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DarkosOverlord

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I see, well, it also depends on how the fight overall goes as even if one participant may want to spare the other in the end, depending on what blows are dealt throughout it the opponent may be done for simply by the aftereffects of the fight itself.
Demyx started to fade immediately after the fight ended, it is not like he was just weakened after the fight and then Sora, Donald and Goofy delivered a coup de grace to an enemy who could have moved on alive afterwards.
In that case I would probably also upset about the whole situation.
For such a case, the fight against Luxord I would point to as a more ambigious example as there Luxord states "You play the game quite well.", essentially conceding defeat and Sora "answers" this by rushing up to Luxord and delivering a deadly finishing blow.
Without going too much into detail about this incident, there Sora was also already fired up because Luxord captured his friends inside cards and remembering the events from Port Royal he knew Luxord as an enemy already.

Luxord is also not the type of character one would describe as a stereotypical villain who's overly malicious and yet that too ddn't stop Sora from ending him personally and up close.

Luxord wasn't you evil archetype, but it definitely wasn't a "wimp" like Demyx (personality wise).
I'm fine with any kind of aggression during or at the end of a battle, I feel that the heat of battle does justify that plenty.
When it's how you open the fight, that's when I start furrowing brows.

Ahh, now I think we're getting to the crux of the whole discussion here, as we both have apparently quite a different overall image of Sora.
Ansem the Wise does indeed say that and that Sora has an uncorrupted heart is indeed true, but that doesn't mean that "willing to see the good before the bad" is an universal truth that Sora always adheres to.
Sora is human and therefore also has flaws and is capable of misjudgement and not always seeing the good before the bad despite the willingness possibly being there due to circumstances and his own emotional state.
Sora would be a true "messiah" or "Gary Stu"-figure if what Ansem says in in DDD would apply universally and all across the board regardless of which the circumstances of the current setting are.


This is the whole background on which the issue of "Just seeing Demyx as an enemy standing in the way" is built. And strictly spoken it is the truth as again, "willing to see the good before the bad" =/= "always seeing the good before the bad".
Sora was simply not in the mental state to act like that during these events.

After putting together all this I even realize that I may have found a reason for Sora's mocking attitude which I formerly declared as "a waste of time" and contrary to his desire to hurry up in order to help Leon and the others.
It may be a bit ugly, but unquestionably human: Sora had built up anger, frustration and anxiety, so he sought an outlet to vent it somehow and Demyx was just the unlucky first major member of the opposing faction to run into him.

That can be.
That's kinda what I said at the end of my comment, the moment you declare a hero is a paragon of justice and charity his every action, past and future, will be analyzed to see if they meet the parameters.

"Any enemy which wasn't declared the overlord of darkness got to live/Sora was willing to spare", really? Let's look at some more examples, shall we?
In CoM, he goes to cleave Marluxia in half the moment they set foot in Castle Oblivion, in the entrance hall, way before the memory shenanigans set in and before even learning who that guy in the black coat even is. Marluxia teleports out of the way, sure, but Sora's intention was obvious by going directly for a finishing blow.
The Roxas battle, be it metaphysical inside the heart and all, Sora ends by viciously slashing Roxas across the chest after he's surprised that Sora can simply summon his Keyblade back to his hand. He doesn't hesitate a moment.
Luxord I did already mention.

You see that how the Demyx battle ended wasn't exactly exceptional compared to all these.

Well, now.
Roxas said he defeated a Riku once. As you said, and I concur, whenever his friends are involved, Sora is mister nice guy no more. Roxas was also the one going all on the offense everytime, verbally and physically.
Regarding Marluxia, Sora did already meet a black coat guy and things weren't peachy. But that's as far as I can go to justify that scene, they obviously wanted to create a generic anime moment of attacking a powerful villain, but it still counts.

You many probably file that under the same case as Donald not recognizing Yen Sid's tower as BBS clearly shows that Maleficent broke Pete out while it was still BBS-era time.

Well, one more example we do have from DDD, the events of Country of Musketeers, and after those I'd say Pete was lucky that Minnie even allowed him still around.
High treason is/was normally a warrant for the death penalty in the real world.

Nomura did justify that they forgot the Tower because it changes shape: it's a bad explanation, but it's there.
Pete did do that... I always have trouble filling the Musketeers events in the storyline.

It is both actually, the character and the actions as the state of the character and the context of the actions matter as well.

Yep, definitely.
"good" and "evil" are, coming down to it, just concepts after all and while we may even take into consideration largely the same factors to gauge it as well as violence and mercy, we clearly do place different weight and priority on these factors, leading to a different overall evaluation of certain situations.
But in all honesty, that's what makes such discussions even more interesting. ^__^

I feel the same, but I always worry about confrontation anyway.
 

