My beef

[Memory Master]

Okay it's really simple:

1. Unversed = Vanitas' negative emotions given physical form.

Since Vanitas is a pure dark being he has the unique ability to actually give his negative emotions a physical form. Even though the unversed are Vanitas' negative emotions given form, they have the ability to feed off the negative emotions of others, such as whenever Lady Tremain became jealous of Cinderella, it attracted the Symphony Master and Cursed Carriage.

Because Unversed are Vanitas' negative emotions given form, they are in essence a part of Vanitas, so when Vanitas was destroyed, the unversed were destroyed with him.

2. Heartless = A heart consumed by darkness.

Heartless are hearts consumed by darkness, and are made when someone loses their heart to the darkness or their heart is consumed by darkness.

So as you can see their is a clear difference between Unversed and heartless.

 

[OmniChaos]

I am a firm supporter of the "Nomura's a bitch becaause he retcons too much and needs to be shot in the kneecaps" movement, but that's not the issue here.

Can I join up?

 

[Genocide]

Can I join up?

Damnit Chris, you and I are the founding members.
Remember, abandon hope? that was the start of something.
We're supposed to be on a wavelength.
I don't have time to express every thought in my head, you're supposed to know.

 

[Ehres]

Okay it's really simple:

1. Unversed = Vanitas' negative emotions given physical form.

Since Vanitas is a pure dark being he has the unique ability to actually give his negative emotions a physical form. Even though the unversed are Vanitas' negative emotions given form, they have the ability to feed off the negative emotions of others, such as whenever Lady Tremain became jealous of Cinderella, it attracted the Symphony Master and Cursed Carriage.

Because Unversed are Vanitas' negative emotions given form, they are in essence a part of Vanitas, so when Vanitas was destroyed, the unversed were destroyed with him.

2. Heartless = A heart consumed by darkness.

Heartless are hearts consumed by darkness, and are made when someone loses their heart to the darkness or their heart is consumed by darkness.

So as you can see their is a clear difference between Unversed and heartless.

I'm going to take a snippet out.

Since Vanitas is a pure dark being he has the unique ability to actually give his negative emotions a physical form.

If Vanitas is a pure dark being, what separates him from the Pureblood Heartless? Aren't they also pure dark beings, too? Isn't he technically a Pureblood Heartless, then? And if so, don't Pureblood Heartless have the ability to create their own Unversed?

Or is the only difference between the two the fact that Vanitas has 'emotions' to some extent, allowing him to create Unversed? I mean, Ansem SoD was also a Heartless with 'emotions', so shouldn't he have been able to create Unversed, too?

I'm really starting to think TN came up with the Unversed after a five minute brain storm.

 

[Memory Master]

I'm going to take a snippet out.



If Vanitas is a pure dark being, what separates him from the Pureblood Heartless? Aren't they also pure dark beings, too? Isn't he technically a Pureblood Heartless, then? And if so, don't Pureblood Heartless have the ability to create their own Unversed?

Or is the only difference between the two the fact that Vanitas has 'emotions' to some extent, allowing him to create Unversed? I mean, Ansem SoD was also a Heartless with 'emotions', so shouldn't he have been able to create Unversed, too?

I'm really starting to think TN came up with the Unversed after a five minute brain storm.

Okay this is the difference between Vanitas and the pureblood heartless. Purebloods are born from the darkness in people's hearts and consume a heart.

Vanitas is the dark half of Ven's heart, with a body and soul created from darkness. See MX just took the dark part of Ven's heart, the part that naturaly has darkness in it and seperated it from the rest of Ven's heart. When this happened the dark part of Ven's heart, became it's own existence A.K.A Vanitas, and this new existence used the darkness to form a body and soul around it's heart which became Vanitas.

One way you could look at it, is that Vanitas is like an Anti-Ven, Vanitas is human because he has body, soul, and heart. But unlike normal people, Vanitas' body and soul are created from darkness, while Vanitas' heart is the dark half of Ven's heart.

Pretty much Vanitas is half of Ven, the dark half.

 

[Anti_Terra122]

actually they arent born from darkness (like heartless) they are born from negative emotions, though darkness does seem to be the by product

also heartless existed since forever, and unverse were an actual creation. though the emblem heartless is similar to the unverse. nomura did say there relatives.

anyways....unverse existence is based off one person, if that person is gone then the others dont exist unlike the heartless, you defeat there leader and they still continue to exist.

heartless can follow anyone that has power. similar to a keyblade but instead of power it's strong heart. heartless rely on instinct but can also take orders. but unverse don't rely on instinct they rely on emotion and they follow one person only (again)

kinda like the nosies in the world ends with you

 

[SoulSilver]

He said that the Unversed were the starting point for the Heartless.

So are they weaker or stronger than the heartless?

 

[Memory Master]

So are they weaker or stronger than the heartless?

Uh.....well personaly I think heartless are stronger than unversed, but I don't think there is anything official that says which is stronger.

 

[gelandporn]

Vanitas is the dark half of Ven's heart, with a body and soul created from darkness.

You made this up to rationalize Vanitas.
He's really no different than a Heartless when you get down to it. Vanitas was born from the darkness of Ven's heart.

Of course, though, that's not what Nomura intended. Vanitas is not a Heartless even though he might as well be one. So it leaves us fans to make up reasons as to why he's not a Heartless.

