Let's talk about Kairi in a different perspective?

[cakito123]

First of all, Spoilers!
- - -

Shall we talk about Kairi in a different perspective? Everything I've heard about her has been about how disappointing she was, how we all expected more from her and how she should have mattered more than she did.

But what I want to discuss is this:

Why do you think Kairi died at the end of KH3, even though every time she appeared in the game was to give us hope that she would participate more this time around?

I say this because, within the narrative of the game (and also in past ads), it was clear to me that Nomura wanted to surprise us:
During the game, Kairi talks about being helpful, about fighting alongside Sora, about being present at important moments, and about being STRONG. And then, at the end of the game she dies in the most pathetic way she could. Her death is cold, quick and painful.

And to think that this expectation breach was the result of mere bad writing seems, to me, too innocent for a series that has showed us more and more the will to remain relevant and with longevity.

My bet is that Kairi will be a much more important character in this new coming saga.
And I think that's much more positive than the scenario we were imagining before the game's release.

Like... it is no surprise to anyone that during the whole series, Kairi was not helpful and did not appear much, although its importance was mentioned all the time.

Instead of getting everything sorted out quickly, which would be turning her character into something else in KH3, Nomura (probably) decided to start a new saga / new storyline about her death and resurrection.

Rather than repairing the mistake that was this character in a single game, I think the next games will begin to give more screen time to Kairi gradually, delivering more and more a deuteragonist role to her. That aspect, yes, I think it was positive: it would be weird to give Kairi so much importance and screen time suddenly, and I think the decision to kill her was the important boost her character needed to start getting around more in the main storyline, specially after Sora gave in his own life to make her live again.

Well, that's how I see her character now after KH3 came out and I played it. I think I understand what Nomura is trying to do with her.

Do you agree with me? Do you think Kairi will stay out of the story like always, or will she become a more prominent character in the future?

 

[Zach2]

I agree. And I hope she gets a bigger role in the future

 

[MATGSY]

I've wondered lately if Kairi is still a PoH at the end of KH3. Her role in being the final component of the X-Blade is comparable to the other 6 being used to create Rikunort's keyblade. This might be when she "passed on her power" like they did.

Maybe Nomura felt Kairi needed to lose that PoH status first before she could truly be a proper fighter. It's stupid & there had have been far better ways to go about it, but at least it's an explanation.

 

[Zettaflare]

I just dont get Xehanort's reasons for striking her down. He said he wanted to "motivate" Sora into making the final key, yet Sora(or any other Guardian of Light) would have done it anyway in order to stop him.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

I've wondered lately if Kairi is still a PoH at the end of KH3. Her role in being the final component of the X-Blade is comparable to the other 6 being used to create Rikunort's keyblade. This might be when she "passed on her power" like they did.

Maybe Nomura felt Kairi needed to lose that PoH status first before she could truly be a proper fighter. It's stupid & there had have been far better ways to go about it, but at least it's an explanation.

I was wondering about that too. After KH3, where Kairi quite literally died twice from being "struck by powerful darkness" left and right, would the "pure light" even be safe within someone like Kairi? Cause I'm failing to see at this point why the power would remain in her and not the other previous PoH. Furthermore, all it really seems to do is put the person who carries it in more danger of being attacked by the darkness, and has little anything that benefits the PoH themselves. It doesn't make them less susceptible to suffering and emotional turmoil, and certainly doesn't save them from being threatened by the darkness. It's just a burden. And if that's truly the case, then we have to ask what dictates one as being a worthy bearer for the power in the first place. Because if this unique affinity for light that they have keeps getting targeted to this extent, one would wonder why it doesn't just go to someone who's ACTUALLY more capable of protecting it, instead of people who have shown to be relatively defenseless or easy to manipulate. Or both.

In response to the OP though, if Nomura wanted to build Kairi up more as a character in future because it would be too sudden of a change in KH3, did he really need to fridge her the way he did first? Like Zetta points out, he literally called her "motivation" before striking her down with little resistance. At least make her go out on a bit of a stronger note so fans wouldn't have AS much of a negative impression of her going forward. In fact, many (myself included honestly), don't care about her as a character much anymore, let alone if she'll get better treatment in the future, because why would we after this crap has been going on for 12 years? I genuinely hope Nomura didn't honestly think he did Kairi a lot of good will in this game, because outside of one or two relatively short scenes amongst the many stiff and poorly executed one's this game has, I just don't see it.