KudoTsurugi

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Can I ask what a direct translation of that 'give it a rest' line from the Japanese version is like? For comparison's sake? Also was there a different scenario writer between games for KH1-2 or was it all the same writer?
 

DarkosOverlord

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Xehanort opened the Keyhole (at least we think it's one, he just calls it a "door") to Radiant Garden like it was nothing.
The Keyhole to Destiny Islands appeared to Riku.

Yet we know nothing about the fact that the Keyholes decide to reveal themselves to certain people (it's also never fully stated the Keyblade can open them, although they definitely fall in the "every lock" group), not even Keyblade wielders.
All of this also to say that I wished Keyholes still had relevance in the saga (aside from their sleeping counterparts).
 

Muke

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Sora's practically non-existent (inactive) idle animation in KH2. Like, his model is just there. No movement whatsoever.
Even in KH1 and BBS, all characters have an idle animation where you can see them breathing and move slightly, whereas Sora in KH2 barely moves his arms.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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Nomura did justify that they forgot the Tower because it changes shape: it's a bad explanation, but it's there.
When did he say that? But, oh my if he did, that explanation is terrible. Extra terrible since in BBS and KH2, Mysterious Tower looks exactly the same. The only difference is that it has more rooms in 2.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Luxord wasn't you evil archetype, but it definitely wasn't a "wimp" like Demyx (personality wise).
I'm fine with any kind of aggression during or at the end of a battle, I feel that the heat of battle does justify that plenty.
When it's how you open the fight, that's when I start furrowing brows.
Demyx also wasn't really a "wimp" personality wise as the "Silence Traitor!" bit showed that this was all an act Demyx put up.
Not to mention that being called a traitor when you never even once supported that group can also tick someone off and it is an undeniable fact that Sora never "betrayed" the Organisation in any way because he always was their enemy starting in CoM or even KH 1 if one wants to count the FM Xemnas battle.
So in this vein, I do put both Luxord and Demyx in the same category of "moderate villain" or "member of a villainous group without being strictly a total villain themselves".

That can be.
That's kinda what I said at the end of my comment, the moment you declare a hero is a paragon of justice and charity his every action, past and future, will be analyzed to see if they meet the parameters.
It's pretty likely actually since it does adhere to a more human nature-esque approach. One can be rightfully declared a hero or paragon of justice even when he/she isn't like that 100% of the time because in the end what counts is the vast majority of one's actions paired with the intentions behind them.
It's even the same somewhat with Xehanort as while he indeed may not be the "ultimate evil", the vast majority of his actions are harmful and disregarding of other people's wellbeing while Sora's and other "heroes" actions are like this only once in a blue moon and then most often not deliberately and/or out of malice or selfish desires.


Well, now.
Roxas said he defeated a Riku once. As you said, and I concur, whenever his friends are involved, Sora is mister nice guy no more. Roxas was also the one going all on the offense everytime, verbally and physically.
Regarding Marluxia, Sora did already meet a black coat guy and things weren't peachy. But that's as far as I can go to justify that scene, they obviously wanted to create a generic anime moment of attacking a powerful villain, but it still counts.
During the Radiant Garden-events there in KH 2 Sora's friends were also involved in two regards, as I pointed out in my "essay"-long post beforehand. One thing was the danger for Leon and co presented by the massive outnumbering Heartless army, from which Sora was prevented going for assistance due to Demyx' insistence o holding him up and the other was the just beforehand learned facts that there was no progress in finding Riku or Kairi.


Nomura did justify that they forgot the Tower because it changes shape: it's a bad explanation, but it's there.
Pete did do that... I always have trouble filling the Musketeers events in the storyline.

I feel the same, but I always worry about confrontation anyway.

To be frank this "justification" comes over as more tongue-in-cheek than anything (I re-read the interview and posted the snippet talking about it further down) and it also addresses only the interior of the tower which is different in KH 2 and BBS.
Even if one can't fit it in exactly it does show off what Pete is actually capable of and Minnie may very well remember this.
Being a rather ruthless criminal with a certain level of competence isn't actually that strange as in most european Disney comics Pete is portrayed like exactly that.
Not a threat on the level of say, Xehanort or Maleficent, but certainly more serious than what the KH series allowed him to be so far outside of the Musketeer storyline.

While things can easily go out of hand when text passages are misinterpreted due to how they are worded, ow a confrontations/debate goes though can still be controlled by paying attention to wording and with passages that may seem aggressive asking for clarification.

I personally had it more than once in my by now rather long forum time already that a statement was taken as aggressive by someone when I originally wrote it with no intention of it being that way.

Sora's practically non-existent (inactive) idle animation in KH2. Like, his model is just there. No movement whatsoever.
Even in KH1 and BBS, all characters have an idle animation where you can see them breathing and move slightly, whereas Sora in KH2 barely moves his arms.