And, yeah, the Unversed were the most disappointing part about BbS. They weren't precursors to the Heartless/Nobodies like Nomura suggested. They're not even remotely related. And because they were just an isolated incident coming from one person, the Unversed were nothing more than a filler enemy. I admit, basing them off of negative emotions was a novel idea, but restricting them to Vanitas absolutely killed it.

 

[Memory Master]

You made this up to rationalize Vanitas.
He's really no different than a Heartless when you get down to it. Vanitas was born from the darkness of Ven's heart.

Of course, though, that's not what Nomura intended. Vanitas is not a Heartless even though he might as well be one. So it leaves us fans to make up reasons as to why he's not a Heartless.

And, yeah, the Unversed were the most disappointing part about BbS. They weren't precursors to the Heartless/Nobodies like Nomura suggested. They're not even remotely related. And because they were just an isolated incident coming from one person, the Unversed were nothing more than a filler enemy. I admit, basing them off of negative emotions was a novel idea, but restricting them to Vanitas absolutely killed it.

I did not make that up. Okay in the scene where Vanitas was born. We saw the dark half of Ven's heart leave his body. Then we saw darkness circle around the dark half and when the darkness cleared we see Vanitas' body fully formed, and since bodies need a soul, we can safely assume that when the darkness formed around that dark half of the heart, that it was in that time the darkness formed Vanitas' body and soul around his heart.

 

[gelandporn]

I did not make that up. Okay in the scene where Vanitas was born. We saw the dark half of Ven's heart leave his body. Then we saw darkness circle around the dark half and when the darkness cleared we see Vanitas' body fully formed, and since bodies need a soul, we can safely assume that when the darkness formed around that dark half of the heart, that it was in that time the darkness formed Vanitas' body and soul around his heart.

Uh, heartless derp.
Do heartless have bodies? Yes. Just not in the conventional sense. Bodies made from darkness. HMMM... sounds familiar.

 

[OmniChaos]

Then we saw darkness circle around the dark half and when the darkness cleared we see Vanitas' body fully formed, and since bodies need a soul, we can safely assume that when the darkness formed around that dark half of the heart, that it was in that time the darkness formed Vanitas' body and soul around his heart.

So does that mean the Heartless have a body and soul too? What about Sora during CoM or pre-possession XH?

 

[Carbonite]

Meh. We needed mooks. We got mooks with a reasonable explaination for existing.
I'm good.

 

[Ehres]

lol vanitas is retconned to fuck

only this time it doesnt work

 

[Memory Master]

Uh, heartless derp.
Do heartless have bodies? Yes. Just not in the conventional sense. Bodies made from darkness. HMMM... sounds familiar.

Heartless don't have souls, and heartless also cannot think or plan (Except XH of course)

So does that mean the Heartless have a body and soul too? What about Sora during CoM or pre-possession XH?

No, heartless don't have souls, and they can't think of plan like Vanitas can (Except for XH)

 

[OmniChaos]

No, heartless don't have souls, and they can't think of plan like Vanitas can (Except for XH)

So I fail to see why Vanitas would have one. He was the dark part of Ven's heart given a physical form. He's fundamentally the same as the Heartless. As for the last part, I don't see how that really relates to the subject at hand.

 

[gelandporn]

Heartless don't have souls, and heartless also cannot think or plan (Except XH of course)



No, heartless don't have souls, and they can't think of plan like Vanitas can (Except for XH)

I now return to what I said originally: You made that up. Nothing to suggest that Vanitas gained a soul from the darkness, nor would that make any sense. Why does he get a soul and not a Heartless? You're just selectively saying that he got a soul for the sake of justifying the fact that he's not a Heartless.

 

[Horizon's Knight]

Their is only one thing to rationalize this at the moment. Heartless is a Heart claimed by darkness, which means that Heartless still have a sleeping light within them (A.K.A THEIR YELLOW EYES!!!!!!!). Vanitas on the other hand has no light whatsoever. So, Vanitas is a Heartless, but one without the sliightest glimmer of light.

I admit, basing them off of negative emotions was a novel idea, but restricting them to Vanitas absolutely killed it.

I don't think they are. All you need to basically do is split the dark half of a person's Heart, give it a form, and more Unversed can be created from that being.

 

[gelandporn]

Their is only one thing to rationalize this at the moment. Heartless is a Heart claimed by darkness, which means that Heartless still have a sleeping light within them (A.K.A THEIR YELLOW EYES!!!!!!!). Vanitas on the other hand has no light whatsoever. So, Vanitas is a Heartless, but one without the sliightest glimmer of light.

Yellow eyes are not indicative of light, it's the opposite, as we see with MX and Braig.

And there are Heartless who are complete darkness. See: Purebloods. No captive hearts.

I don't think they are. All you need to basically do is split the dark half of a person's Heart, give it a form, and more Unversed can be created from that being.

That's awfully specific. While I won't deny the possibility that they may return, that doesn't change the fact that they were filler in BbS.

 

[Memory Master]

I now return to what I said originally: You made that up. Nothing to suggest that Vanitas gained a soul from the darkness, nor would that make any sense. Why does he get a soul and not a Heartless? You're just selectively saying that he got a soul for the sake of justifying the fact that he's not a Heartless.

I mean come on, just look at him, we know he has a heart, a body, and a body needs something to live off of, so he must have a soul.

Okay here's a good example think of XH when he possesed Riku's body. XH had a heart consumed with darkness, yet he also had a body and Soul (Riku's body and soul) So he was kinda at that period of time a human/heartless hybrid, similar to Vanitas.