 

[Veevee]

I don't really believe that Kairi will have an important role in KH4. We see Sora and Riku on the ground, so obviously these two will be important for the plot, Ven gets visited by Chirithy, Kairi ... sits on a tree. I don't know why one would write this way; letting your character be nothing more than a plot device and an awkward one on top doesn't really engage you to expect more of her. I mean, not even the in-game characters cared that she died, Riku cared more about Sora getting angry than about her and her death was quickly forgotten. If Nomura wanted to repair the mistake she was, he shouldn't have added to the mistake. In KH2, she got a keyblade, in 0.2 she got a training announcement - if he wanted to have a bigger role in KH4, leave it at that. She's training offscreen and is being badass in KH4 or whatever, but don't show her "training", make her a motivation device and die after that buildup to announce then: "Haha! She was badass all along! She has the personality of a dead log, even though a friendly one, but she's super useful now!"

 

[DarkosOverlord]

I think this is all very nice, but ultimately wishful thinking. I stick to my Occam's Razor and think that Nomura simply doesn't like Kairi, or likes her but doesn't know how to handle her, or even worse he thinks he is doing her justice by doing this, which are common traits in series like these. What Kairi goes through is what Sakura, Orihime, MCU Pepper Potts and various iterations of Mary Jane and Lois Lane went through.

It wouldn't have been weird to have Kairi being competent in KH III because it was something fans wanted for a good long while, and because it was foreshadowed for years since DDD literally ends on "Kairi will get a Keyblade and fight the XIII Xehanorts!"
Then here comes Square with the advertisement, the release of Kairi's combat renders and trailers made specifically to point out that Kairi will join the fight (I will never get over this, btw), so there was plenty of time to root the idea of Kairi doing more.
The only other thing naysayers cling onto dear life is that "she wasn't experienced enough", which is sadly even reported in the journal.
First of all, debating feats in Kingdom Hearts is silly given what Sora and amnesiac Roxas can do almost from the get go.
Second, she was training in a place where she could get endless experience. If KH III was more meta like in the past, Kairi and Lea would've had a character menu screen where they'd both be level 99 and THAT would've been a good surprise to the player imo. Everyone was hoping/fearing Kairi was just barely good enough, and it turns out she's a beast.

Instead, this idea of Kairi being relevant was rooted so much into some of us that when KH III failed to deliver what it had essentially promised, it was just bad. A huge disappointment. Like, something I've noticed not anyone gets is that regardless of what comes after, KH III was a saga finale, a big thing. Performing badly in it is going to be a permanent stain on my curriculum of experiences with said character. Even if Kairi will do something amazing next time around it's not going to erase that her role in KH III was very crappy. Not everything can be excused as a way to set up something else.
And as Veevee said, I'm pretty sure it was just the same bad writing of her and not a setup.
Kairi's just stuck in the "Damsel in Distress" corner which is where they throw her back when they're done with her for the next time.
I'll be the first one to be glad if it turns out I'm wrong, but... nah.

 

[allenleonardo]

I really have a hard time seeing her being that important in the future saga. Honestly if Nomura wanted to go that way why not include her in the secret ending? Or why make her fail that hard?

You dont need to completely change a character to make her more active in the plot. And you dont need one game to do that. He had many games between KH2 and KH3 to make her more of her own character and not a plot device but in the end she isnt even personally in most of the games and when she is there she is still just a plot device.

I would find it very bad to have her suddenly change in the next KH after all these games. Because I would question why she was not that way in the first place? I mean this is the Kairi that got her Keyblade in Kh2 and yet still stayed either behind or was away training. And she was training with Axel in a zone where time seemingly did not matter much. How would they suddenly explain her being better when she was just that bad after all the training?

If he wants her to play a major role in the other games he could have (and imo should have) used her in KH3 more. Show us her training, let her block Terrranorts attack even if it knocks her out (instead of standing around like a damsel), show us her PoH instead of telling us that she somehow used it again just passively. Let her struggle against Xemnas. All of these little things would have already shown character growths without her needing to somehow defeat strong enemies. This way I could believe that she is somehow now able to travel on her own and do stuff.

