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Lingering Will Discussion (Originally: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?)



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Zettaflare

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

I don`t think the Lingering Will will become a Light or Darkness. Though I can see him taking place in the final battle since the Keyblade Graveyard is his current location.
 

Gram

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

I had once floated the idea that Eraqus could take up residence in Lingering Will...

But we know thats not the case. Whatever the LW truly is or how its formed is a mystery but what we do know is it was born from Terras intense hatred of MX and his lingering thoughts. Its not tied to Eraqus and the revival process that brought MX back is a process that specifically restores a heart to its discarded/lost body, not to some random animated armor a heart has no ties to.
 

blksabbath74

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

But we know thats not the case. Whatever the LW truly is or how its formed is a mystery but what we do know is it was born from Terras intense hatred of MX and his lingering thoughts. Its not tied to Eraqus and the revival process that brought MX back is a process that specifically restores a heart to its discarded/lost body, not to some random animated armor a heart has no ties to.

One word...fiction...

It's not like there is an underlying metaphysics that the writers and designers are confined by...they can do whatever they want.

Not saying I think it will happen, but...
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

One word...fiction...

It's not like there is an underlying metaphysics that the writers and designers are confined by...they can do whatever they want.

Not saying I think it will happen, but...

If we said this in every theory thread, we'd never have any lasting discussions.

What we do have as "proof" and "laws" are what the series has shown us and what Nomura has said in his interviews. By that we can build on the possibilities of the future games. If that weren't possible with the given, we wouldn't have a high rate of accurately guessing the events of these games.
 

Gram

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

One word...fiction...

It's not like there is an underlying metaphysics that the writers and designers are confined by...they can do whatever they want.

Not saying I think it will happen, but...
Do you not follow series often or something? Every story, even fiction, has in story laws and rules the characters follow such as the laws of time established in DDD or the universal law of how nobodies and heartless are born and reconstructed.

Everything has laws they follow, in any story, in any setting, AND any work of fiction.
The laws and rules of a story are what set the things the world and characters abide by, its basic story telling.

If it worked like you believe it did anything would be possible and all works of fiction would just be a crazy mess with no direction.

You ignoring this basic fact is the same as ignoring the very story you claim to be reading/watching. Which, in such a case, you minds well not be following because your ignorig important details of said story.

And in the case of KH, the laws in which the series functions by are either stated in game through journal, a character, or by nomura himself in interviews.
 
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Solo

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

Not to mention that such outlandish deus-ex-machina hypotheses would only ruin the story. Imagine if everything can be justified with this "fiction" card; practically we could, and would, throw all kinds of things within a very broad scope, many of which are also likely to be completely far-fetched. I personally would just brush aside a theory that says that Roxas does actually not have a heart which is backed only by the person saying, "It's fiction, so anything can happen" because it simply does not conform with the facts that have been established.

We thankfully have a very clear domain, defined by the Ultimania, the game, and Nomira himself, within which we can come up with theories, resulting in more substantiated and focused coming-up of hypotheses. Working in this domain allows us to think and hypothesise about things without veering away from the canon.
 

blksabbath74

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

If we said this in every theory thread, we'd never have any lasting discussions.

What we do have as "proof" and "laws" are what the series has shown us and what Nomura has said in his interviews. By that we can build on the possibilities of the future games. If that weren't possible with the given, we wouldn't have a high rate of accurately guessing the events of these games.

Good answer, although I would point out that I am the one reacting to MY hypothesis, unlikely as it may be, being shot down because it is ‘not possible.’

Do you not follow series often or something? Every story, even fiction, has in story laws and rules the characters follow such as the laws of time established in DDD or the universal law of how nobodies and heartless are born and reconstructed.

Cool, so which of those laws was followed when Sora became a Heartless, then regained a body while Roxas and Namine were created?

Everything has laws they follow, in any story, in any setting, AND any work of fiction.
The laws and rules of a story are what set the things the world and characters abide by, its basic story telling.

Laws established, and then frequently changed by the author. There was a huge amount of retconning to the Kingdom Hearts Cosmology between KH1 and CoM/KH2, not to mention numerous exceptions to the rule.


If it worked like you believe it did anything would be possible and all works of fiction would just be a crazy mess with no direction.

Anything in FICTION is possible, and the author provides the structure to keep it from being a ‘crazy mess,’ although sometimes crazy messes can be fun too.

