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Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks



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palizinhas

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OK, nitpick that relates to the Nobody discussion going on: "just give it a rest! You're Nobodies! You don't even exist. You're not sad about anything!!" Says Sora, not very long after Axel sacrifices himself to save him.
 

DarkosOverlord

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Darkos; didn't mean it that way. But there could be another reason. Could of he have been influenced by Roxas there? I don't know how Demyx treated Roxas; and I think it's been established that Roxas did influence Sora a little from the inside.

Possibly.
This opens up an interesting "Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde" what-if worthy of being explored in fanfictions.
Might give it a try myself later.

"I guess Kairi can always count on him."

"He took the three of us at the same time and whipped us all. And you know we're the greatest threat ever."
(Filthy RiKai shippers. How dare they.)

OK, nitpick that relates to the Nobody discussion going on: "just give it a rest! You're Nobodies! You don't even exist. You're not sad about anything!!" Says Sora, not very long after Axel sacrifices himself to save him.

Really tho. After Axel and all the other really emotional members (Larxene anyone?) Sora and the gang still thought they were all pretending?

"Hey did you see how Saix kept screaming his lungs out during the entire battle?"
"Yeah right? What a performance! Thank God he was faking it the whole time!"
 

VoidGear.

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And you know we're the greatest threat ever."

The sad part is that these fuckers really ARE incredibly hard to defeat on low level or even level 1. xD

I also have to say I kinda don't like how the protags kept this "you dont feel shit" up. Especially after Axel. Anyone else COULD be faking but why would he when he's already dying to save Sora?
 

FudgemintGuardian

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Haha. Anyway I think I can somewhat justify that.

1. He was told in the beginning that Nobodies don't really exist at all from Yen Sid.
2. Most Nobodies..HURT people. Um, I know Sora doesn't like anyone that hurts people. Especially his friends. (Maybe he thought Demyx'd go after his friends, next.)
3. Demyx called Sora a traitor. Um, I don't think anyone would take that very well.
4. Prolly the mess in Olympus got Sora's goat a bit as well. I mean, Demyx was a thief (Stole that coin) and all that. That proly did NOT help.

Add to the fact Demyx wouldn't get out of the way(so Sora could get to his friends who were in trouble), which was prolly the last straw.
1. Can any of us really consider that a legitimate reason? This was something that really bothered me in KHII (Yay, another nitpick!) Yes, Org. XIII had and were doing a lot of badguy things, but it always felt like Sora's reasons for hating them was more to do with them lacking hearts than anything they've actually done

2. Given Sora considered Demyx a total wimp, I doubt he thought Demyx could actually do anything to his friends (and if he did, then that just says what Sora thinks of his friends. XD) And Sora never says anything on the matter. He just taunts him. Which leads to..

3. Which was only after Sora and Donald kept goading him. And being called a traitor right out of blue is a rather pathetic reason for murdering the guy.

4. If Demyx had an actual hand in the destruction of Olympus Coliseum and tormenting Herc, then I could see good reason for Sora going after him. But all Demyx did was steal a magic coin with very limited use and ran the second he lost. And I guess he spilled water on Phil or something.

"I also dropped a piece of paper, thus polluting the Underworld!"
"YOU MONSTER"

[Dunno if this is support, irony, or just a joke, but figured I'd roll with it.]
Yes, yes, and yes~



Darkos; didn't mean it that way. But there could be another reason. Could of he have been influenced by Roxas there? I don't know how Demyx treated Roxas; and I think it's been established that Roxas did influence Sora a little from the inside.
Well, Demyx did dump a lot of his missions on Roxas in Days. XD
 
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catcake

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Nah the actual canon reason is that Sora, like basically everyone who has ever played the game, hates the water clones with passion and after Demyx summons them for the second time he's had it with that bs and decides to make sure water will never dance again. Can't blame him.
 

SoulXaldin

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In KH2, Riku seemingly gets a new set of clothes without any explanation. Like seriously, did he rob a store or something to get them? This is so confusing, how did he get them???!!!
 

ImVentus

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The whole "May my heart be my guiding key" phrase is really starting to rub me off. I swear if they repeat that cliched cheesy phrase in KH3 over and over again, I'm going to lose it. Maleficent's darkness quotes works cause it's kind of brings her own little charm that makes her so important to the whole light vs dark theme.

