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KINGDOM HEARTS Union X Finale



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Violet Pluto

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@LoneFox Computer could have been on Auto or it could just be a large oversight.

EDIT: Just looked back at the scene. There was a timeskip from the scene where they go outside and when they get into the pods. Ephemera or Skuld could have programmed the coordinates off screen.

EDIT 2 ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: Dream Eaters protect their Keyblade Wielder's Hearts from falling to Darkness in the Sleeping Worlds. Riku was a Dream Eater in DDD and protected Sora's Heart. But how was he changed into a Dream Eater? Also Xehanort chose the second most difficult place to corrupt Sora for some odd reason.
 
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Cumguardian69

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EDIT 2 ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: Dream Eaters protect their Keyblade Wielder's Hearts from falling to Darkness in the Sleeping Worlds. Riku was a Dream Eater in DDD and protected Sora's Heart. But how was he changed into a Dream Eater? Also Xehanort chose the second most difficult place to corrupt Sora for some odd reason.
actually the RoS is easy to corrupt someone in if you can track their coordinates. Sleep is almost intertwined with Darkness.
 

SuperNova

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Dandelions/Keykids being Dream Eaters makes me wonder if Sora being able to summon them into the real world because of his powers of connection is the reason why Ephemer contacted him from beyond the grave. :unsure:
 
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Ok,

So my mind has been absolutely swirling since seeing the translated finale a day or so ago. I put a ton of thoughts on paper, and have no one in my actual life to share these with, so I wanted to put this out there to those that might actually care.

The Brain-Luxu KHUX Finale Conundrum

Please let me know your thoughts about my ideas (and just how crazy I might actually be) and for those who aren't interested in the full experience, I put a TLDR down at the bottom, but I will copy that to the bottom of this post.

TLDR Version

"To wrap this up, I believe the Luxu takes on Brain as his apprentice, teaches Brain everything he can about the time travel process, in return Brain must hide the box, most likely by actually sending it forwards in time for Luxu to find after the keyblade war.

Brain leaves Luxu to carry on his tasks, and time travels himself to Scala ad Caelum to try and save the dandelions with his new found tools, knowledge and status as a Master keyblade wielder. "
 

HamHamJ

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Something I'm wondering about is the status of the non-main character keyblade wielders and how it fits into KH3 and the future. It seems like keeping this straight might be important:

Group A would be those that didn't get chosen for the Dandelions. These are dead?
Group B would be the Dandelions. These fell asleep?
Group C would be the union leaders and extras that got out on the arcs.

(On the above, my understanding is that at least some of the people we see floating around and turning into Dreameaters are actual NPCs from the game. Are they all Dandelions? Or does anyone who died prior to the war or presumably in it show up in that scene?)

These are related to the worlds in play as well.

Real Daybreak Town (and the whole world it was in) got destroyed.
Data Daybreak Town became a sleeping world?
After being destroyed, real Daybreak Town and associated world was rebuilt... somehow... into the current world?

Actually on that last point, my previous understanding is that the children from Kairi's grandmother's story who rebuilt the world were the Dandelions, but now that the Dandelions have fallen into sleep is it just talking about Ephemer and I guess whatever survivors he somehow found to build Scala???

Finally, the main reference to Union X in KH3 was obviously the light from the past... but was that Group A or Group B? I would assume A because the Keyblade Graveyard is presumably composed of those who died in the war, and thus were by definition not Dandelions. But why is Ephemer there, he didn't die in the keyblade war? Or is it somehow the Dandelions showing up from the realm of sleep?

Presumably Data Daybreak Town is still a sleeping world along with all the Dandelions, which will probably be important. Unless Ephemer or Brain actually already succeeded in waking them.
 

Clue.Less

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I don't understand how Ephemer is able to build an entire civilization on his own. Unless he manages to wake the data backup of the worlds and the Dandelions from sleep mode to launch the restoration process? This way at least there are people with him to build Scala.
 

KudoTsurugi

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I’m going to be honest, I hate the idea of the Player character being a reincarnated Xehanort. It was completely unnecessary. We already have Dark Road as a Xehanort story, we didn’t need him shoehorned in at the end of Union X too. If they absolutely had to go the reincarnation route, I’d rather they came back as someone completely new rather than someone already established.

