Lingering Will Discussion (Originally: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?)

[Gram]

Just be reminded, though, that LW distinguishing that Sora was not the one it chose as Terra falls within the same frame as the ensuing battle, which hasn't been confirmed as canon and thus might not have happened at all. As long as we keep this in mind, we're okay.

There is also the fact that the LW only had such a reaction to Sora was because it mistook him for Xehanort.
So even if the battle is confirmed in kh3 (like how the Xemnas battle was in kh2) I doubt it'll go into a frenzy again.

 

[Draxem]

Just had a really interesting and amusing moment to myself there when looking up some stuff about Birth By Sleep.

It appears that three years ago, this very site published an article with a quote from Nomura proving that both Lingering Will and Mysterious Figure and their battles are canon to the series.

http://www.khinsider.com/news/BbS-Degenki-Interview-1497

"-As Nomura says in the interview "The new secret boss will be like how Lingering Sentiment was to KH2FM. You will think it's impossible that that can happen at that time of the story, but it actually happens." So yeah, confirming LS and the new secret boss are canon."

Does everyone who consistently debates whether the fight was canon or not feel a little stupid now? There's a good few of you.

 

[Solo]

And this excerpt, I got from the very same link you provided.

Q: The North American version of BBS is to be released soon?
Nomura: Yes, it will be released Sept 7. Even though we've added many things, the story has changed little. Mark Hamill will be voicing Master Eraqus, And the voice of Master Xehanort is Leonard Nimoy. -ramble about Star Trek that makes NO BLOODY SENSE- A new mysterious enemy has been added. It's terribly strong, so winning is an achievement. You meet it twice (possibly? I'm guessing that this is what that refers to), and Debacker had to try twenty times before defeating it once.

Q: Is it stronger than the Vanitas Sentiment?
Nomura: We took a survey, and some people thought it was a little stronger than the Vanitas Sentiment, but others thought it was far stronger. Like the Lingering Sentiment of KH2FM+, its attacks are hard to predict, unlike the Vanitas Sentiment, which has movements that are fairly easy to read. The new enemy will use nefarious tricks.

Q: Is the new character also involved with the story?
Nomura: As with the Lingering Sentiment, at the time of KHBBS I can't reveal that.

Q: And the other major changes?
Nomura: Mega Flare proved too strong and violent, so we've weakened that ability. In addition, there were complaints about the reward for defeating the Vanitas Sentiment, so you will now receive his Keyblade as a prize. Such a modifitcation is a fun novelty that fits well in KH tradition.

Q: Is there a new secret movie?
Nomura: No, sadly there is not, because we didn't have additional time. Instead, look to RE:Coded to prepare you for the secret movie. Please look forward to that, as NA gets no mobile content (implied: thus this is new content for NA). We considered many things, including KHays in the making of the secret movie.

Nowhere in that interview did Nomura say that the battles happened. He only said about how the enemy in question, which is Young Xehanort, employs difficult-to-predict attacks and crazy tricks.

If there's an interview that explicitly states, without a doubt, that the battles are canon, by all means, please inform us about it. We'd like to have a look, but so far there hasn't been any, which is why it's still hazy right now. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been any doubt.

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk who always plays the contrarian, but I just want to help keep everyone from getting misinformed.

 

[Gram]

And this excerpt, I got from the very same link you provided.



Nowhere in that interview did Nomura say that the battles happened. He only said about how the enemy in question, which is Young Xehanort, employs difficult-to-predict attacks and crazy tricks.

If there's an interview that explicitly states, without a doubt, that the battles are canon, by all means, please inform us about it. We'd like to know, too.

lol Ninja'd. But yes, the intnerview you quoted mentions nothing on canoncity only mentions how the boss battle behaves. The quote you got mentioned there is nowhere in this interview with nomura.

Does everyone who consistently debates whether the fight was canon or not feel a little stupid now

This line is rather childish dont you think? But since you went there, now who feels stupid? =P

EDIT::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

I'd also like to point out something you dont seem to comprehend, no one is saying the secret battles DIDN'T happen just that nothing has proven they DID either.

Meaning that what people are saying is there is no confirmation EITHER WAY. Thus why the topics are treaded on lightly.

 

[Draxem]

And this excerpt, I got from the very same link you provided.