I am so tired of all the plot holes that have appeared in KHX like I really want you to answer what happened to Daybreak Town. How did all unions and leaders end up at Keyblade Graveyard? Did Ava die? I need answers. Nomura you're more than welcome to continue the story BUT FOR PLEASE SAKE EXPLAIN FULL EVENTS BEFORE JUMPING TO THE NEXT CHAPTER. You have a lot to explain in KH3 and it better be explained.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Not vanquishing him. As I said, KH showed us that it's possible to fight without ending the opponent.
But again, that is my personal nitpick. I actually did not expect Demyx to survive nor would I know how to write the story in that situation.
I see, well, it also depends on how the fight overall goes as even if one participant may want to spare the other in the end, depending on what blows are dealt throughout it the opponent may be done for simply by the aftereffects of the fight itself.
Demyx started to fade immediately after the fight ended, it is not like he was just weakened after the fight and then Sora, Donald and Goofy delivered a coup de grace to an enemy who could have moved on alive afterwards.
In that case I would probably also upset about the whole situation.
For such a case, the fight against Luxord I would point to as a more ambigious example as there Luxord states "You play the game quite well.", essentially conceding defeat and Sora "answers" this by rushing up to Luxord and delivering a deadly finishing blow.
Without going too much into detail about this incident, there Sora was also already fired up because Luxord captured his friends inside cards and remembering the events from Port Royal he knew Luxord as an enemy already.

Luxord is also not the type of character one would describe as a stereotypical villain who's overly malicious and yet that too ddn't stop Sora from ending him personally and up close.


I don't think the writers did anything wrong by making an obvious final fight against him ending with him getting vanquished, just noting this doesn't resonate with my image of Sora.
Well, I'd hate to quote this from Dream Drop Distance, as I didn't like it, but:
"Sora has a heart like that- uncorrupted, willing to see the good before the bad." sayeth Ansem.
Sora refused to see anything else but the fact that Demyx was a Nobody and his enemy, and ignored anything else about his non-aggressive personality.
His reactions against Xehanort is kind of a different matter: he knew who Xehanort was- evil in his mind.
But this Sora who is described as this child soul who will see good in you before anything else doesn't really match up his attitude towards possibly the least aggressive of his enemies.
I elaborate more about this a bit further below.

Ahh, now I think we're getting to the crux of the whole discussion here, as we both have apparently quite a different overall image of Sora.
Ansem the Wise does indeed say that and that Sora has an uncorrupted heart is indeed true, but that doesn't mean that "willing to see the good before the bad" is an universal truth that Sora always adheres to.
Sora is human and therefore also has flaws and is capable of misjudgement and not always seeing the good before the bad despite the willingness possibly being there due to circumstances and his own emotional state.
Sora would be a true "messiah" or "Gary Stu"-figure if what Ansem says in in DDD would apply universally and all across the board regardless of which the circumstances of the current setting are.

Like said, it was a war-like situation and Sora had many other things on his mind to consider and ponder about right then, primarily but not limited to "Leon and the others are fighting a battle massively outnumbered, I need to help them.".
Taking into consideration Demyx' personality and whatever was the least thing which could have crossed Sora's mind.
All this also happened also just after these parts:
Accessing Ansem's computer said:
Goofy: I think it wants to know what we wanna know.

Sora: Riku and Kairi!

(Sora presses a few more buttons and a red window appears on the screen with the words "Data Error.")

Sora: No way... Even Ansem's computer doesn't know...

...

(The red windows appears again)

Computer: The data is corrupt.

(Sora slams his fist on the keyboard)

Sora: Stupid computer!


(He continues to slam keys and the windows on the screen jump around wildly)

Goofy: Sora!

Xehanort's Portrait said:
Mickey: Well, the man in the picture is definitely the one who tried to take
over Kingdom Hearts---the one you fellas defeated.

(Sora, Donald, and Goofy have flashbacks of the final confrontation with him at
the End of the World)

Mickey: But, what you actually fought was his Heartless. Ya see, he wasn't
really Ansem. He just went around telling everybody that he was.

Sora: You mean...