Yet Nomura even after leaving her with the PoH power, a keyblade and that training (and her words) still chose to use her mainly as a plot device to motivate Sora and use her passively again with her PoH, exactly how she was in KH1 and 2. (turning Sora back without knowing how and sending that message that somehow reached the RoD) So for me it kinda hints more that this might be the most we see of her. Maybe it was Nomuras way of including her in the finale of the saga so that he can afterwards bench her. And honestly right now I hope he does that. Because after that many games I just dont care about that girl anymore and at the same time dislike her even a bit so I dont want her much in any new game.

 

[Face My Fears]

I have this weird feeling that she will be important. There seems to be such Nomura-esque clues scattered throughout KH3, it feels like he's building up to something. The intro video of KH3 had Sora/Kairi's pieces together and then Xehanort HAD to immediately intervene. They were (oddly) kept apart throughout most of the game. When they were finally together, their bond was able to save Sora from dying. Then Xehanort kills her. Sora then makes a strangely worded statement before he goes to save her about how ever since their journey began, they were kept apart. I get the feeling that if they are together, there is some power that the bad guys do not want at the heroes' disposal.

 

[Audo]

It was clearly done to set up the next phase of the story in which Sora is quasi-dead and what not. I'm not happy with it but... I guess I'm reserving my end judgement until we see what comes next? To me I feel like this could become a solid development thing for Kairi, could give her real depth and explore her more. Her wanting to fight, to not get in the way, to protect Sora, only to get taken out and cause Sora to die, like that has to have an effect on her. If this pushes her to strengthen her resolve, to get even better and stronger and to want to save Sora (and hopefully succeed in some fashion), like I think it could be a good and necessary development. But it's also likely that it won't happen either so it's really hard to say. But for now I'm still kind of in a "wait and see" approach before I arrive conclusively at how I feel about the development. It's clearly a transition point between the old and new sagas and if what comes after is a solid arc and focus for Kairi, I might think, in the grand scheme of the series, it might be a good thing. But I'll definitely admit that the series thus far doesn't exactly give a lot of confidence in it yet.

This was another thing I was surprised no one brought up to Nomura yet in interviews. That both Lea and Kairi falter in the final battle. I really expected that to be brought up (esp. with Lea's Keyblade thing?)

I'm kind of hoping that when we see the next shot of Kairi on the tree we find out that Sora left her the Oathkeeper charm and she like grips it confidently and with new resolve or something. I'd like that. (And then in the next game she wields oathkeeper and not her ugly blade lmao)

 

[cakito123]

I think this is all very nice, but ultimately wishful thinking. I stick to my Occam's Razor and think that Nomura simply doesn't like Kairi, or likes her but doesn't know how to handle her, or even worse he thinks he is doing her justice by doing this, which are common traits in series like these. What Kairi goes through is what Sakura, Orihime, MCU Pepper Potts and various iterations of Mary Jane and Lois Lane went through.

It wouldn't have been weird to have Kairi being competent in KH III because it was something fans wanted for a good long while, and because it was foreshadowed for years since DDD literally ends on "Kairi will get a Keyblade and fight the XIII Xehanorts!"
Then here comes Square with the advertisement, the release of Kairi's combat renders and trailers made specifically to point out that Kairi will join the fight (I will never get over this, btw), so there was plenty of time to root the idea of Kairi doing more.
The only other thing naysayers cling onto dear life is that "she wasn't experienced enough", which is sadly even reported in the journal.
First of all, debating feats in Kingdom Hearts is silly given what Sora and amnesiac Roxas can do almost from the get go.
Second, she was training in a place where she could get endless experience. If KH III was more meta like in the past, Kairi and Lea would've had a character menu screen where they'd both be level 99 and THAT would've been a good surprise to the player imo. Everyone was hoping/fearing Kairi was just barely good enough, and it turns out she's a beast.

1) It is wishful thinking, but not only that. What happens is that Nomura has written several other games of the same series, and I think we all understand how this man's head works and writes his stories, right? For him, the announced importance of Kairi in would be just foreshadowing for her "shocking" and sad death, just as he wrote all the other games of the franchise: there will always be something tragic in the games that give segment to the next chapter - and yes, I I believe that Kairi is exactly this at the moment.