Nowhere in that interview did Nomura say that the battles happened. He only said about how the enemy in question, which is Young Xehanort, employs difficult-to-predict attacks and crazy tricks.

If there's an interview that explicitly states, without a doubt, that the battles are canon, by all means, please inform us about it. We'd like to know, too.

Honestly I've had this debate so many times now on this forum. Just because Nomura doesn't mention the fights it doesn't mean they become ambiguous, the characters were implemented into the story with their fights for a reason. Fair one I can give you some leeway with Mysterious Figure because it would be impossible for Terra or Ventus to fight him at the moment he becomes available, but have you actually watched or fought Lingering Will yourself? Pay attention.

[video=youtube;W9uCkW9ZRtQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9uCkW9ZRtQ[/video]

I just want you to pay attention to what the LW actually says to Sora before and after the battle, he explicitly mentions Sora's power post battle (recognizing Ven within him), now does that ring any bells? Xemnas in KH1's secret battle followed a similar route.

Now I want you to please, show me in some way that the fight with Lingering Will could not be canon when he references it himself. Nomura has stated the character was canon, not just an allusion to another part of the story, he's really there. So if he's really there and he even references the fight he JUST HAD with Sora, how can that possibly be not canon?

Edit: I don't feel remotely stupid, I simply can not fathom why people even debate whether this battle didn't happen when it's referenced immediately after in game.

 

[Gram]

The secret battles are implemented for a reason but they, so far, have largely been to introduce concepts. Also what the LW says doesn't matter, I mean really what does mentioning someones power have to do with ANYTHING?

What Xemnas said was about Sora being incomplete.

Yes the character is canon but that doesn't mean the fight is.

And again I point out something you dont seem to comprehend, no one is saying the secret battles DIDN'T happen just that nothing has proven they DID either.

Meaning that what people are saying is there is no confirmation EITHER WAY. Thus why the topics are treaded on lightly.

Your taking this as meaning everyone is saying he can't be canon at all when their not saying anything close and getting all angry over it for no reason.

 

[Solo]

First and foremost I would like to truly apologise to those who are already fed up with this canon / non-canon debate. I was the one who brought it upon this thread a few posts back, and I ask that you direct your frustration, if you're mad, to me and no other people.

Now on this matter. The fact that this battle is optional (and also post-game, if memory serves me right) is precisely why it might not have happened, unless something outside this event, one that is canon or known to be canon, at least makes a reference to it. The pre- and post-battle cutscenes with LW still falls within the frame and bounds of the event, so they are all of the same questionable canonicity.

If later on Sora mentioned it to someone else that he did fight an animated suit of armour in the wasteland, only then can we know that the fight really happened.

Also, let's have a civil conversation and don't go about calling people names.

 

[Draxem]

Mentioning someone's power because he just fought him and lost, furthermore saw that Ventus had taken shelter inside of him. Xemnas said "let me test your strength" before they fought. Aren't strength and power (see line above) two pretty similar things? At least in terms of combat.

No, what I don't comprehend is why the diddly anyone would assume the battles didn't happen in the first place if they're in the game, how can that not sound ridiculous to you? I'm not taking it as people not believing him canon at all and I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. What is the point debating if something is canon or not if its in the game, you don't doubt anything else that happened in KH2FM so why doubt something completely relevant to the plot and something you actually played through. It's just stupid to me, real stupid, like speculating for the sake of speculating or picking at straws.

Edit: "Animated suit of armour", do you realise this is a game full of disney characters? nothing is too far fetched.

I'm not angry or mad, this discussion will never end if it doesn't stop here because there's no way of proving either of us right, and if LW doesn't appear again for whatever reason (there will already be too many characters in the final struggle in my opinion) then we'll probably never know unless Nomura says it himself straight out.

 

[Solo]

Mentioning someone's power because he just fought him and lost, furthermore saw that Ventus had taken shelter inside of him. Xemnas said "let me test your strength" before they fought. Aren't strength and power (see line above) two pretty similar things? At least in terms of combat.

That they said something along the similar line doesn't really amount to anything in proving or disputing the canonicity. The LW could also quote every conversation that Sora had been engaged in thus far and still he would be no more or no less canon than he is.

