aqua on the other hand, they could have done it better. They could have had Braig actively trying to shoot at them or come at them to make Aqua fight back rather than her willingly accepting his dumb duel like challenge

And so I finish, I don't think friendship = teamwork. While you might think, "Well, they should handle this logically!", Riku and Sora didn't just get the news that their father figure was murdered by the guy they're fighting. They didn't just witness their home getting destroyed because of them. They didn't just have one of the three ask for assissted suicide. They weren't just told that they're essentially the key to destroying the world as they know it and have their memories returned of physical and emotional abuse.

 

[VoidGear.]

Ventus, ok, we at least saw when and how he met Terra and Aqua; but what about the two of them? Were they inhabitants of the same world or different ones? (meaning, they grew up together or only met via Eraqus?)
Were they even scouted in the same period? What if Terra was with Eraqus since birth, and Aqua arrived a few years after?
They might seem pointless questions, but they are not: they're actually useful to determine how far the trust bond goes between them. What Terra says and does might change a lot depending if he was talking about his childhood frined, his "Sora" or "Kairi", or a rival student with a 6-7 years relationship.

This bothered me as well. Sure, it leaves room for speculation, but why not just tell us a bit about when Terra and Aqua started training together? Then again, we don't know anything about Ventus's past which also annoys me.

- Moving along, the Mark of Mastery, a life-changing event: one of them passes, the other doesn't. In both cases a truly important event: what are the best friends doing? Each one in a separate location, minding his own businesses!
Obviously I don't expect Terra to go find the others, and he did ask to be left alone: but they seriously left him just cause he said that?
Aqua, did she really wait all along for Eraqus without even seeing the others? That's commendable, don't get me wrong, but hardly...friendly.
And the Aqua-Ventus friendship doesn't have the shadow of an excuse, obviously. They really didn't care.
And if they did some of that off-screen, is just like Terra and Aqua's past: doesn't count.
Terra then leaves while completely ignoring Ventus.

Aqua is heavily neglected throughout the whole game, there's no denying that, but I wasn't too mad about them seperating after the exam. They had been waiting for that day to come and probably never prepared for Terra or Aqua not to pass, so forcing themselves to stay together and talk...I don't know if that would've helped.
Yes, Ventus ist mostly bothered about Terra. Like I said before, Aqua is heavily neglected in all parts, and this is a prove of that. But I'm sure if she had been the one to fail and Terra had passed, Ventus would've reacted the same way. He just wants his friends to be happy.

- Terra meets Aqua at the Castle of Dreams: they're alone, without anyone else, in a foreign world; aaaaand... they talk about job and their dream which Luxu knows how many times they retell already. Wow.
Ok, Ventus escaped, a big deal yes, after that... they look like some boring office co-workers, sorry.

I. Absolutely. Detest. This. Cutscene.
I probably said it before in other threads, but basically everything about this scene drives me nuts. Aqua and Terra treating each others like strangers. None of them even considering traveling together even though their goal is supposed to be the same. The topic of Ventus being forgotten after three seconds even though Eraqus was devastated at him leaving and you would think that Terra and Aqua would at least almost feel the same.
This whole scene is absolutely awful.

Terra has wronged and he knows, he kinda sorta endangered on of the seven purest hearts, kind of a big deal, and yet he still feels like the victim there.

To be fair, he sort of is. He's the victim of his at least semi-crazy father figure making him feel worth less because there is darkness in his heart, even though Eraqus should know that darkness is in every heart and he can't just "turn it off" by saying "bad darkness. BAAAAD!" and then there's his "friend" Aqua who takes the same line without even trying to think for herself, blindly following orders and - even though she tells Maleficent that she doesn't - suspects him of doing bad stuff even though she has absolutely no proof that it was Terra who hurt anyone.
Besides, he didn't do shit. He was tricked into thinking that he did, yes, but he actually didn't harm Aurora (if you're talking about her).

Aqua is no better: Terra accuses her of spying and she doesn't say anything because she CAN'T say anything: she did spy on him, and when reunited with him she didn't hesitate to make him uncomfortable with her allusions. Again, following orders is commendable, but not always a sign of friendship.

I agree on this. Another reason why I hate the CoD-scene: If she had at least tried to get Terra to travel alongside her (be it by some weird "we're stronger together, we could find Ventus together" monologue if needed), then she'd have the right to be hurt or whatever, but she acted like a dick by spying on her friend like a special agent instead of even just trying another way.