Uh, didn't he move his head in several directions while in idle stance?

When did he say that? But, oh my if he did, that explanation is terrible. Extra terrible since in BBS and KH2, Mysterious Tower looks exactly the same. The only difference is that it has more rooms in 2.

BBS Ultimania, but I actually doubt that Nomura intended it as a serious explanation considering the way it is written:
BBS Ultimania said:
-- In this title, the dark influence of the Heartless isn't breaking down the walls between worlds, so in this period before Gummi Ships, why are Donald and Goofy able to travel to the Mysterious Tower?
Nomura: You can think of it as being thanks to Yen Sid, and also because the Mysterious Tower is a loophole world in the first place, so it comes under slightly different rules than the ones that connect the other worlds. By the way, when Donald and Goofy visit the Mysterious Tower in "KHII", they say "Isn't this tower strange!" even though they know it from "KH BbS". This is because the floors are constructed differently to the previous time they visited, which is strange (laughs).

Note how he goes with a "by the way" starting point as if this is a trivia piece of information and there's a (laughs) at the end.
He also only speaks about the tower's interior as well, not its overall shape, so if the english translation of the scene in KH 2 doesn't diverge too much from the japanese original this is simply an oversight during the development of BBS.
If Aqua and Ventus meeting with Donald and Goofy is really that important they could have done this literally anywhere else than Yen Sid's Tower like i.e. in Disney Town and this discrepancy would never have come up.
 

DarkosOverlord

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To be fair, Nomura laughs every two sentences according to the interviews. What a cheerful man. Or maybe him laughing is the signal to switch onto the next question.
I also agree he came up with that on pretty much the spot, but I think it's still gonna be the closest thing to an explanation about this oversight we'll get.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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BBS Ultimania, but I actually doubt that Nomura intended it as a serious explanation considering the way it is written:

Note how he goes with a "by the way" starting point as if this is a trivia piece of information and there's a (laughs) at the end.
He also only speaks about the tower's interior as well, not its overall shape, so if the english translation of the scene in KH 2 doesn't diverge too much from the japanese original this is simply an oversight during the development of BBS.
Thanks for finding the quote! It does sound like it wasn't a serious answer since he claims they don't recognize the outside of the tower because the interior changed. But now I'm laughing because he gave a joke answer to a question the interviewer didn't even ask.

If Aqua and Ventus meeting with Donald and Goofy is really that important they could have done this literally anywhere else than Yen Sid's Tower like i.e. in Disney Town and this discrepancy would never have come up.
Agreed.
 

Grono

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I hate how the games moved from "you need a warp gummi to be able to get from place to place without going through a world to get there" to "you still have to do a level to be able to enter the world, but don't worry, we cleaned up gummi combat, and you don't even have to do monotonous bullshit with the warp gummi all over again!" to "uhhhhh, just go to the icon on the screen and enter the world. Sorry we couldn't do more to program the keyblade glider." God damn it, Square, I actually liked the gummi ship missions from II. Did ya have to get rid of that great idea entirely when BbS came around? You even programmed attacks and movements for the keyblade gliders, as evidenced in Disney Town and Deep Space, so why couldn't you give us more of that? I'm sure not everyone would have appreciated it, but it would have been cool to see, ya know? Nothing's exciting about just clicking on a world to go to.
 

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So the Dalmatians are from London, which was destroyed. But London is safe & sound in the Neverland world. Clayton & Jane also mention London, are they from the same London or is there like 3 different Londons in the KH universe?

Also thanks to DDD, we got 2 Frances as well, 1 of which is populated by talking animals.
 

VoidGear.

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So the Dalmatians are from London, which was destroyed. But London is safe & sound in the Neverland world. Clayton & Jane also mention London, are they from the same London or is there like 3 different Londons in the KH universe?

Also thanks to DDD, we got 2 Frances as well, 1 of which is populated by talking animals.

I have never given this a thought until now and now it bothers me. Thank you. :'(
 

DarkosOverlord

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So the Dalmatians are from London, which was destroyed. But London is safe & sound in the Neverland world. Clayton & Jane also mention London, are they from the same London or is there like 3 different Londons in the KH universe?

Also thanks to DDD, we got 2 Frances as well, 1 of which is populated by talking animals.

To extend this further, China is apparently its own planet too.
So are Greece and Hawaii.

Then again. Alice is also supposed to be from "Earth", right? But apparently her falling into Wonderland is considered a travel between worlds.
 