You ignoring this basic fact is the same as ignoring the very story you claim to be reading/watching. Which, in such a case, you minds well not be following because your ignorig important details of said story.

Calm down Francis…

Not to mention that such outlandish deus-ex-machina hypotheses would only ruin the story. Imagine if everything can be justified with this "fiction" card; practically we could, and would, throw all kinds of things within a very broad scope, many of which are also likely to be completely far-fetched. I personally would just brush aside a theory that says that Roxas does actually not have a heart which is backed only by the person saying, "It's fiction, so anything can happen" because it simply does not conform with the facts that have been established.

We thankfully have a very clear domain, defined by the Ultimania, the game, and Nomira himself, within which we can come up with theories, resulting in more substantiated and focused coming-up of hypotheses. Working in this domain allows us to think and hypothesise about things without veering away from the canon.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man!
 
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kupo1121

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

What happened to anything being able to grow a heart? I'm hoping LS becomes a "Guardian" in some way,shape, or form. Growing its own heart, gaining some sort of consciousness, and protecting the lands or being commanded as a safe guard or Chaser. Something akin to that massive steel armor in the Thor movie.

Well from what I understand, it isn't anything that can grow a heart, but any body, and a body would consist of all the memories, experiences, etc. I doubt that lamp that sat in Sora's room had a heart...that would be just awkward if every grain of sand in KH had a heart so Sora is killing sand as he walks on it <__< The armor is a thing, just like a lamp, but it is controlled by Terra's will. Terra's will isn't a body, so terra's will cannot have a heart (as far as has been stated thus far).

Cool, so which of those laws was followed when Sora became a Heartless, then regained a body while Roxas and Namine were created?

Wait, which law wasn't followed? Sora voluntarily extracted his heart to remove both his and Kairi's. When he did that, he lost his heart and thus became a heartless, falling to darkness. When a heartless is born, so is a nobody out of that person's body. Sora's body became Roxas, however, what exactly happened with Namine, while yet unexplained fully, can be figured out. Sora's heart left Sora's body creating Roxas, but what happened with Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body? Well, it created Namine, who is clearly a special Nobody given it wasn't normal process for the creation of a Nobody.
 

Gram

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

Good answer, although I would point out that I am the one reacting to MY hypothesis, unlikely as it may be, being shot down because it is ‘not possible.’
No one once said 'impossible' just that under what we currently know its incredibly unlikely or probable.

A theory is a possible scenario with evidence to back up the idea. You've not provided such evidence therefore you have no viable theory.


Cool, so which of those laws was followed when Sora became a Heartless, then regained a body while Roxas and Namine were created?

kupo1121 said:
Wait, which law wasn't followed? Sora voluntarily extracted his heart to remove both his and Kairi's. When he did that, he lost his heart and thus became a heartless, falling to darkness. When a heartless is born, so is a nobody out of that person's body. Sora's body became Roxas, however, what exactly happened with Namine, while yet unexplained fully, can be figured out. Sora's heart left Sora's body creating Roxas, but what happened with Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body? Well, it created Namine, who is clearly a special Nobody given it wasn't normal process for the creation of a Nobody.
This^
There was not one law that wasn't followed in that moment. Sora became a heartless and a nobody (Roxas) was born from his body+soul.
And nomura done explained the part were Kairi turns sora back into sora. She purified him giving him his humanity back but he was incomplete and, as nomura pointed out, sora was a 'walking heart' up until Roxas returns to in at the start of kh2.

Even Namine followed established laws, she was born as a heart left a body, the only difference is it was kairi's heart that formed her.
The only mystery of this situation is how Namine can exist but not one law was ignored here.

Laws established, and then frequently changed by the author. There was a huge amount of retconning to the Kingdom Hearts Cosmology between KH1 and CoM/KH2, not to mention numerous exceptions to the rule.
This is a blatant lie. All authors try to follow the laws they set forth. The only time they change is if there is a in-universe reason behind it.

Name on so called retcon.


Anything in FICTION is possible, and the author provides the structure to keep it from being a ‘crazy mess,’ although sometimes crazy messes can be fun too.
Yes anything is possible but your ignoring the fact that they provide reasons for why something happens thus adding structure THROUGH laws.

For you maybe but for everyone else we want a structured story were we can tell what is happening rather than just random crazy everywhere.


Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man!
Your right it is his opinion, everyone has one. However that doesnt mean he's wrong. Just cause everyone has opinions doesn't mean all of them are right.

If you want to go by yours that's fine but nothing will change the fact that, by current in-universe laws, your 'theory' is about as likely as silver rain.
 
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Oracle Spockanort

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

Well, this current topic has been all find and dandy (also to add, Sora never did gain his body back. Not until KH2. He was literally just a walking heart with a corporeal form but no "body" as that was Roxas) but let's end THAT train and get back to Lingering Sentiment joining the battle.

Thanks for cooperating, guys!
 

blksabbath74

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

I think that Lingering Will, a suit of Keyblade Armor and Keyblade animated by the residual will of its master, is too cool of a concept not to use in the future, and I think it would be a huge mistake not to give it some role in KHIII...
 

kupo1121

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

Well they did kind of use the concept of a Lingering will with the Mentor of Light and Vanitas' Lingering Sentiment, at least I think they did, so I agree that it's a cool concept that should be re-visited. Not to mention if Terra's armor isn't at least found in KG, I don't know how they're going to explain his sudden disappearance given he was last shown to be there in BbS (and KH2FM, which even if non-canon, he was there in BbS).
 

Zettaflare

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

Well they did kind of use the concept of a Lingering will with the Mentor of Light and Vanitas' Lingering Sentiment, at least I think they did, so I agree that it's a cool concept that should be re-visited. Not to mention if Terra's armor isn't at least found in KG, I don't know how they're going to explain his sudden disappearance given he was last shown to be there in BbS (and KH2FM, which even if non-canon, he was there in BbS).

I can't see the keyblade armour leaving the KG myself either. I don't think Sora or the others will meet him before the final battle (unless Sora has a reason to visit the KG before the clash).
 

Sephiroth0812

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

It's not like there is an underlying metaphysics that the writers and designers are confined by...they can do whatever they want.

Except that there are underlying metaphysics that have been more and more fleshed out as the series went on, by in-game statements,journals/reports and Nomura interviews.

If this would not be the case, we would not have any basic concepts to base most of our theories on.
Like Spockanort said, the high accurracy of some theories here comes because those are based on already established rulesets we know so far, even if some of those still have some ambigious or mysterious parts that aren't fully understood yet.

To say "anything is fair game" and just shooting blindly into the blue has the high danger of being just wishful thinking rather than a true theory because it cannot be grounded on anything the series' universe has shown us so far.

For example, linking Eraqus with the Lingering Will is not only something made up out of thin air, it also openly contradicts what the Lingering Will itself has already been established to be: Just a pile of clunky metal animated by some leftover thoughts by Terra.

Well from what I understand, it isn't anything that can grow a heart, but any body, and a body would consist of all the memories, experiences, etc. I doubt that lamp that sat in Sora's room had a heart...that would be just awkward if every grain of sand in KH had a heart so Sora is killing sand as he walks on it <__< The armor is a thing, just like a lamp, but it is controlled by Terra's will. Terra's will isn't a body, so terra's will cannot have a heart (as far as has been stated thus far).

Seems like you haven't paid enough attention to Xemnas, Ansem the Wise and Nomura as they all pretty much spill out that anything can grow/create a heart, even a tree, a rock or "petals on the wind" as Ansem the Wise put it. If growing hearts was just possible for bodies (as when you define "body" being a biomass of blood, muscles and flesh), beings like Tron, Data-Sora or Pinocchio could not have a heart because the former two are made out of "data" and the latter out of wood. Yet they are implied/confirmed to have one anyways.

The main condition for a heart to grow and be nutured however is:
Ansem the Wise said:
The heart has always been quick to grow. Each exposure to light, to the natural world, to other people, shapes this most malleable part inside of us.
Joshua said:
By ourselves, we're no one. It's when other people look at us and see someone--that's the moment we each start to exist. All they needed was for someone to see them, connect with them. And the two of you were a big part of making it happen.
Mickey said:
I'm not sure, Sora. All I can say is that something in you has changed. The Keyblade takes its power from the wielder's strength of heart. But an old friend of mine once said, "A heart is so much more than any system." I gave you the Keyblade as data, and never expected it to match the real Keyblade's power. But during your journey, you made a connection...with us. You've risen above the system, Sora, and gained power unlike anybody else's. And THAT's what brought your Keyblade back.

