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Making Sense of the Xehanorts



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Samhain

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Well, I think Lissar stating Heartstation's translation is more accurate plants a big hole in this theory.
according to most people on this topic this is one of the greatest theories ever even though i completely shot down this theory. yes not in a "sensitive" way tho lol.
[But we also have the ARs, which feels like it's written by a heartless man who doesn't feel like what he's doing is wrong. Terra did say he'd do anything, but I doubt he'd be as heartless as Xehanort was.
to me anyway when i believe terra said "he'd do anything" it maybe to save his friends but why the hell would you create the heartless, nobodies, destroy radiant garden, banish your own master, make ur own universe when he was xemnas, looking for kingdom hearts and trying to plunge the world into darkness all to "save his friends". seriously thats rubbish. its pretty obvious from the start that whether with the eye change or not it was always mx. idk what happened to terra's heart but i believe it somehow was absorbed later on which is why it showed us the brown eyes.
[He makes more sense (in some places, at least) than you give him credit for.

thank u. i appreciate someone actually backing up for me and not everyone thinking i'm a "troll" just because i disregard a theory
[No, it isn't.
However, I really doubt Terra just happened to change his hair to look similar to MX's like it was some sort of fad going around Radiant Garden. That would be a coincidence. No, the reason the hairstyle has been partially altered is to show MX's influence on the vessel.
bingo.

that is something grass never got when i told him why xehanort apprentice hairstyle was changed. either now this is terras vesse; with terra's heart gone from this point but still mx controlling 1 way or another using his own heart regardless whether he has the yellow eyes or not
 

OmniChaos

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according to most people on this topic this is one of the greatest theories ever even though i completely shot down this theory. yes not in a "sensitive" way tho lol.

It's kinda like this every time Grass makes a theory.
 

chex

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Just the way Samhain typed his words made it offensive. Just saying.
 

chasespicer056

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The heart of Master Xehanort or Terra being in control doesn't completely control the destiny of "terranort". Here's one thing we all forget. In this game, the heart doesn't always completely control you. Remember what Riku said to Sora in the ending of KH2 "I wish I could live life the way you do: following my heart".

Now this puts the meaning of the heart in the KH universe in an entirely different perspective. This implies that the heart is like a conscience, and simply influences your decisions rather than completely controlling them. After all, Nobodies in Organization 13 could make decisions on their own, and they didn't have any hearts.

This doesn't mean that the heart is meaningless. It still guides you to make certain choices. From the minute he became Ansem the Wise's apprentice, Terranort was his own person. He may have been influenced by either Terra's heart or Master Xehanort's heart, but he made his decisions on his own.

as for terra's heart..its completely gone by the time xehanort loses his heart or more likely when xehanort apprentice developed the brown eyes and the young master xehanort hair style resemblance

We don't know that for sure. When Terranort first wakes up in Radiant Garden, in the hands of Ansem the Wise, his eyes are still yellow. Later on, in the secret ending, which likely occurs only a few months later because a year after BBS Radiant Garden is devoured by darkness. Now, Terra's heart was never released from his body when Master Xehanort put his heart into Terra's body. So, if his eyes turn from yellow to brown long after he lost his memory, what does that mean? Personally, I think that you only have the yellow eyes if you often use darkness. Because Xehanort didn't use darkness for a while, his eyes became brown again.

What could have made Terra's heart be released. Simple: Xehanort turning into a Heartless, which was your first point. That's what I agree with much more.
 
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blacksamurai2

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according to most people on this topic this is one of the greatest theories ever even though i completely shot down this theory. yes not in a "sensitive" way tho lol.

to me anyway when i believe terra said "he'd do anything" it maybe to save his friends but why the hell would you create the heartless, nobodies, destroy radiant garden, banish your own master, make ur own universe when he was xemnas, looking for kingdom hearts and trying to plunge the world into darkness all to "save his friends". seriously thats rubbish. its pretty obvious from the start that whether with the eye change or not it was always mx. idk what happened to terra's heart but i believe it somehow was absorbed later on which is why it showed us the brown eyes.

Heartless and Nobodys were not intention. And pretty much whatever Grass said explains the rest. Nomura always said that Terra is the kind of person who will do anything to get what he wants.
 