No, what I don't comprehend is why the diddly anyone would assume the battles didn't happen in the first place if they're in the game, how can that not sound ridiculous to you? I'm not taking it as people not believing him canon at all and I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. What is the point debating if something is canon or not if its in the game, you don't doubt anything else that happened in KH2FM so why doubt something completely relevant to the plot and something you actually played through. It's just stupid to me, real stupid, like speculating for the sake of speculating or picking at straws.

That's due to the fact that just because it's in the game, it does not necessarily mean that it occurred. You said it yourself when talking about Young Xehanort; it's impossible for Terra and Ventus to encounter him at the moment he became available because the circumstances didn't allow them to.

Also, let me just quote myself on another example:

Consider Blank Points as an example, which canonically happens after Ansem the Wise was sent to the Realm of Darkness thanks to his machine exploding; at the end, we see various characters saying Sora's name, but it doesn't mean that they really did because, as we know, at that time Namine wasn't in the white room, Roxas and Xion has returned to Sora, Axel was no longer around, Ventus was still in Castle Oblivion, and Terra (at least his body) was Xemnas.

And...

Edit: "Animated suit of armour", do you realise this is a game full of disney characters? nothing is too far fetched.

I'd like to straighten things out. I did not dispute or deny the LW being exactly that. I said that knowing full well that it is a fact, that it's what it really is: an animated suit of armour powered by Terra's thoughts.

 

[Gram]

Mentioning someone's power because he just fought him and lost, furthermore saw that Ventus had taken shelter inside of him. Xemnas said "let me test your strength" before they fought. Aren't strength and power (see line above) two pretty similar things? At least in terms of combat.

Though they are similar that doesn't make it proof. If it worked that way I could link all kinds of random characters in various stories for using similar lines to one another.

No, what I don't comprehend is why the diddly anyone would assume the battles didn't happen in the first place if they're in the game, how can that not sound ridiculous to you? I'm not taking it as people not believing him canon at all and I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. What is the point debating if something is canon or not if its in the game, you don't doubt anything else that happened in KH2FM so why doubt something completely relevant to the plot and something you actually played through. It's just stupid to me, real stupid, like speculating for the sake of speculating or picking at straws.

It's because not everything that appears on the game is canon. Mirage arena is confirmed to have simulated battles (namely No Heart and Armor of the Master) meaning nothing there is canon and then you have the kh1 bonus battles in the coliseum.
Despite fighting Sephiroth in kh1 Sora had no idea who he was in kh2.

The reason the LW is called into question is because it isn't opened until the main story is over. Sure you can place it in the story but we dont know if it happened until it's mentioned TO HAVE happened.

If you dont want words put in your mouth then dont act in a way contradicting your words. And other dont appreciate you calling what they view stupid just because you get pissed they disagree with you on a matter.
Its childish and makes others not want to bother with you.

Edit: "Animated suit of armour", do you realise this is a game full of disney characters? nothing is too far fetched.

I'm not angry or mad, this discussion will never end if it doesn't stop here because there's no way of proving either of us right, and if LW doesn't appear again for whatever reason (there will already be too many characters in the final struggle in my opinion) then we'll probably never know unless Nomura says it himself straight out.

You say your not angry but you dont seem to be calm either.

And again your misunderstanding there is nothing for us to "prove right" because we dont stand on either side of the spectrum. We simply point out that the battle is in iffy territory.

The only one with something to "prove right" in this little pet peeve of yours is you.

 

[Draxem]

The Xemnas quote wasn't supposed to serve as proof it was simply a reference to something similar that occurred and turned out to be canon. Why does the LW need to be brought into question if Nomura has stated that he is really in there, sure the main story is over but there's a reason he's been put in there? I simply feel that with that quote that MS and LW's appearances should be given some actual credit within canon.

This is just going to go round in circles, like it always does, and why would I care what people on a forum that I will never meet in my life think of me? I come here to discuss a gaming series with people and to read people's takes on things and theories. I don't come here to make online friends and regardless that is completely irrelevant.

There's no point continuing this let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Gram]

and why would I care what people on a forum that I will never meet in my life think of me? I come here to discuss a gaming series with people and to read people's takes on things and theories. I don't come here to make online friends and regardless that is completely irrelevant.

Has nothing to do with what I said. What I was getting at is why would anyone want to discuss anything with you when this is how you act just because they disagree with you? (referring to other opinions as stupid just because they disagree doesn't endorse good discussion)

There's no point continuing this let's just agree to disagree.