2) The fact that many people want something does not mean that it should be done. In terms of writing and consistency, it would be weird to give such a positive surprise to a character that until now has only been used to motivate the protagonist character and disappointed us again with its uselessness. Also, why in the last chapter of this saga would Kairi start becoming more important? Wouldn't make much more sense to start a new saga and develop this character throughout the next one?

I really have a hard time seeing her being that important in the future saga. Honestly if Nomura wanted to go that way why not include her in the secret ending? Or why make her fail that hard?

Exactly. Why, tho? I think it was because he is seeing some future in this event (Kairi getting killed and Sora dying later to save her) just like in KH1, when he used the event of Sora turning into a Heartless to create a lot of other plotlines involving Roxas and his friends, and his story.

It isn't hard to imagine Naminé having some kind of great importance in the future titles for example, just because she is connected to Kairi. Also, Sora didn't say 'Thank You' to Naminé. Why do you think that is? I think it was because Naminé/Kairi's story are connected . And if Kairi and Sora doesn't get a 100% happy ending, Naminé also wouldn't get her Thank you from Sora.

I would find it very bad to have her suddenly change in the next KH after all these games. Because I would question why she was not that way in the first place? I mean this is the Kairi that got her Keyblade in Kh2 and yet still stayed either behind or was away training. And she was training with Axel in a zone where time seemingly did not matter much. How would they suddenly explain her being better when she was just that bad after all the training?

The only way Kairi would get to change would be MAKING NEW STORIES AROUND HER AND SORA. It wouldn't be sudden. Actually, it would be much sudden if Kairi got to be important now in KH3.

 

[Zettaflare]

If Sora had to die for the sake of the next arc there were other ways to reach that point that didn't come at the expense of Kairi. What if he was somehow cursed from either Young Xehanort, the old one, or even The Lich?

At the very least Kairi should have gone out defiantly with keyblade in hand.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

1) It is wishful thinking, but not only that. What happens is that Nomura has written several other games of the same series, and I think we all understand how this man's head works and writes his stories, right? For him, the announced importance of Kairi in would be just foreshadowing for her "shocking" and sad death, just as he wrote all the other games of the franchise: there will always be something tragic in the games that give segment to the next chapter - and yes, I I believe that Kairi is exactly this at the moment.

It's precisely because I feel like I have a grasp on Nomura's process that I don't think there's anything here beyond either his distaste for Kairi or his inability to write better roles for her.
I understand your point that whatever happened to Kairi might be the tie-in to the next saga and I agree, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be reflected onto and carried by Sora and Riku, as always. The fact that it's the two of them in the secret trailer is pretty telling.

My money's on Kairi still being at home or in some unclear training quest that we'll never see while they're having their Verum Rex adventure.

2) The fact that many people want something does not mean that it should be done. In terms of writing and consistency, it would be weird to give such a positive surprise to a character that until now has only been used to motivate the protagonist character and disappointed us again with its uselessness. Also, why in the last chapter of this saga would Kairi start becoming more important? Wouldn't make much more sense to start a new saga and develop this character throughout the next one?

About that things shouldn't be done because people want them, that's debatable. Fanservice and catering to the audience isn't always bad or cheap if done properly. If it doesn't make you stry too much from your artistic path, there's nothing wrong with building a better relationship with your fans by handing them some "treats" that aren't necessary but a welcome sight nonetheless.

In terms of writing and consistency, if Master Xehanort was able to wipe out TAV by himself seemingly effortlessly in cutscenes he shouldn't be panting and gasping when facing Terra alone, yet it happens. And if Sora can fall from literally the outer universe into Deep Jungle and crashing into Tarzan's house with only a small bump on the head, he should be nigh indestructible and shouldn't flinch in many circumstances.
Oh, and Aqua should've summoned a barrier instead of blocking Vanitas' fire with her face.

Kingdom Hearts has always played fast and loose with feats, making characters stronger or weaker/dumber than their perceived standard when the story needed them to be. Kairi being suddenly way better and a bit different than how she's been for so many years isn't all that more shocking then all the nonsense that happened in the series since game one.
Except this time it would've been for the better and she even had reasonable in-game explanations for her sudden change.