I don’t expect them to make a character creation choice in the next main game to justify having Player show up in a 3D game, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they made a stand-in character if they decided to bring up their role or something in the future.

Everything else was good though. The idea of Dream Eaters being guardians/vessels for sleeping hearts is an interesting idea, but makes sense in a way. It’ll be interesting to see where things go next, but I hope for the next game they go the multi-console route.
 
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LoneFox

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Please let me know your thoughts about my ideas (and just how crazy I might actually be)
I see you have put a lot of effort into this, which does deserve respect. There are some good ideas in it. However, you have also missed a few important things.

I should have noticed myself the possibility of Brain escaping though the same portal as Luxu. I don't think it is what actually happened, but it definitely deserves to be investigated. One problem I see immediately is that Brain seems to have no motive for time travel if he doesn't need to do it to save his own life. Wouldn't he go to check what is left of Daybreak Town (in his current time, using a portal), meet Ephemer and see what he has done to it, and then implement whatever his plan is from there. Also, when he arrived, he clearly didn't know where and when he is, which means his destination was not under his own control.

Are there any other means for time travel than the pods? Ignoring Merlin's door, which was considered an anomaly in-universe, I believe the only other known instances of anyone going into the future in the whole series are Young Xehanort and a few other org. XIII members summoned there by older version of Xehanort. We know that Xehanort had access to a similar machine, and was familiar with it, so it's likely that he also used this method. Only difference I see is the use of replica bodies instead of remembering + a medium.

Speaking of a medium, Brain's hat seems to be the medium used to give him his body back. My understanding is that for the others, the Eye was used (which BTW could be another explanation for that stupid amnesia), but here it wouldn't be available if No Name was given to Brain himself. So this, while not a true proof, is a clue that Brain indeed did get No Name. Now, the secret report 13 has this:
Spanning the ages in body after body, life after life, my task has been to keep vigil over the Eye as it passes from hand to hand.
which debunks the idea that Brain went so far into the future that he could be Eraqus's grandfather, assuming the Eye went with him. And if it didn't, then why the hat is needed?

Your assumption that there are only seven pods is wrong, simply because there are more than that already in the story. Five were launched into the future, two used by Ephemer and Skuld, one broken in the fight between Lauriam and Maleficent, and one left in the data world. Isn't it safe to assume that since #8 and #9 exists, #10-14 also do, to fill both versions of the machine? And Luxu would know where they are and how to bring them in.

I agree with your explanation for the non-existence of the box, and while I have myself suggested time travel as one possibility for its disappearance (I even tried to turn it into a meme by calling it "the Date Escape Theory"), the idea that it might have been in the fictional world is both new and good. However, I believe it disappeared much later. I think Luxu sent it away to protect it either from whatever crisis caused Scala to be abandoned, or from Xehanort when he took over Radiant Garden. The main reason for this is, the original version of Xigbar's character file has something like "the box that has been protected by Keyblade wielders ever since long, long ago" in it. The line has been left out of the official translation, but it is in various unofficial ones made before the official one was released.

For secret report 11, there are some questions:
  1. Who is the virus?
  2. How does Ven represent the virus?
  3. What is "the same trick"?
These are not directly related to the subject, but it seems that some theories can answer them much better than others. I'd like to see your answers before posting my own (and of course others are welcome to contribute as well).

Let's take this as a challenge, can we crack the code?
 
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I see you have put a lot of effort into this, which does deserve respect. There are some good ideas in it. However, you have also missed a few important things.
Thanks. My mind was running crazy all day yesterday, and I didn't have the ability to put thoughts on paper until much later, and I'm sure I missed ideas I had collected over the day as my mind jumped to conclusions.


I should have noticed myself the possibility of Brain escaping though the same portal as Luxu. I don't think it is what actually happened, but it definitely deserves to be investigated. One problem I see immediately is that Brain seems to have no motive for time travel if he doesn't need to do it to save his own life. Wouldn't he go to check what is left of Daybreak Town (in his current time, using a portal), meet Ephemer and see what he has done to it, and then implement whatever his plan is from there. Also, when he arrived, he clearly didn't know where and when he is, which means his destination was not under his own control.