Terra commands Ventus to go back (yeah, because the boy who disobeyed Eraqus and already refused once will DEFINITELY listen to you now), ultimately leaves like the saltiest of babies.
Ventus then accuses Aqua of letting the title of Master going to her head: he's not wrong, but that doesn't make him less stubborn and immature.

All those "Ven go home" tries are extremely stupid, yes. It's like the game wants us to believe that they tried when they actually didn't at ALL.
I have to say I agree with Ventus, but his way of telling her that and then running after Terra like a dog again was just awful and nothing a friend would do.

Ventus didn't even try to share his worries with the others, running away and breaking rules. And it did bring troubles.

True, although I'd mostly blame Terra for this. He was the person Ventus looked up to most and then he just leaves him there even though the boy is obviously afraid for his safety. That was stupid, especially considering that Ventus only has four years of memories and TAE are the only people he knows and trusts. Losing them would be the end of the world for him.

Terra became deaf to reason in order tgo protect his stupid pride. And it did bring troubles.

If Terra is deaf to reason, I want to know what Eraqus is. You can't just tell someone "hey, there's this part of you inside you that you can't get rid of...but it sucks so go fuck yourself and I won't tell you how you could maybe handle it, I'll just tell you to get rid of it EVEN THOUGH YOU FUCKING CAN'T" and then expect anything good to happen from it. Eraqus gave Xehanort exactly what he needed: A desperate student, insecure with himself, feeling like there was no place for someone like him and that he'd never be good enough because of being who he is.

Aqua... she might not realize that herself, but she thought she was better. She (and Terra) sees Ventus as a child, doesn't entrust him with anything. She then doesn't trust Terra, automatically assuming his way was wrong.

Well, she at least trusted her powers more than her friends. Objectively, that might even make sense, because she's the only one who became a master, but it doesn't work on the moral part because spying on your friends just because you might have better control over yourself is still not a nice act. She could've at least properly tried to talk to Terra before.

The supposedly wisest of the trio failed to put herself in their shoes, to truly understand her comrades: the consequence to that? She actually firmly believes she's already right from the start.

Actually, she doesn't even believe in herself much at that point, but instead blindly follows what Master Eraqus says without trying to think of other ways.

- Let's see the final battle.
Terra literally blocks Ventus and rushes ahead alone. He gets shown the door-well, the ground.
Then all three of them gets distracted by looking at the other and getting hit themselves in the process.
Ventus sees Terra on top and immediately rushes in to help him, getting freezed in the process (that will prove to be the source of a lot of complications, such as forcing Aqua to be at his side all the time).
Terra sees this and he too rushes in, failing to notice Vanitas and the Keyblade incoming.
Aqua gets provoked by Braig, Te4rra gets provoked by Xehanort, Ventus by Vanitas, congratulations everyone.
Aqua ALSO gets distracted by looking at Ven, failing to notice Vanitas and getting struck down.

Remember Riku and Sora versus Xemnas? THAT was teamwork. They fought alongside the other one, not for the other one, and sacrificed only when necessary, giving an opening for the other one.
Terra, Aqua and Ventus are awesome and strong. They also could really complement each other, given how different they are. But, having this mindset constantly on "___ IS IN DANGER, MUST PROTECT" ultimately does no good to them, severly weaking them.
So no, Aqua, you do NOT make a great team. You COULD.

I don't know about all this.
Sure Sora and Riku were a better team. They had at least fought alongside each other a little against real enemies. All TAV ever did together was train for themselves and not against other enemies.
Sure, rushing in just like that was stupid, but honestly, either way, I don't really think they would've stood a chance even if they tried harder than that.

 

[catcake]

I don't have a problem with flawed friendships, Sora and Riku's friendship went through a lot of hardship too before becoming what it is now. It's been years since I played BBS, but I remember feeling that everything was just somehow... shallow. Maybe the empty hollow worlds and my dislike for the battle system had part in it too, but I just didn't really feel anything for most of the game. It didn't really feel like a whole, complete story, and more like I was thrown in the middle of something. Like it was the middle part of a story without the beginning and end, somehow.

I liked Aqua and Vanitas, they felt like something fresh and new in a way, but I found Ven and Terra annoying. To be quite honest even now I don't feel all that much for them, but that can definitely change if we see more of them. I didn't like Riku in KH1 either, and now he's one of my favorites so yeah. I'm looking forward to Ven getting a bigger role especially, learning about his past would be cool. I hope his personality before the whole Vanitas thing was different, that would be interesting and add more to him than just the basic happy naive kid thing he has going for him in BBS.

