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Main Plot to World Plot



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People always talk about how in KH1 the stories for the worlds relate to that of the main plot, and KH2 didn't really do that at all. Just how exactly did these worlds boost the main plot?
In KH1:
Destiny Islands: Well, the starting world, you have the whole introduction here.
Traverse Town: This was where Sora's journey really began, with meeting D and G.
Wonderland: This gave Sora a reason to be looking out for captive princesses.
Deep Jungle: Showed Sora about the heart and human interaction, etc.
Olympus Coliseum: I'm not really sure how this world boosted the plot, IMO.
Agrabah: Revealed the intentions of Villains, and Maleficent.
Monstro: Shows Riku's new cruelness and explains powers of the heart.
Halloween Town: The heart again, how strong and weak it can be.
Neverland: Gave Sora a chance to fantasize about flying and such.
Atlantica: Insight about Keyblade's through Triton.
Hallow Bastion: Darkness and such.
End of the World: Climax of story.

Now, it seems as though in KH1, we had several points throughout world plot to main plot. The Keyblade, Darkness and Hearts. These points made a huge difference in the overall plot.
But for KH2, nothing really happened outside from OrgXIII's involvement in other worlds, or... That's honestly all I can think of. We learned nothing about the heart or darkness or the Keyblade. In BBS we saw more plot involvement with examples like Stitch and his Wayfinder, also, Days had much involvement, as Roxas seems influenced by other world's going-ons about his experience with OrgXIII, though it wasn't the same feel as KH1. If anything, Roxas realization's seemed like what you see in FF4 when you hit pause in the new DS version, meaning they weren't that good, and they tended to repeat. COM had as much involvement as KH1 did, Sora frequently learend about memories, WITH the KH1 feel. Re:Coded, well, I can't think of anything for this.

But for this, how do you think they could fix the involvement in the minor Disney worlds to reflect that of the larger plot?
 

Nayru's Love

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Have different worlds mingle with each other. I think it'd go nice with the themes of friendship and connections and whatnot. That, and it'd be pretty mindblowing.
 

localorange

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You mean in future games? Or just KH2? KH2...I don't know. (It could also be because I am ridiculously congested right now and should be in bed, but meh. XD). As far as the future games, it theoretically shouldn't be that hard. I'd like to see a mix of each world having to do something with plot, character development, or both (preferably both, lol). I do think that in 3D however, character development and plot are going to be very often one and the same, since Riku and Sora will have to rise to the level of Keyblade master both physically and emotionally.

Of the top of my head, here's something that would work (I've mentioned this in the Kingdom Hearts Worlds thread) : Lilo and Stitch: Stitch has a Glitch
lilo&stitch1.jpg


Taking place between the original "Lilo and Stitch" and "Stitch: The Movie", "Lilo and Stitch 2" finds the rowdy extraterrestrial getting used to life with his new ohana. However, a malfunction in the ultimate creation of Dr. Jumba soon emerges, which reinstates his destructive programming and threatens to both ruin his friendship with Lilo and to short him out for good!

The summary is a cheesy one from imdb, but still illustrates the basic plot. It would have to be tweaked because most of it revolves around the preparation for a Luau dance (I think), but here's a good place for Riku to visit and it would get any remaining emoness about him and his darkness out of his system. Yes, him and Stitch would clash miserably at first, but through Stitch, Riku would come to realize that he's a good person despite his darkness, and that he should always remember/strive to remember that, chose to stay in the light even though there's his past with darkness, etc etc.

The problem with KH2 was that Malificent's presence was...weak. Incredibly weak, compared to KH1. Same with most of the other bada** Disney Villains. And then when Sora went for round 2 in the Disney Worlds, I found a great deal of the Organization's attempts to cause chaos in the worlds to be a bit pathetic - they almost seemed like they half heartedly threw random stuff at SDG knowing they'll all fade to dusks anyway by the end of the game. The only "Organization XIII messes up a world" plotline that I very much enjoyed was in Beast's Castle. That was well done.
 

Shire Folk

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Simply put, Maleficent didn't have the strength in the second game she needed to be a driving force for Sora to set things right. In the first game she was aided and abetted by her council of villains all seeking to plunge their own worlds into darkness while attaining Kingdom Hearts in order to rule ALL worlds alongside Maleficent. In KH2, Maleficent just had Pete, so there wasn't really a reliable group of strong people to fallback on or boss around. On top of that, there was Organization XIII, and apart from Xaldin they didn't really care about pointedly screwing around with a world, so long as Sora went there and killed sh!t.

So really, the worlds in KH2 were kinda supposed to be random and thrown in there without a plot tying them together except for the original worlds (aka. Hollow Bastion/Radiant Garden, Twilight Town, TWTNW). The games since, however, have had a tie-in, but all but BBS were sticking to the core from KH1 and a couple from 2 in Days, though I repeatedly wished for Deep Jungle.