Audo

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I hate how the games moved from "you need a warp gummi to be able to get from place to place without going through a world to get there" to "you still have to do a level to be able to enter the world, but don't worry, we cleaned up gummi combat, and you don't even have to do monotonous bullshit with the warp gummi all over again!" to "uhhhhh, just go to the icon on the screen and enter the world. Sorry we couldn't do more to program the keyblade glider." God damn it, Square, I actually liked the gummi ship missions from II. Did ya have to get rid of that great idea entirely when BbS came around? You even programmed attacks and movements for the keyblade gliders, as evidenced in Disney Town and Deep Space, so why couldn't you give us more of that? I'm sure not everyone would have appreciated it, but it would have been cool to see, ya know? Nothing's exciting about just clicking on a world to go to.
games have budgets. gummi ship stuff is like a serious undertaking. it is very likely to be back in KHIII tho.
 

DarkosOverlord

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At this point, I kinda wished Keyblade gliders were never a thing, or that they couldn't travel between worlds and that TAV just opened portals directly to the world they wanted to go to (what Terra does with Ven and the Islands, basically)

They're cool, but KH III is most likely going to disappoint one faction the moment it chooses either them or the Gummiship.
Implementing them in other ways, like Terra's combos in KH II and leaving the Gummi as the only vessel for space travel (and Hook's ship) would've been optimal imo.
 

Grono

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games have budgets. gummi ship stuff is like a serious undertaking. it is very likely to be back in KHIII tho.

Eh, I don't find that a worthwhile answer. Not because I devalue your opinion, don't get me wrong; but I'll explain myself. You have a space background, from the metamorphosis fight as Ventus, and keyblade glider physics and attacks from Deep Space and Rumble Racing. Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy rumble racing quite a bit; I think it's a fun little side mini game that I like to play from time to time. Again, this is a nitpick, so don't take this answer too seriously (it's not like I thought this playing the game), but why not just throw us an enemy rush on a space background entering the world or something like that? Maybe even have a weird white background in the lanes between? I don't know, just something I thought up in 3 seconds haha :)

At this point, I kinda wished Keyblade gliders were never a thing, or that they couldn't travel between worlds and that TAV just opened portals directly to the world they wanted to go to (what Terra does with Ven and the Islands, basically)

Yeah; can't keyblade wielders do that in Unchained X? Why do they need to do the glider things? Is it just because they don't know where they're going to head off to? That's the best explanation I can come up with; it does make sense.

They're cool, but KH III is most likely going to disappoint one faction the moment it chooses either them or the Gummiship.
Implementing them in other ways, like Terra's combos in KH II and leaving the Gummi as the only vessel for space travel (and Hook's ship) would've been optimal imo.

I think it's pretty much guaranteed that the Gummi Ship is going to be used in Kingdom Hearts III; watch the ending of 0.2 for proof. I can't remember where I found this information, but I sent Audo an interview a while back when they were doing their Everything we Know about Kingdom Hearts III So Far series where Nomura said that Keyblade Gliders would be used for combat in Kingdom Hearts III as a keyblade transformation. If this is true, I'm all for it.
 

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Late to this but cool thread, I dig it.

I don't like the 3D character portraits used next to all the gauges in 0.2 and seemingly KH3. Bring back the illustrated portraits of the past.

Also all the aspect ratios and whatnot need to be correct so the game fits all TVs by default. 0.2 did not.
 

Grono

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Late to this but cool thread, I dig it.

I don't like the 3D character portraits used next to all the gauges in 0.2 and seemingly KH3. Bring back the illustrated portraits of the past.

Also all the aspect ratios and whatnot need to be correct so the game fits all TVs by default. 0.2 did not.

Thanks!

Don't know anything about aspect ratio, totally agree on the 3D Images though. Aqua's portrait looks nothing like her.
 

Zettaflare

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Why were Donald and Goofy at the tower in DDD? Mickey I get but why Donald and Goofy? If they stayed at the castle they could have helped Minnie when Maleficent invaded.
 

DarkosOverlord

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Yeah; can't keyblade wielders do that in Unchained X? Why do they need to do the glider things? Is it just because they don't know where they're going to head off to? That's the best explanation I can come up with; it does make sense.

Yeah, that too.

Why were Donald and Goofy at the tower in DDD? Mickey I get but why Donald and Goofy? If they stayed at the castle they could have helped Minnie when Maleficent invaded.

"If only there was something we could do in the meantime"

*screams of horror from one of Yen Sid's mirrors*
"It's been weeks since your adventure against the Organization and Pete and Maleficent have once again scattered Heartless everywhwere! Help us for the love of God help us!"

"If only there was something..."
 

Muke

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Late to this but cool thread, I dig it.

I don't like the 3D character portraits used next to all the gauges in 0.2 and seemingly KH3. Bring back the illustrated portraits of the past.

Also all the aspect ratios and whatnot need to be correct so the game fits all TVs by default. 0.2 did not.
I completely agree. I'm not a fan of the 3D portraits at all, and it kind of feels really jarring, especially because they don't even look good (kinda pixelated). Need my Nomura art <3
 
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