But I also think that I might be a bit biased, I just love the main cast from KH1-CoM-KH2 so much that I probably didn't play the game with the most open mind. I remember not being too happy about not playing as Sora back then. It's not like any other trios in KH have amazing dynamics either, so it's really a general problem with the writing, too, not just with TAV.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

What do you expect? Everybody needs some kind of privacy. Do you want them to go to the bathroom together, too?

Yes? They respect that he wants privacy. I think that's good.

In real life, yes. In a game, they missed hella chances to do actual relationship development.
But I admit I did not explain that clearly enough. I do have this tendecy of only thinking some parts of my reasoning...

Wait, I didn't get it. Why doesn't it count?

Kinda like the point above, mainly it's because you don't... know... if that happened or not. You can say it happened, I can say Ventus actually just watched Aqua angrily and ran away, and we can't really prove each other wrong.

The first moment Aqua sees Terra she tells him that Ven ran away. I think that's good.
Also, it seems to me like Aqua was just trying to change the subject, because she clearly noticed that Terra blamed himself.

Nothing against this reading.

I mean… she doesn't want him to get hurt and all. IDK how that is bad?

Is not bad in itself, but you usually wanna know why your friend did a grave rule infringement and wandered around the universe. Again: missed chance at friendship.

So, basically you want him to be more like: "Oh, whatever you didn't listen to one person, so just do whatever you want."
That is not friendly.

I definitely don't want him to not even trying to understand how Ven felt and just ordering him around like a 8 year old.
That is also not friendly.

I don't think so. They all want the best for one another, but they do it in a really wrong way.

Exactly. So they kinda suck at being friends, even if they don't have evil intentions and they don't actively try to be awful at doing so.

I see it as: "Wait, I'm gonna take care of this. Wait here, don't get hurt!" How is that bad?




He sacrificed himself for a friend. Where's the problem?

Because of the consequences. Ultimately, almost all of these actions helped no one and damaged both parties.

IDK, is Terra supposed to take care of everything? He saw his friend getting hurt and rushed towards him to help him. Him not seeing Aqua is pretty valid imo.

Same here, it ultimately benefits no one if Terra gets attacked before even doing anything. Be sure you have room to act, then go save people.
Even in real life, saving others before being safe yourself is always something they warn you not to do, for yours and theirs safety.

?????

Just a snarky remark at how they played every role Xehanort had for them. I know, they were kinda forced into this (Ventus could avoid not getting frozen)... it was mostly ironical.

IIRC she looks at him because she wanted to help?

It's either she, like Terra, should've been more aware of her surrounding first, or again this is all part of Ventus bad decision of rushing in earlier. Pick your poison I guess.

That was 2 versus 1, though. This was 3 vs 3. They can't all fight simultaneously alongside each other.

Agreed, but I can see improvement.

Agreed.

I take it it's only a matter of how much we think this affected them in the end.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

I'd like to start off by saying I don't think teamwork = friendship. Two different things, and they speak as if they've only fought together once or twice. It's not their forte. In that regard, Sora and Riku compliment each other much better when it comes to fighting.

I also don't think they're sinonyms, but in this case, I think the poor teamwork is due to their personal relationship flaws.
They're excellent warriors training together for years, they should be far better I think.

When we first played the first KH game, we knew nothing about Sora, Kairi, or Riku. We assumed they've been friends for a while. We were told Kairi was not from the island. And... that's about it. They spend majority of the game apart and in the end, were still separated from each other.

I'll have to disagree.
We knew for a fact Sora and Riku were together... well, at least for ten years. Arguably since forever, they were kinda born in a small island and were best friends.
And we know Kairi was with them for 10 years.
That at least gives us an idea of how deep was the bond: they could've flipped this so hard by not stating when Kairi landed on the island. And that would've influenced Riku's obsession over getting her back, making it much more forced, and so on.

We definitely didn't know jack about Axel's past and Roxas and Xion didn't even have a past. That trio had the luxory of having nothing better to do but be with each other every day after work and at home.

It's not strictly about their past, but their past together.
We don't really need to know Axel's past, unless we wanna talk about his friendship with Isa; regarding Roxas and Xion, the entire game was about their relationship. That was almost the entire point of the game.
...sadly.

Why are required to know so much about TAV when no other trio has had such requirements or didn't get these details until later games? Why did all their info need to be in their very first game? That's not to say you shouldn't want more. Of course I want to know more about Terra and Aqua, and I definitely want to learn more about Ven, but I haven't put those expectations on a game that barely fit on the PSP and it's their first intro into the series.

Oh, I'm all up about new development, this is by no mean a closed case; but for now, I did not see that good of a friendship it's all I'm saying.
And we're not obliged to, I guess, it's just poor relationship development.