My thoughts here are this... Luxu obviously told Brain SOMETHING to convince him to become his apprentice. Maybe it was something as simple as, "If you die here, you will never be able to save them" or perhaps it was deeper "We have both read at least some of the BoP and we both know things are not salvagable in this time. You need to travel to the future when technology is more advanced, and then you can save them all. I can show you the way..." Given people find the fact Sigurd is using some communicator as a weird 'leap forward' in technology, this point might not be so far fetched...

It's true Brain didn't know exactly when or where he was. But "May my heart be my guiding key" might be Nomura's way of helping the characters understand that they may not always know (in their mind) where they need to go and when, but their heart does know. So let your heart lead. Perhaps Brains heart can control the destination and make sure he appears exactly when and where he lands, to give him the best chance of accomplishing his goal? Even if he himself doesn't exactly know when/where that should be?

Are there any other means for time travel than the pods? Ignoring Merlin's door, which was considered an anomaly in-universe, I believe the only other known instances of anyone going into the future in the whole series are Young Xehanort and a few other org. XIII members summoned there by older version of Xehanort. We know that Xehanort had access to a similar machine, and was familiar with it, so it's likely that he also used this method. Only difference I see is the use of replica bodies instead of remembering + a medium.

Speaking of a medium, Brain's hat seems to be the medium used to give him his body back. My understanding is that for the others, the Eye was used (which BTW could be another explanation for that stupid amnesia), but here it wouldn't be available if No Name was given to Brain himself. So this, while not a true proof, is a clue that Brain indeed did get No Name. Now, the secret report 13 has this:

My money is on their being another method. One that the true Masters know of, and likely this is one of the things the MoM taught Young Xehanort when they met. We know Time Travel has become too central to this series, and whether we want it to or not, the rules and realities of it are going to evolve. My guess is Brain experienced a previously unseen method of Time Travel. Heck, maybe even he discovered it himself considering his penchant for leaping to correct conclusions from very limited information, and seemingly always being right.

which debunks the idea that Brain went so far into the future that he could be Eraqus's grandfather, assuming the Eye went with him. And if it didn't, then why the hat is needed?

I assume the hat is still the medium for reformation. regardless of how far forward Brain actually jumped. I suppose an alternate explanation is possible here... What if Brain is actually in FUTURE Scala. Not Future compared to Brain, but past for Xehanort. Like FUTURE Scala, as in future of KH Scala, and he actually jumped THAT far in the future. People posited that the Scala that Brain and BabyNort appear in looks very different than the Scala of Dark Road. I know Damo, amongst others has speculated there is a "Ragnarok" type event that occurs in Scala, due to all the Norse connections. But his assumptions are predicated on Brain getting there first, then BabyNort is taken away from there, 'Ragnarok' happens and then TeenNort returns for Dark Road. What if BabyNort is taken from the future Scala, and taken to Destiny Islands to protect him while he grows, and then he is taken to the past Scala, before 'Ragnarok' actually happens? In that instance, Brain exists in 'future post-apocalypse Scala' and obviously can't be related to Eraqus. It also means my idea of him taking No-Name to Scala and hanging it up to observe the most critical city in the world for all time (or until Xehanort takes it down) as completely fried.

Stepping out of that 'crazy' (is there such a thing in KH theorizing?) line of thinking, if Brain carries the eye with him directly, it wouldn't be there at his destination to help him reform, so to me that would explain the need for the hat to be his medium for return.

Your assumption that there are only seven pods is wrong, simply because there are more than that already in the story. Five were launched into the future, two used by Ephemer and Skuld, one broken in the fight between Lauriam and Maleficent, and one left in the data world. Isn't it safe to assume that since #8 and #9 exists, #10-14 also do, to fill both versions of the machine? And Luxu would know where they are and how to bring them in.