What makes sense was writing Kairi better since KH II, but alas what's done is done.
Now, writing her better is as you said, "correcting a mistake" and I agree. But you should just do that ASAP, not softly creeping through the door. Which is what me and others were hoping this KH III role would've been: "Our b guys, we realized Kairi's role up until now kinda sucked big time. Let's not talk about that anymore, here's badass Kairi in the final boss fight as a compensation". Because mistakes were made, and righting them should take priority.
Part of that is because, as I said, KH III isn't (and shouldn't even have been imo) a stepping stone for things to come, but a big event-- advertised as the biggest so far. And Kairi was awful as always. That's an hard fact, despite all the surely enough good intentions in trying and seeing the glass half full.
No sense in making Kairi fans suffer through another game, especially an important one, only because you want to take small steps.

And the other part... and here I assure the aggressive tone isn't directed towards you nor what you're suggesting, it's just how I feel in general... I didn't have to wait to see Sora and Riku and Roxas being done properly. I didn't have to wait to have Axel as one of the coolest characters of the series. Here it's debatable and subjective, but I didn't have to wait to see Vanitas and Master Xehanort being powerful characters in both presence and personality.
What I'm saying is that almost every major character has many moments their fans can be proud of, meanwhile for Kairi is always a big "If only", especially if you're not really fond of her just being the beacon for Sora every single time. Man, Larxene had such a big and powerful entrance, she steals the spotlight and even kicks Sora around.

Again, I understand where you're coming from and it's not my intention to rain on your parade, but I feel like Kairi will just keep being this awkward character no one in the dev team really want to sit through an afternoon to salvage, until either Nomura writes her off completely like with a retired actor for a sitcom or when someone else steps into the writing room.

 

[Nayru's Love]

Kairi's character development and death/rebirth are not mutually exclusive situations, so the latter does not excuse the former's absence. If anything, her death would have been much better executed, had the player had more exposure to her. We're supposed to care when she dies because Sora cares; when we do not, it creates a dissonance between us and Sora, the protagonist whom we experience the story through.

1) It is wishful thinking, but not only that. What happens is that Nomura has written several other games of the same series, and I think we all understand how this man's head works and writes his stories, right? For him, the announced importance of Kairi in would be just foreshadowing for her "shocking" and sad death, just as he wrote all the other games of the franchise: there will always be something tragic in the games that give segment to the next chapter - and yes, I I believe that Kairi is exactly this at the moment.

Judging by his writing, setting up Kairi as nothing more than a plot device is actually what I expect of him. Nomura does really well in introducing grand ideas, but he does a noticeably poorer job in character and story development.

2) The fact that many people want something does not mean that it should be done. In terms of writing and consistency, it would be weird to give such a positive surprise to a character that until now has only been used to motivate the protagonist character and disappointed us again with its uselessness. Also, why in the last chapter of this saga would Kairi start becoming more important? Wouldn't make much more sense to start a new saga and develop this character throughout the next one?

I think you may have two opposite arguments. Either Kairi's small role/death were subversions of expectations or they weren't; they can't be both.

Exactly. Why, tho? I think it was because he is seeing some future in this event (Kairi getting killed and Sora dying later to save her) just like in KH1, when he used the event of Sora turning into a Heartless to create a lot of other plotlines involving Roxas and his friends, and his story.

The parallel to KH1 is a pretty good one, and one I'd also be curious to see where Nomura would go with.

The only way Kairi would get to change would be MAKING NEW STORIES AROUND HER AND SORA. It wouldn't be sudden. Actually, it would be much sudden if Kairi got to be important now in KH3.

Without KH2's and 3D's set up? Absolutely. However, the set up was there.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

If Sora had to die for the sake of the next arc there were other ways to reach that point that didn't come at the expense of Kairi. What if he was somehow cursed from either Young Xehanort, the old one, or even The Lich?