However, if I have to go through Wonderland, ONE MORE TIME...
 

OathkeeperRoxas XIII

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^ And Isn't that a princess' world too? So we're going back even if we have to drag someone. The issues with KH2 (which I don't have a problem) gets fix in my Another Story of KH2 (Look to my sig) Maleficent I have no clue, but It's not like she was dumb in KH2 (Not Team Rocket dumb)
 

Shire Folk

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I know it's a Princess' world, but Sora's going to be closing on sixteen now and while Underland would be great, 'Wonderland' is chock-full of crazy nonsense that not even Sora would be able to stand anymore. Besides, Sora probably doesn't have that many ranks in Bluff or Diplomacy. Either that or I'm just getting sick and tired of Wonderland and its background music and fetch-quest antics.

And Maleficent was never dumb, she just didn't have the support that she needed. Diablo was a better supporting character for her than Pete was, and Diablo's just her raven familiar!
 

destinykh

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But for KH2, nothing really happened outside from OrgXIII's involvement in other worlds, or... That's honestly all I can think of.

And even the Org's involvement could hardly save the Disney relevance in that game. Aside from some potential that was not fully utilized (i.e. Luxord's experiments with darkness of the heart in Port Royal, Xigbar turning the dragon into a Heartless in Land of Dragons) and the whole of Beast's Castle, most of the Org members were simply reduced to cameos.

But for this, how do you think they could fix the involvement in the minor Disney worlds to reflect that of the larger plot?
They can go the whole hog and blow the 'world order' thing, which is pretty much screwed by this point and have the worlds actually be a part of the universe (something which has not been done well since KH1.) I mean aside from PoHs, Maleficent and Pete, Yen Sid, Mickey, Donald and Goofy, how else does Disney fit into the greater mythology? With the exception of certain worlds, all the main characters have been doing lately is visiting rehashes of Disney movies and potentially learning something in turn. So far, most of the KH universe isn't populated by Disney characters, it's populated with Disney movies.

Alternatively if they insist on the world order thing (and it's ridiculous to expect all the Disney worlds to be tied plotwise to the major plot anyway), they could layer the Disney world plots onto the overall story. Have events or characters in the worlds serve as parallels or reflections of the main plot even if their stories are detached. Since Disney has given the writers free rein to do whatever they want with their characters, they should take advantage of this and have the courage to let the Disney characters expand beyond their assigned movie roles to make a point on the overall story. I mean, plotlines like Ariel being manipulated by Ursula or Hades hiring assassins to kill Hercules can only be done once before it all becomes very very stale. Allow the characters to come alive for once, not have them do variations of their movie roles over and over again.
 

Relix

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And even the Org's involvement could hardly save the Disney relevance in that game. Aside from some potential that was not fully utilized (i.e. Luxord's experiments with darkness of the heart in Port Royal, Xigbar turning the dragon into a Heartless in Land of Dragons) and the whole of Beast's Castle, most of the Org members were simply reduced to cameos.


They can go the whole hog and blow the 'world order' thing, which is pretty much screwed by this point and have the worlds actually be a part of the universe (something which has not been done well since KH1.) I mean aside from PoHs, Maleficent and Pete, Yen Sid, Mickey, Donald and Goofy, how else does Disney fit into the greater mythology? With the exception of certain worlds, all the main characters have been doing lately is visiting rehashes of Disney movies and potentially learning something in turn. So far, most of the KH universe isn't populated by Disney characters, it's populated with Disney movies.

Alternatively if they insist on the world order thing (and it's ridiculous to expect all the Disney worlds to be tied plotwise to the major plot anyway), they could layer the Disney world plots onto the overall story. Have events or characters in the worlds serve as parallels or reflections of the main plot even if their stories are detached. Since Disney has given the writers free rein to do whatever they want with their characters, they should take advantage of this and have the courage to let the Disney characters expand beyond their assigned movie roles to make a point on the overall story. I mean, plotlines like Ariel being manipulated by Ursula or Hades hiring assassins to kill Hercules can only be done once before it all becomes very very stale. Allow the characters to come alive for once, not have them do variations of their movie roles over and over again.

i can't even begin to explain the abundance of truth in this post. Kudos
 

rac7d

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since chain of memeories kh true plot only take places on orginal worlds then just slowly though all the others
 

KHHacker6595

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ok worlds mingling together would be retarded, seeing PotC characters which dont even fit in the Kingdom Hearts universe well mingling with cartoony Peter Pan Character would be stupid and wierd. and no to Undrland or whatever its called, the remake of Alice in Wonderland was complete garbage. I woudn't mind if Wonderland returned as long as they expanded the world and added the Mad Hater and March Hair.
 