The solution would have been to treat them more like RAX, but unfortunately that's not what the plot called for or they just didn't have the space.

Another solution could have been to have a longer intro delving into their relationship and characters more like KH1 and KH2, but we know how most of the fandom perceives those tutorial parts of the games and Nomura is very aware of it. He says he evenwants to avoid that in KH3 and jump right into the action.

I will say it wasn't an easy task, yeah.

The entire time we see Aqua waiting and hearing Eraqus speak, she looks pensive and unhappy. Even when Terra comes back and Eraqus dismisses him, Aqua tries to quickly follow after Terra (even opening her mouth for a second like she was about to ask him to wait) and is stopped by Eraqus so he could talk more.

Terra on the other hand, sets out to try to prove himself. He just got a boost of confidence after hearing he could pass goes head first into his adventure. He has no idea what Ven is going to say, but brushes it off. I personally think the thought Ven was going to apologize for him not passing again and Terra is telling him "It's ok." cause hey, I'm gonna come back and get promoted! (or not)

As for Aqua and Ven, Aqua totally treats Ven like a disobedient child on a very long leash. It would have made more sense for Aqua to put more effort in finding and catching him, but she was also trying to follow her other 2 orders: defeat the unversed and watch over Terra. Her hands were tied, but I always wish they could have done more. They should have put more emphasis on catching Ven. In fact, it'd be hilarious to see him trying to hide from her in comical ways.

But I digress. Their ending is fantastic and any future events between them is bound to get even better (She's the only one who can find him, and she is probably the one who can put his heart back where it belongs, among other things)



I think you missed the point of this scene. Maybe it was just me, but this scene seems to have been written to be intentionally awkward. Aqua is trying to talk with this dude and he won't even turn to look at her or speak to her properly. They don't speak like true pals until he brings up Cinderella and they smile at each other, and Aqua walks away happily thinking things are still good between them.

In my personal opinion, subtext says Terra is still a wee bit sour about not passing and Aqua thinks he's mad at her, but that notion is erased when he asks her if she still has the same dream and that he'll keep on believing. That may not be what this scene is saying at all, but that's what it seems to be to me.

Fair enough. A different reading.
I've read the rest, in the end it all lopps around on the take of teamwork and reading.
To me, they're not the greatest trio because I see the flaws in their fighting style linked to how they feel about one another, and how they feel is not so great friendship.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

This bothered me as well. Sure, it leaves room for speculation, but why not just tell us a bit about when Terra and Aqua started training together? Then again, we don't know anything about Ventus's past which also annoys me.



Aqua is heavily neglected throughout the whole game, there's no denying that, but I wasn't too mad about them seperating after the exam. They had been waiting for that day to come and probably never prepared for Terra or Aqua not to pass, so forcing themselves to stay together and talk...I don't know if that would've helped.
Yes, Ventus ist mostly bothered about Terra. Like I said before, Aqua is heavily neglected in all parts, and this is a prove of that. But I'm sure if she had been the one to fail and Terra had passed, Ventus would've reacted the same way. He just wants his friends to be happy.



I. Absolutely. Detest. This. Cutscene.
I probably said it before in other threads, but basically everything about this scene drives me nuts. Aqua and Terra treating each others like strangers. None of them even considering traveling together even though their goal is supposed to be the same. The topic of Ventus being forgotten after three seconds even though Eraqus was devastated at him leaving and you would think that Terra and Aqua would at least almost feel the same.
This whole scene is absolutely awful.

I'm glad my thoughts resonate with someone.
Truly: missed chances.

To be fair, he sort of is. He's the victim of his at least semi-crazy father figure making him feel worth less because there is darkness in his heart, even though Eraqus should know that darkness is in every heart and he can't just "turn it off" by saying "bad darkness. BAAAAD!" and then there's his "friend" Aqua who takes the same line without even trying to think for herself, blindly following orders and - even though she tells Maleficent that she doesn't - suspects him of doing bad stuff even though she has absolutely no proof that it was Terra who hurt anyone.
Besides, he didn't do shit. He was tricked into thinking that he did, yes, but he actually didn't harm Aurora (if you're talking about her).

I'll talk about this later in the Eraqus part.
I'll just say that yes he didn't do anything, but he thought he did. And that whole, kinda concerning things was treated as... Idk, shrugging off and continuing?