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In KH2 when Sora says to Xemnas "Theres more to a heart than arger and hate, dont you remember?" And Xemnas says "Unfortunately, I dont."

Maybe Terra is so full of anger and hate for Xehanort, and he wants his friends back so badly, he kind of went insane and all he has left is anger and hate...
 

Iridium

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The heart of Master Xehanort or Terra being in control doesn't completely control the destiny of "terranort". Here's one thing we all forget. In this game, the heart doesn't always completely control you. Remember what Riku said to Sora in the ending of KH2 "I wish I could live life the way you do: following my heart".

Even though the KH universe tends to use words in a metaphysical sense, the quote can be taken two ways. Following his heart could refer to Sora's tendency to go through with his actions on a whim; not thinking logically (most of the time that is). While Riku acted based on misguided feelings, rather then listening to his 'heart' in the sense that he wasn't listening to his true emotions/thoughts.

In short: Sora acted more on his emotions, while Riku was just a misguided soul not always acting on how he truly feels.

But it's really up to the player to decide what to make of it; just trying to be fair :)

In KH2 when Sora says to Xemnas "Theres more to a heart than arger and hate, dont you remember?" And Xemnas says "Unfortunately, I dont."

Maybe Terra is so full of anger and hate for Xehanort, and he wants his friends back so badly, he kind of went insane and all he has left is anger and hate...

Or rather, Xemnas knew more then what he was letting on considering his encounter with Aqua's armor in FM and calling it "friend"
 

chasespicer056

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Well, Nomura was right about one thing. Instead of providing us with answers, this game only left us with more questions.

Even though the KH universe tends to use words in a metaphysical sense, the quote can be taken two ways. Following his heart could refer to Sora's tendency to go through with his actions on a whim; not thinking logically (most of the time that is). While Riku acted based on misguided feelings, rather then listening to his 'heart' in the sense that he wasn't listening to his true emotions/thoughts.

In short: Sora acted more on his emotions, while Riku was just a misguided soul not always acting on how he truly feels.

But it's really up to the player to decide what to make of it; just trying to be fair :)

Yeah, to some extent it means following your gut, but my point is this: hearts won't completely control you. How are Nobodies able to move and carry out actions. Because they have a strong will from their soul.

Here are the things I believe hearts can do in this game:
* Provide emotions
* Hold memories (hearts aren't the only things that hold memories, however, because Nobodies retained memories of their somebodies.
* Determine personality
* Control you to some extent.

In the end, Nomura is going to bend and break the rules that he has established. But please, no more changing people's names. First we find out that "Ansem Seeker of Darkness" was really someone named Xehanort, then we discover that that Xehanort was the body of someone named "Terra".
 
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Well, I think Lissar stating Heartstation's translation is more accurate plants a big hole in this theory.

Again, that's why I said that in the first place. I knew full well that the translation could be off.

At the very least, if Braig was the reason Terra kept up his charade, then don't you think Xemnas would have simply disposed of Xigbar once they became Nobodies? He certainly had the power to.

Not really.
Were Braig to follow Terra under the guise of another's name, why wouldn't he continue to use him as an asset even as a Nobody? If anything, it makes more sense for him to keep Xigbar around in that, upon becoming Xemnas, he does have the ability to dispose of him, should Xigbar go against his will.

But that's not the case, so eh. :/
Braig doesn't want to kill Terra (that is interesting- that he'd follow him regardless of who's in control), but one thing I'm still certain of- whatever piece of Terra that is conscious in the Xehanorts still is lying about his identity, for whatever reason.

If not as Xehanort, then certainly at least as Xemnas (the connection is there- what with the whole "friend" scene with Aqua's armor). Why? Was it simply because it was easier for him at that point to continue to assume the identity of another? Hard to say.


But we also have the ARs, which feels like it's written by a heartless man who doesn't feel like what he's doing is wrong. Terra did say he'd do anything, but I doubt he'd be as heartless as Xehanort was.

Read the ARs.
They absolutely don't give off the same persona as MX or Ansem SoD. They are, in a word, inquisitive.
Practically no intimation of that power hungry, darkness obsessed personality is there.