.Oji

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The disconnect between the Disney elements and the rest of Kingdom Hearts is nothing short of dereliction and is one of many things in this series that frustrates me. So much good could from fleshing out the Disney stuff beyond the boundaries of their respective movies. Not much bad can come from actually putting the effort into implementing the Disney material in a substantive manner.

Since Disney has given the writers free rein to do whatever they want with their characters, they should take advantage of this and have the courage to let the Disney characters expand beyond their assigned movie roles to make a point on the overall story. I mean, plotlines like Ariel being manipulated by Ursula or Hades hiring assassins to kill Hercules can only be done once before it all becomes very very stale. Allow the characters to come alive for once, not have them do variations of their movie roles over and over again.

I don't think it's a matter of them having the courage to do something like this, it's just―something like this isn't even a blip on their radar; it doesn't register in their heads. So frustrating.

They need to think outside of their bubble(s)―ask Disney to partake in their little brainstorming and start bouncing ideas off of each other or something.

The only "Organization XIII messes up a world" plotline that I very much enjoyed was in Beast's Castle. That was well done.

Pretty good indeed. :)

Know what else was good?―Beast appearing outside of his own world in the first Kingdom Hearts. Remember that? That was great. I want more of that in future installments. lol


ok worlds mingling together would be retarded...

I stopped reading there.
 

KHHacker6595

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I suppose you also think that FF in KH is retarded?
oooh, trying to prove a point huh, well no i dont think Final Fantasy characters would be retarded in Kingdom Hearts. Its already been done and shown to work, but character from the Pirates of the Caribbean, which by the way, are based off live action actors, making it completely different from characters from Final Fantasy or Disney Animated Movies. Characters from Underland wouldn't fit because, again a live action movie in Kingdom Hearts wouldn't work The only reason i think Tron worked was because it was first of all very animated in nature do to the fact that most of the characters features are designed based off the fact that there computer programs. Tron still didn't work that well in my eyes but i accepted it because of the way they incorporated it into the overall plot. I wasn't trying to be rude when i was saying those ideas were retarded, i was only saying that those ideas wouldn't work, making them mess up Kingdom Hearts, making them stupid ideas, therefore making them retarded. The ideas are not stupid as long as there not in kingdom hearts, maybe a different Disney game
 

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I personally think people are forgetting Disney are an active force in this mess and that's part of the problem. Conspiracy theories involving Kairi's very existence in the series in light of SoRi's abundant gay vibes aside, in a game that was conceived with Mickey Mouse as the main role, they were only allowed to use him once in KH1.
They're the copyright owners, both for the Disney-original as well as the Squarenix original cast. Never forget that, as much as Nomura's shenanigans frustrate me at times. I'll blame him for what he does with the Squeniz original, but some of what he doesn't do with the Disney might not be his fault as much as, well, Disney's.
As for the topic post:

Traverse Town: This was where Sora's journey really began, with meeting D and G.

The world actually has a lot more importance than that. The TT gang ties directly to the overall story by introducing "Ansem" and explaining the Darkness. They support Sora throughout the entire game, both by gameplay means (abilities, magic, summons and Gummi) as well as story-means, by being SDG's guiding figures in the game because they came originally from Hollow Bastion, the one plot world to rule them all in KH1.

Deep Jungle: Showed Sora about the heart and human interaction, etc.

Human interaction indeed. Let's face it, SDG getting along with each other right off the bat would've been hard to take. It doesn't make sense. Three strangers, all with what seemed at first to be contradicting motives. Throw in that Donald's a bastard in his own right sometimes and you get the need for some major development between the three. Seeing how KH1 managed to balance well characters and plot, some character insight was a must and to me, is why Deep Jungle is priceless.

Olympus Coliseum: I'm not really sure how this world boosted the plot, IMO.

It introduced Cloud who later tied into things. You also have Hades and then Maleficent popping in for a visit. It's about the one world that I can say I'm remotely dissatisfied with in KH1, but compared to what happened in KHII? Still bearable. It also helped flesh out Sora's own tragedy in a bit by showing what might happen to him if he lost sight of his Light while searching for him - he'd end up like Cloud.

Neverland: Gave Sora a chance to fantasize about flying and such.

...wha? Neverland had Riku in it. By the very definition of KH1 as more or less the worsening conflict between Sora and Riku, it's one of the worlds that had more plot in it. It's also the first world where Kairi's at least a face, and not some illusion Sora sees or a name Sora and Riku throw back and forth between them.

Now, it seems as though in KH1, we had several points throughout world plot to main plot. The Keyblade, Darkness and Hearts. These points made a huge difference in the overall plot.