If Terra is deaf to reason, I want to know what Eraqus is. You can't just tell someone "hey, there's this part of you inside you that you can't get rid of...but it sucks so go diddly yourself and I won't tell you how you could maybe handle it, I'll just tell you to get rid of it EVEN THOUGH YOU diddlyING CAN'T" and then expect anything good to happen from it. Eraqus gave Xehanort exactly what he needed: A desperate student, insecure with himself, feeling like there was no place for someone like him and that he'd never be good enough because of being who he is.

Here.
Eraqus is AWFUL. I always defend Terra against who call him names for obeying Xehanrt: Terra was a young, poor boyu who failed his only purpose in life. Anbd as far as he knew, Xehanort was a wise and reverred Master. Obviously he followed him.
But Eraqus? Ugh. KH III seems to be featuring him mor and I hope, because he really sucked at being a Master so far.
His Darkness racism definitely created the most troubles.

Actually, she doesn't even believe in herself much at that point, but instead blindly follows what Master Eraqus says without trying to think of other ways.

Her behaving like an obedient puppy was not lost to me, it's another intewresting argument for her character but I didn't want to digress too much.

I don't know about all this.
Sure Sora and Riku were a better team. They had at least fought alongside each other a little against real enemies. All TAV ever did together was train for themselves and not against other enemies.
Sure, rushing in just like that was stupid, but honestly, either way, I don't really think they would've stood a chance even if they tried harder than that.

I guess it's again about hoiw one perceives teamwork.
In addiction to that no, they would've definitely still lose, but... I don't know... better?
The final fight, I should've said this sooner, did not make me feel like what I thought it would've been throughout all of the plot, the great big moment when the three of them showed their true worth as a team.
They fought alone, won alone, lost alone.

I don't have a problem with flawed friendships, Sora and Riku's friendship went through a lot of hardship too before becoming what it is now. It's been years since I played BBS, but I remember feeling that everything was just somehow... shallow. Maybe the empty hollow worlds and my dislike for the battle system had part in it too, but I just didn't really feel anything for most of the game. It didn't really feel like a whole, complete story, and more like I was thrown in the middle of something. Like it was the middle part of a story without the beginning and end, somehow.

I liked Aqua and Vanitas, they felt like something fresh and new in a way, but I found Ven and Terra annoying. To be quite honest even now I don't feel all that much for them, but that can definitely change if we see more of them. I didn't like Riku in KH1 either, and now he's one of my favorites so yeah. I'm looking forward to Ven getting a bigger role especially, learning about his past would be cool. I hope his personality before the whole Vanitas thing was different, that would be interesting and add more to him than just the basic happy naive kid thing he has going for him in BBS.

But I also think that I might be a bit biased, I just love the main cast from KH1-CoM-KH2 so much that I probably didn't play the game with the most open mind. I remember not being too happy about not playing as Sora back then. It's not like any other trios in KH have amazing dynamics either, so it's really a general problem with the writing, too, not just with TAV.

I have similar feelings about the same characters.
And I agree, the fault lies in the writing itself. It's not that the character are no good: they just feel wasted.

 

[Muke]

Why are you even triple posting if you could just edit?

 

[Divine Past]

Given they only had 1 game together and the structure of the game gave TAV a tough hand to really stand out as a group. Days for better or worse made sure the focus of the game was on RAX and while SRK didn't have that many breakthrough moments in KH1, they had a bunch of different games to expand on it which is something TAV never had.

Given the tough hand they were dealt it was still on the poorly handled. Honestly at the start of the game it felt like Aqua and Terra were more work acquaintances than true best friends. Maybe the writers didn't want to make it too sappy because Aqua and Terra are older than Sora/Riku so they might have wanted to go for a more mature theme to the friendship.

Just to me it never seemed like Terra and Aqua would be friends in a real life setting given what they presented on screen other than they are both keyblade wielders. Maybe there is backstory that shows those 2 getting a long great but again we don't know that at all. Ven makes sense in the group as the little kid they need to protect so I don't have as many qualms about his relationship as the others.

So I think it's unfair to label a group after only 1 game because there are growing pains the writers will go through and they can see what worked and what didn't work. So I'll wager future games will be much better at show casing them as a due.

(Then again Terra is an idiot and I can see why Aqua will keep her distance ^_^)

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Why are you even triple posting if you could just edit?

Considering how multi-quoting would've erased names, and how long each response was, I didn't want to make one gigantic Q&A hell.

 

[Muke]

Considering how multi-quoting would've erased names, and how long each response was, I didn't want to make one gigantic Q&A hell.

Would've been better than to break the rules, I guess… (yes, yes, mod wannabe, whatever)

 

[VoidGear.]

Maybe you could put each reply in a spoiler tag next time? That'd make it less messy and keep it in one post