And that's not surprising either, really. They were originally written for the game under the supposition that Ansem (the one we know now as Xehanort's Heartless) was once the ruler of Hollow Bastion (Radiant Garden).

If anything, the Ansem Reports provided a stark contrast. When meeting Ansem SoD, were you not surprised at how different he was as compared to what he had written?

I think it still holds true now, for whatever reason (memory loss or the influence of Terra). Xehanort, for one reason or another, acts differently than MX/Ansem SoD.

No, it isn't.
However, I really doubt Terra just happened to change his hair to look similar to MX's like it was some sort of fad going around Radiant Garden. That would be a coincidence. No, the reason the hairstyle has been partially altered is to show MX's influence on the vessel.

We've already got the display of MX's influence- with the palette swap.
I just don't think a minor change in hairstyle is enough for us to conclude something relevant here, especially considering that, looking at Xehanort's face in that scene, it's still 100% Terra's face. Why would his hair change slightly and his face not at all?

Given that he's a researcher under AtW, is it really that hard to say that he simply pushed his bangs back to give a more refined look? Yes, it looks more so like MX's hair than it did before- which frankly doesn't have to be anything more than irony. Xehanort, under the influence of MX (to whatever degree) changes his hairstyle in a way in which it almost mimics the MX's hairstyle.

You might say that this is still too much of a coincidence, but, as I've said, if you concede that Xehanort's hair looks like MX's intentionally, you must also say as much for Terra's hair. Terra's hair has always looked similar to Xehanort's. Which begs the question- if you think that there would have to be some sort of indication from how Xehanort's hair looks like MX's, wouldn't you also have to think that there was something going on with Terra too? That there's a reason his hair looks like MX's (I'm not saying there is or isn't, just posing the question).


i completely shot down this theory. yes not in a "sensitive" way tho lol.
You never shot down this theory.
The new translation, absolutely, but what you said did nothing.

Anyway, I can always modify this in the future, as it's really certain pieces of the theory that have been busted and not the entire thing itself. I'll probably wait until there's an English release (not because I don't trust Lissar, I do, but just to see how it compares to the translations we have so far).
 

MeggieKeyblader

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This whole post makes sense, and I pretty much agree with all of it... except the part about Terranort lying about losing his memories. I really don't thinik Nomura would do that, having one of the biggest mysteries in the game being a lie all along... that'd be kind of lame. Even though he's the villain, revealing that he was lying all along would still be bad storytelling.

Awesome theory besides that, though.

This whole post makes sense, and I pretty much agree with all of it... except the part about Terranort lying about losing his memories. I really don't thinik Nomura would do that, having one of the biggest mysteries in the game being a lie all along... that'd be kind of lame. Even though he's the villain, revealing that he was lying all along would still be bad storytelling.

EDIT: Also, in Lissar's translation of the Secret Ending, Braig says something along these lines to Terranort...

I thought you were just pretending to lose your memory!

And I feel like they wouldn't put that in if he indeed had lied about losing his memories.

Awesome theory besides that, though.

Read the ARs.
They absolutely don't give off the same persona as MX or Ansem SoD. They are, in a word, inquisitive.
Practically no intimation of that power hungry, darkness obsessed personality is there.

And that's not surprising either, really. They were originally written for the game under the supposition that Ansem (the one we know now as Xehanort's Heartless) was once the ruler of Hollow Bastion (Radiant Garden).

If anything, the Ansem Reports provided a stark contrast. When meeting Ansem SoD, were you not surprised at how different he was as compared to what he had written?

I think it still holds true now, for whatever reason (memory loss or the influence of Terra). Xehanort, for one reason or another, acts differently than MX/Ansem SoD.
Yeah, I agree. When I read the AR's for the first time, I was like, 'Wowzers, this is the same guy that destroyed Radiant Garden and possessed Riku? Sure, you can tell in the Reports that he had a lot of ambition and curiosity, two traits that generally incline toward evil-ness, but he seemed like a relatively innocent scientist, drawn to the secrets of the heart. I'm pretty sure that's the gistl Nomura was going for when he wrote them.
 
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