The connecting with the world and other people, interactions, forming memories and an own sense of self, that's what ultimately results in a growing heart.
To take up your "lamp" example, it may certainly be possible for it to have a heart, especially if there would be someone who truly loved and tended to that lamp (however ridiculous that may sound), although since a lamp normally doesn't have sentience, it's heart probably won't grow fast nor very far.
Keep in mind however that Pinocchio also once was just a wooden puppet, not much different to a wooden lamp except in physical form.
So for the Lingering Will it isn't so much that it is impossible for it to grow a heart, but extremely unlikely because it has close to no interactions with anyone over the course of it's ten year existence. Even in the final battle in BBS, the only one speaking is Terra-Xehanort and I doubt that counts as "connecting" so much with others.

Well they did kind of use the concept of a Lingering will with the Mentor of Light and Vanitas' Lingering Sentiment, at least I think they did, so I agree that it's a cool concept that should be re-visited. Not to mention if Terra's armor isn't at least found in KG, I don't know how they're going to explain his sudden disappearance given he was last shown to be there in BbS (and KH2FM, which even if non-canon, he was there in BbS).

They may be created on the same concept, but do not forget that the Lingering Will of Terra is in fact a canon entity in the series, while Vanitas' Remnant, Armor of the Master and No Heart (the latter two being confirmed by Nomura as data simulations) are not.
 

Gram

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

If the LW did appear in the final battle I could only see it happening in either A) the battle with seeker terra to free him of MX's control or b) in battle with the main Xehanort himself.

Though I think another good question should be asked in that, what will happen to the LW if it appears and after Terra is saved?
Will it simply give out and become lumps of discarded metal again?
 

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

If the LW did appear in the final battle I could only see it happening in either A) the battle with seeker terra to free him of MX's control or b) in battle with the main Xehanort himself.

Though I think another good question should be asked in that, what will happen to the LW if it appears and after Terra is saved?
Will it simply give out and become lumps of discarded metal again?

Couldn't he just wear it?
 

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

Couldn't he just wear it?

1.How would he get in it?2. It pretty much has a mind of its own.3.It recently fought Xehanort in its mind so I'm pretty sure it'd battle anyone depending.
 

Nayru's Love

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

1.How would he get in it?2.
He could just pull off some Iron Man shit.

It pretty much has a mind of its own.3.It recently fought Xehanort in its mind so I'm pretty sure it'd battle anyone depending.

If the small history of armor within the series has taught us anything, it's that armor is meant to protect oneself, particularly from darkness. For LW to battle Terra would conflict with its supposed purpose, even if that's almost exactly what it did; you could say that LW was trying to protect Terra from MX's darkness, or maybe even Aqua and Ven from Terra-Xehanort.
 

rawpower

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

I definitely think that LW will make an appearance at least, but I have doubts about him engaging Xehanort(s) in the final battle. I have a feeling it's Terra who will be partaking in the final battle. And if Terra is there to fight then I think LW will cease to exist. I think LW will have a hand in saving Terra's heart though. Unless rescuing Terra doesn't come until the very end of the game I don't think LW has a chance at being in the final fight.
 

G-SANtos

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Re: Lingering Will to join in the final battle?

I think he'll actually leave the Keyblade Graveyard for some reason and show up at many points in the story. Even before the first trailer appeared and the main plot was revealed, I was imagining how they would deal with the multiple characters and all the world traveling, and I imagined the Lingering Will appearing all the time during Sora's travels.

The idea of Terra wearing the Lingering Will is interesting. I wonder if they could dual weild together if the Lingering Will develops its own heart.

However, I would just like to point out that all LW-related cutscenes in KH2FM, even the battle itself, have not been confirmed as canonical, which means they may or may not have happened depending on how Nomura wills it. Because of this reason, I wouldn't be too confident to treat it as an important basis to my theories or arguments.
It's canon until Nomura says it isn't. That's how things work, unless he has explicitly stated the opposite.

They may be created on the same concept, but do not forget that the Lingering Will of Terra is in fact a canon entity in the series, while Vanitas' Remnant, Armor of the Master and No Heart (the latter two being confirmed by Nomura as data simulations) are not.
Source for Vanitas's Remnant not being canon?
 
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