I think that the data pods seem to disappear once used to reach the real world, otherwise where are they? 7 data pods, Maleficent took 1, 1 destroyed, and 4 used by the UX leaders to escape, 1 remains. When we see Ven, Elrena and Laurium in the future, they aren't in pods. Did they get out and leave them behind? Or did the pods simply get sacrificed as a means of travel?

In terms of real pods, Maleficent took 1, 'true dandelion' took one, Ven, Elrena and Laurium took 1. That's 5 pods. Which leaves Brain with the two 'real pods' he sends to the data world. Brain knowing there are 3 left behind, sends 2 pods back (because apparently a data to real world transfer doesn't affect their existence?) because those 2 pods, plus the one there, gets all 3 of them out in theory. We know the Darkness' arrived and ruined those plans. My flaw in the 'Pods disappear' thought of course is that the 2 Brain sends back, both transport Skuld/Ephemer from data town to real world, and then to the future, or in Brain's case, as a vessel for surviving the destruction of Day Break Town. Perhaps a 'real' pod moving from data world to real world isn't destroyed as it doesn't actually travel through time? Maybe this is a plot hole that will never be resolved and we just aren't supposed to think that hard about?

I agree with your explanation for the non-existence of the box, and while I have myself suggested time travel as one possibility for its disappearance (I even tried to turn it into a meme by calling it "the Date Escape Theory"), the idea that it might have been in the fictional world is both new and good. However, I believe it disappeared much later. I think Luxu sent it away to protect it either from whatever crisis caused Scala to be abandoned, or from Xehanort when he took over Radiant Garden. The main reason for this is, the original version of Xigbar's character file has something like "the box that has been protected by Keyblade wielders ever since long, long ago" in it. The line has been left out of the official translation, but it is in various unofficial ones made before the official one was released.

I like the idea of Luxu needing to hide the box and asking Brain to do it for him, to further distance Luxu's ability to find it, in case he ever does fall to Darkness. Which seems to be a distinct possibility he needs to be concerned about considering he is harboring one of the strongest darknesses, and eventually needs to become MX's vessel for darkness and a nobody. He would know better than anyone that Darkness simply cannot be allowed to get hands upon the box. So if he is 'taken' and has any real knowledge of the Box's whereabouts that could be bad.

As to that line that was removed, first off I love it. Second, given that it says 'keyblade wielders....' perhaps it wasn't just one protector? If it was one person standing vigil forever, that would be Luxu, and Xigbar of course would know that. But multiple wielders could be an implication that Luxu's apprentice (assuming it is Brain) would also have protected the box as well.

For secret report 11, there are some questions:
  1. Who is the virus?
  2. How does Ven represent the virus?
  3. What is "the same trick"?

Well the self-described Virus is Brain...

Secret Report 11 - KH3

Observations, Excerpt 1—

I have seen it through; the Keyblade War unfolded exactly as written on the Lost Page. Now, the Keyblade the Master entrusted to me must be bequeathed to another. Five Union leaders have been chosen from the surviving Dandelions. I will pass the Keyblade to one of them, and then continue watching the future unfold.

Yet it seems that someone has pulled the old switcheroo. One of the Five is an imposter, someone the Master did not choose. They represent a virus in the program he so carefully wrote.

The virus has begun a strange undertaking: a reckless plot to allow the Five to escape into another worldline. Surely such a thing can't be possible? We're talking about the same trick that allowed the Dandelions to transfer to other worldlines after the Keyblade War. But these children are no Masters. They haven't the means...unless, of course, a certain lady of magic summoned here from the future knows more than I do.

The whole Union leader thing was supposed to be by the books. Are these new events just another phase in the Master's grand plan?

Unknown

One of the FIVE is an imposter. Which Five? the original foretellers or the new Union Leaders? Why not both? We always assumed it was the UX leaders. But why can't Luxu be implying the imposter is part of the original 5? MoM calls him a traitor at the end. Perhaps this is because he knows he will ultimately give one of his tasks to someone else, to Brain? That task being protect the box?