To me there is nothing to agree or disagree about, as the stance I'm pointing out is the fight could go either way because it hasn't been confirmed either.

 

[Solo]

And we've provided our take and stance on this issue.

I second your proposition to stop here. There's no point in continuing this discussion because we can't seem to arrive at an agreement other than this. It's been a fine discussion; well, could have gone better, perhaps, but let's not take things overboard.

Once again I would like to apologise for having instigated this out of the blue.

 

[Draxem]

Solosis has it right, leave it there.

 

[kupo1121]

Wish I could rename the thread (if I can someone tell me how), cause I think another very interesting point would be the Lingering Wills reaction to meeting Riku, seeing as it was able to distinguish that Sora was "not the one he chose".

Just gonna skip back past that canon/non-canon battle to go back to this post I honestly don't think LW would care much. Ignoring whether or not he is canon, the only reason LW would attack Riku is because he might feel a connection between him and MX with Riku's darkness inside of him, but ultimately, LW could care less about SRK or anyone that wasn't in BbS. I know he harbors Terra's hatred towards MX but I don't think he recalls the moment between Terra and Riku, I doubt either of them even remember it fondly.

 

[Draxem]

Just gonna skip back past that canon/non-canon battle to go back to this post I honestly don't think LW would care much. Ignoring whether or not he is canon, the only reason LW would attack Riku is because he might feel a connection between him and MX with Riku's darkness inside of him, but ultimately, LW could care less about SRK or anyone that wasn't in BbS. I know he harbors Terra's hatred towards MX but I don't think he recalls the moment between Terra and Riku, I doubt either of them even remember it fondly.

I think given that he knows sora wasn't the one he chose, he would remember. I don't expect anything dramatic, maybe it possibly noticing Riku's resistance from darkness.

All I wanna see is its reaction to Xemnas or Xehanorts Heartless

 

[Solo]

It's probably not that LW would remember Sora because he didn't choose him. He wouldn't care because to him, it's likely that Sora is just another face in the crowd, unlike Riku whom he actually interacted with as Terra. I don't remember clearly, but wasn't Sora actually not nearby when Terra passed the ability to wield the Keyblade to Riku?

However, if Sora comes across LW before Ventus was rescued, then LW might recognise Sora as being familiar and it could possibly trigger a reaction from him.

 

[Draxem]

It's probably not that LW would remember Sora because he didn't choose him. He wouldn't care because to him, it's likely that Sora is just another face in the crowd, unlike Riku whom he actually interacted with as Terra. I don't remember clearly, but wasn't Sora actually not nearby when Terra passed the ability to wield the Keyblade to Riku?

However, if Sora comes across LW before Ventus was rescued, then LW might recognise Sora as being familiar and it could possibly trigger a reaction from him.

From the cutscene it would suggest that it recognizes Terra passed on the ability to wield but it has found itself in the hands of someone else (Sora). Obviously there's no way to confirm or deny this, just speculation

 

[Gram]

Came across this will looking for tidbits on Ansem:

Q13: What is the true form of Lingering Sentiment?
A: After Terra lost his body, his thoughts gathered into his armor.

At the end of Terra’s scenario, Master Xehanort had commandeered his body, so his thoughts took control of his armor. Afterward, the armor stayed in the keyblade graveyard, until KHII FM where “Lingering Sentiment” went against Sora. Because he saw that it was not his chosen one Riku using a keyblade, but Sora, he grew suspicious and thought he had something to do with Master Xehanort and attacked him.

After fighting him, LS says this because he feels Ventus inside of Sora.

Source: BBS Ultimania - 20 Mysteries Solved! - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

Up till now I have pointed out that whether the battle happened is neither confirmed nor not since not everything that happens in game fits into the story. (such as Terra being able to battle MF story wise or how Sora doesn't know Sephiroth in kh2 despite the kh1 battle which shows the kh1 battle likely never happened)

But I found this in the BBS ultmania, you literally have Nomura saying the LW did fight Sora thus finally putting an end to the questionably of the matter. Thankfully


EDIT::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

On topic, taking what the quote points out, I dont think Riku would get much of a reaction out of LS since he knows him as the one Terra chose.
Sora got such a volatile reaction because it suspected MX's influence. (what seems to have calmed it was it sensing Ven's' presence, after sora battled it to a stand still anyway)

 

[Draxem]

I feel thoroughly victorious.