I think it's because the story-format was built for it. Much like how in Days, there was a purpose to going to the Disney worlds - both for the characters (missions) and for the story (Roxas and Xion's growth through interacting with the other members and the Disney characters), in KH1 it was also like that.
In too many other games if not ALL of them, the Disney visits became relatively a mandatory thing, more "this is KH so we need Disney worlds" as opposed to giving them an actual meaning.
Ironically, Stitch's world in BBS that you liked was put in because "it looked fun" (Nomura's thought process scares me). Though I will give it that in the absence of plot, in order for them to tie it into the game SOMEHOW they played on the Wayfinder issue and gave TAV a glimpse of development at least.

COM had as much involvement as KH1 did, Sora frequently learend about memories, WITH the KH1 feel. Re:Coded, well, I can't think of anything for this.

The difference is that in Re:coded D-Sora really was going through what the real Sora went through in KH1, or as close to a version as possible. In CoM Namine altered the stories, shifting the focus from Hearts to Memories and most likely tried to warn Sora and tell him the truth (Halloween Town, True Memories aren't something you really want, anybody?).

But for this, how do you think they could fix the involvement in the minor Disney worlds to reflect that of the larger plot?

Flesh out the main villains better. This means both a better written organization that runs the show (seriously. Maleficent ruling with an iron fist? Golden) as well as a better connection to the Disney worlds. Part of why KH1 worked so well was because the main villains hailed from the Disney worlds, so that by definition meant that world boss = plot boss = boss you won't really be wasting your time on, as opposed to, oh iono - KHII Scar..
In KHII, about the only place where this was felt properly was in Beast's Castle and a tiny bit in the Land of Dragons - but the difference was that Xaldin was established there from the very beginning while Xigbar was thrown in as though to make sure he got screen time.
In BBS at the very least TAV themselves tried to maintain the World Order thingie, so they didn't get in too deep in the worlds' messes. Even when Terra supposedly ran that errand for the Evil Queen, it was to get information about Xehanort from her and Snow White was a Princess to that supposedly was also a lead for him.
 

Nayru's Love

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oooh, trying to prove a point huh, well no i dont think Final Fantasy characters would be retarded in Kingdom Hearts. Its already been done and shown to work,
Yeah, you feel that way because you know it worked. Would you be able to say the same thing if KH didn't exist, and that there was no way of telling if the two worlds were compatible with each other?

but character from the Pirates of the Caribbean, which by the way, are based off live action actors, making it completely different from characters from Final Fantasy or Disney Animated Movies. Characters from Underland wouldn't fit because, again a live action movie in Kingdom Hearts wouldn't work The only reason i think Tron worked was because it was first of all very animated in nature do to the fact that most of the characters features are designed based off the fact that there computer programs. Tron still didn't work that well in my eyes but i accepted it because of the way they incorporated it into the overall plot. I wasn't trying to be rude when i was saying those ideas were retarded, i was only saying that those ideas wouldn't work, making them mess up Kingdom Hearts, making them stupid ideas, therefore making them retarded. The ideas are not stupid as long as there not in kingdom hearts, maybe a different Disney game
You're not necessarily against the idea of Disney worlds mixing with each other, you're against the idea of incompatible Disney worlds mixing with each other. Just because there's one bad example doesn't mean that all other examples are going to be bad. Hell, we already have a slight example of how the interaction between worlds can be awesome: The whole "Legion of Doom" thing that the Disney Villains had going on in KH1.
 

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Yeah, you feel that way because you know it worked. Would you be able to say the same thing if KH didn't exist, and that there was no way of telling if the two worlds were compatible with each other?

Actually, this very reasoning is still used by people to explain why they don't bother with KH, because they can't imagine it working and don't want to try.
 

Zul

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You're not necessarily against the idea of Disney worlds mixing with each other, you're against the idea of incompatible Disney worlds mixing with each other. Just because there's one bad example doesn't mean that all other examples are going to be bad. Hell, we already have a slight example of how the interaction between worlds can be awesome: The whole "Legion of Doom" thing that the Disney Villains had going on in KH1.

I did like that, and I find it sad that they took it in such a shallow direction in KH2, with Maleficent becoming a side-show and randomly bringing back random members of her old crew(Oogie Boogie..ect).

As much as some people validly argue that we put KH1 on a pedestal when it comes to Disney plot integration, it really did feel a step above the other games in that regard.
 

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People claim KH1 is put on a pedestal overall because they don't find it to be all that good in and of itself. But compared to the rest of the series I think it's justified.
What's sad is that the more they progress in the series the more they're intent on reusing the same worlds. It's like Nomura's scared of bringing in new worlds or something... though in light of BBS I'm not sure he'd know what to do with them even if he did :\
What was so good in KH1 was that the Disney worlds were the plot, not some mandatory gameplay format he had to stick by.
 
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