Secret Report 12​

Observations, Excerpt 2—Even on a worldline with no Keyblade War, peace is but a dream. In the absence of us and our Master, a "darkness" arrived—one that shall surely lead the World to yet another demise.Amid the chaos, I bequeathed my Keyblade to one of the Union leaders, just as the Master instructed. I watched as the Five were sent to another worldline—at no small cost—ensuring the line of Keyblade wielders will live on. And now, Keybladeless, I must depart this land to fulfill my final task. This means casting my own body aside and sojourning my heart in vessel after vessel—as many as it takes.But I will continue gazing upon each passing era, one unto the next. In time, be it years or decades, centuries or millennia, I will meet the Five once more.Somewhere in this cyclical history of bequeathings, a chosen one will appear and reenact the Keyblade War. When this scapegoat arrives and takes my Keyblade in hand, that will be the time to take the stage and finish my role.The Lost Masters will awaken.Unknown

I say this, because in report 12, Luxu calls them the Five and that the Lost Masters will Awaken. Isn't it possible that he considers the foretellers the Five?

Even re-reading this it seems a stretch for sure. But I do think there is some double talk about which 5 Luxu is referring to in these reports. I just might not have the right angle on it just yet.

I think Ven is simply an imposter, but Brain is the virus that upends the whole thing, by devising the plan to get them out, and by becoming Luxu's apprentice and not following through with the initial idea of passing the blade down person to person for millennia. Simply because he took the blade and time traveled and jumped the line quite a bit....

As for the trick, I don't know that we know what that is yet. The MoM did something to send everyone to Data Daybreak town. I suppose it could have been Ark's en masse. But I'd consider that fairly unlikely. Then again, who knows with Nomura if we will ever get that context....

These are not directly related to the subject, but it seems that some theories can answer them much better than others. I'd like to see your answers before posting my own (and of course others are welcome to contribute as well).

Let's take this as a challenge, can we crack the code?
Agreed. Let's crack this thing.
 

EternalDreamVG

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Something I'm rather curious about, in the event that any of the time travelling people from Union X were to perish, should they not get booted back to their own time to "live out their lives" like what happens to most of the Real Org XIII?

Let's say Brain dies a natural death after living in Scala - should his heart then not return back to the moment he was sent to the future by, presumably, Luxu?

Or is this two distinctly different methods of time travel, with its own rules?
 

Clue.Less

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Looking at the numeral system that appears in one of the screenshots here... is it just me or does number 8 look a lot like the reference symbol the MoM mentions when talking about the world of neither light nor darkness?


By the way this numeral system solves the Ultima keyblade design issue for future titles.
 

Violet Pluto

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Something I'm rather curious about, in the event that any of the time travelling people from Union X were to perish, should they not get booted back to their own time to "live out their lives" like what happens to most of the Real Org XIII?

Let's say Brain dies a natural death after living in Scala - should his heart then not return back to the moment he was sent to the future by, presumably, Luxu?

Or is this two distinctly different methods of time travel, with its own rules?
Thing is with how the time travel system was introduced in DDD, you can't change events fated to happen/that have already happened and thus the Norts had to be sent back when defeated to be taken out in their original games. Changing the past would be a Nature Taboo. Abusing the Power of Waking too much to change the past is why Sora disappeared. We can thus make the connection that since Xehanort's plan was contingent on existing and using the fact that he had his parts be defeated before, he wouldn't want to change the past making this rule one he would follow.

The Dandeleaders all have no more role to play in the past, so they don't rubberband back to the past upon defeat/death.
I don't think so, however it is basically the same as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos
It's a Japanese Asterisk called the komejirushi or rice marker. He pretty much says "a land of __" Or maybe he literally says Asterisk but anyway it's a normal symbol in Japanese ※ easily available in Microsoft IME by typing in "kome" and going down the list until finding it.
 

Chie

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I know what the reference marker is, I'm the one who first brought it up. I'm just saying that the 8 in Scala numerals is basically the symbol of chaos, and so doesn't look that much like the reference mark to me.
 