Or even just the from rescuing everyone's hearts. The whole reason Sora's dead now was because the strain he was putting on himself from improper use of the power of waking. Just have Sora hiding he's not doing well and boom, Sora fades at the end because he could no longer keep himself together. No reason to kill Kairi so he'd do it a second time.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

If the New Seven Hearts have a relevancy to the plot besides being a Plan B and KINGDOM HEARTS celebration of modern day Disney princesses, then I can see Kairi having as much importance as she did way back in the original KH. Other than that, if the Japanese fandom is pushy and critical enough of Kairi's poor handling in this game, then I'd wager something might happen.

But, we have to remember that DDD's secret ending was basically dedicated to her, so there was an obvious interest in building her up.

So I honestly don't know what to think. I think Nomura decided to focus on everyone else with the cards he was dealt in terms of development.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

My thing is how long are we going to just sit around and wait for them to “fix” Kairi? Are you telling me giving her a Keyblade in KH2 wasn’t the start of that? Or KH3D by making her a Guardian of Light? Or her training scenes hinting at her getting stronger?

I’m sorry but they had 7 games after KH1 to “fix” Kairi. If they weren’t going to approach her character with some sort of depth after 7 (.2) games in over a decade, I’m not sure why we as an audience should expect more.

I am in the camp of waiting it out and seeing what happens with the hope that they do give her the development she needs like a few others, but I’m not going to be surprised if they don’t bother and she serves the same role as she always has.

There is a point where you have to stop giving Nomura the benefit of the doubt when he keeps making the same mistake over.

 

[Audo]

I think there's also meant to be a parallel in that Kairi saved Sora from death and then supposedly guided him to save the others, and so now he is saving her from that fate. Like their Paopu promise is them both promising to save the other, so it's, in a way, paying that off. Sora sacrificing himself to save her is also of course set up and foreshadowed heavily in the Disney worlds and the lessons he learns there. I think his sacrifice is also meant to be more meaningful now that he knows what the abuse of the power of waking can mean. If he simply started fading or whatever after saving everyone and only then learns that abusing it is bad, after already done it, then it kind of takes away the intention of the action. It also wouldn't be something that could specifically drive Kairi's development forward (at the risk of arguing for a potential arc that may not arise anyway).

My thing is how long are we going to just sit around and wait for them to “fix” Kairi? Are you telling me giving her a Keyblade in KH2 wasn’t the start of that? Or KH3D by making her a Guardian of Light? Or her training scenes hinting at her getting stronger?

I’m sorry but they had 7 games after KH1 to “fix” Kairi. If they weren’t going to approach her character with some sort of depth after 7 (.2) games in over a decade, I’m not sure why we as an audience should expect more.

I am in the camp of waiting it out and seeing what happens with the hope that they do give her the development she needs like a few others, but I’m not going to be surprised if they don’t bother and she serves the same role as she always has.

There is a point where you have to stop giving Nomura the benefit of the doubt when he keeps making the same mistake over.

I definitely don't blame anyone for not having confidence that it will get better or anything.

But I also think about how it took like 4.5-ish games to save the characters after the concept was introduced. Sometimes they take the long path for certain developments. It's possible that is the case with Kairi. With Riku's development getting a bow on it more or less, and Sora famously not being one to have huge changes, it's possible that they have decided that Kairi will be the one whose development is the focus for the new saga for all we know. Idk.

At this point I'm not quite ready to resign myself to her never getting development and there being no hope. The series continues, the possibilities are there. For a lot of us, I think we saw KH3 as an endpoint of sorts for Kairi's arc into being more relevant and a fighter, but perhaps they think of it as the beginning. Idk. I wish more interviewers asked him about Kairi and her role so we could get a better understanding of how he thinks about it.

If staff ever gets the chance to ask him questions again maybe you should grill him on it ;p

 

[Elysium]

I'm not going to write a long response (there's been so many Kairi-related threads), but I don't expect Kairi's role to extend beyond ending and/or opening cutscenes now that this saga's over. He had a chance to utilize her here--even built it up--then did nothing with it. That speaks to his disinterest in the character.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

I'm not going to write a long response (there's been so many Kairi-related threads), but I don't expect Kairi's role to extend beyond ending and/or opening cutscenes now that this saga's over. He had a chance to utilize her here--even built it up--then did nothing with it. That speaks to his disinterest in the character.

Or anything that isn't Versus*cough*Verum Rex or KHUx.