EternalDreamVG

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It's a Japanese Asterisk called the komejirushi or rice marker. He pretty much says "a land of __" Or maybe he literally says Asterisk but anyway it's a normal symbol in Japanese ※ easily available in Microsoft IME by typing in "kome" and going down the list until finding it.
Is it ever used in this particular way however? Back in KH2 when the photo thief thing happened, the Japanese script simply used ___ too, just like the English one. And isn't 〇 (maru) the typical symbol used to censor out a word in text, in the way that english would with ****?

As far as I'm aware, ※ is only really interchangeable with * when used as...well, a reference marker, as its name suggests. Like when adding footnotes.
 

Violet Pluto

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Is it ever used in this particular way however? Back in KH2 when the photo thief thing happened, the Japanese script simply used ___ too, just like the English one. And isn't 〇 (maru) the typical symbol used to censor out a word in text, in the way that english would with ****?

As far as I'm aware, ※ is only really interchangeable with * when used as...well, a reference marker, as its name suggests. Like when adding footnotes.
Well you are right about the circle being a common sensor but as shown in the video* in KH2 to blank the words they just used "ーーーー” instead of asterisks or circles. While this might mean something it could very well just be a difference in purpose, for while in KH2 they couldn't say the word in this he probably says it and we weren't allowed that info.

*
 

LoneFox

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Thanks. My mind was running crazy all day yesterday, and I didn't have the ability to put thoughts on paper until much later, and I'm sure I missed ideas I had collected over the day as my mind jumped to conclusions.
I know exactly what you mean. I was in similar state of mind for about 3 days or so...

Right now I'm too tired to speculate on anything, but I guess I can at least give my own answers to the questions. Since I believe that Luxu and Brain are the same person, obviously he is also the virus. He is inserting himself into the program (or plan) just like a virus would do. The trick is re-living part of one's life again, that is what the Dandelions did and also what Brain is doing as Luxu. Ven's role is a much harder question, and I don't have a simple answer to it. It can be just the fact that Brain accepted Ven as part of the group even after learning that he was not on the list, but there seems to be at least one way for it to mean more than that.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about the consequences of Ava's attempt to change the future. I had several ideas about it, but they all were wrong, because I was assuming that either Lauriam or Strelitzia was supposed to get the Book. But now we know it was Ephemer instead, and interestingly there is a chain of connections from his disappearance to Strelitzia's death. Him disappearing caused the Player to wait for him on the fountain square for a whole day, and that is where Strelitzia first noticed the Player and went "❤️!!", which then lead to her looking for the Player and going into that building. Now, we have assumed that Ephemer was sent away by Ava to stop him from snooping around, mostly because Ava seemed to know where he was, but this was never confirmed. So, it is in theory possible that Luxu caused his disappearance and therefore the switcheroo.

Another thing, I have a faint memory that soon after the machine/ark was revealed, someone spotted a spare pod on the background of some old scene, but I have no idea where it was. Does anyone else remember this?
 
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Alexxio M.

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And I hope they execute it in a not-cheap way. I'm already seeing it going kinda like:
Lauriam/Elrena appear before heroes (Namine included) -> heroes don't trust (afterall Sora isnt with them, the only witness of their last words), Namine is scared -> some villain appears -> they help to defeat villain x -> everything is okay again, lets be friends :D

I hope its gonna be more deep than this.
This is perfect
let’s have Axel roxas or xion be the one to open the door and do the correction of names thing.
also slight nitpick Mickey was in the battle with larxene and Marluxia so he would also be there to witness their last words (If you beat Luxord first that is)

Here’s an explanation of what the reference mark may mean from hmk
hope it can help the discussion
 

AleMustDie

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Same. Them being from Quadratum or the missing classmates is far more interesting.

Though I suspect Demyx might be that person in the white Cloak MoM shipped off
[/QUOTE]

It's different, Demyx is the MoM

BTW, after watching this Finale agaon and again and reading again the Report in KHIII, looks like Nomura hinted a lot at that time.

It's almost certain , Luxu passed the KB to Brain, but we dont know if he just used his body leaving him in Scala, or if Brain is concious.

I really hope Square Enix makes a Movie like II.8 of this, and DR too.

Im pretty sure Nomura wants explain the facts of UX and DR at the large fanbase, before KHIV. Or better, before the next Title
 
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