Donald: Ohh...

Goofy: Hmm...

Sora, Donald, & Goofy: Whaaaat?

Sora: We went through all that trouble to defeat an impostor?Goofy: Well, let's see. Some feller named Ansem, who wasn't really Ansem,
became a Heartless. Does that mean a Nobody got created when that happened, too?

Mickey: Yup! And that Nobody is the leader of the Organization.

Sora, Donald, & Goofy: Whaaaat?...
Sora (glaring at the painting): You...! You started all of this! Because of
you, Riku and Kairi
... Oh! Your Majesty, do you know where Riku is?

Mickey (looking away from Sora): He's... I'm sorry. I can't help.

(Sora walks to Mickey's front)

Sora: Really, Your Majesty? Are you sure?

Mickey (turning away): I'm sorry, Sora.

Sora: What about Kairi? Organization XIII might've kidnapped her.

(Mickey whirls around)

Mickey: Oh, no!

(He looks at the painting)

Mickey: Sora, Donald, Goofy. I was plannin' to go get help from Ansem the Wise.
But---now I know I forgot the most important thing. Helping others should
always come before asking others for help. We're safe and sound---and free to
choose! So there's no reason we shouldn't choose to help our friends.

(Donald and Goofy nod)

Mickey: Let's look for Riku and Kairi together.

(A huge explosion knocks Mickey off his balance)

Sora: Outside!

It should be common knowledge by now that Sora goes all smile and sunshine around his friends to not drag them down and let negativity take over, but looking at all the above, on the inside Sora is pissed, frustrated and anxious because the problems keep piling up and they're not one step closer to success in their main mission.

To summarize, Sora had his hopes dashed that Ansem's computer could help him in his search for Riku and/or Kairi, he learned that the "Ansem" they defeated a year ago wasn't even Ansem, that the Nobody of this very fake Ansem leads the Organisation XIII, his current main enemies which just increased his disdain for the whole group and on top not even the King, which he knew spent some time alongside Riku, can give him any clue towards the status of his best friend.

That in itself is already a lot to ponder about and although Sora doesn't show it openly (apart from some angry outbursts like punching the computer) he is both worried and angry.

He recalls that Kairi was possibly kidnapped as well, and while Mickey doesn't know about this either he does come around and offers Sora to join Donald, Goofy and himself in order to look for Riku and Kairi.

Things seem to be looking up at least a little and wham, in comes the Heartless invasion of Radiant Garden led by Maleficent and the Organisation (Maleficent thinks she's in charge but the Org is pulling the strings), endangering his friends in this world and squashing again any prospect of progress towards the main mission because since Sora has this uncorrupted heart Ansem the Wise praises him for in DDD, he can't just abandon the people of Radiant Garden he formed a bond with to such an assault.

This is the whole background on which the issue of "Just seeing Demyx as an enemy standing in the way" is built. And strictly spoken it is the truth as again, "willing to see the good before the bad" =/= "always seeing the good before the bad".
Sora was simply not in the mental state to act like that during these events.

After putting together all this I even realize that I may have found a reason for Sora's mocking attitude which I formerly declared as "a waste of time" and contrary to his desire to hurry up in order to help Leon and the others.
It may be a bit ugly, but unquestionably human: Sora had built up anger, frustration and anxiety, so he sought an outlet to vent it somehow and Demyx was just the unlucky first major member of the opposing faction to run into him.


Well, not really. Should you manage to beat them, Sora will stop once Cloud and Leon are unable to keep fighting (even if he does collapse after dealing with Leon, he was talking like the fight was over. He saw Leon, a much more menacing guy, with a knee on the ground and decided not to continue.)
Sark was defeated but not erased on the spot. Riku was left able to walk away from every match (okay, I admit Riku is obviously an extreme case, still Sora doesn't just eradicate the evil as soon as he fights.)
Any enemy that wasn't the declared overlord of darkness or a paragon of evilness basically got to "live" and was done by other factors, really.
And in these two groups, Demyx's fate was put with the one that in my opinion didn't represent him is what I'm saying.

Aside from the fact that CoM Sora was definitely altered, given his reactions and backlash against Donald Goofy and the Jiminy too, Larxene (the character towards whom Sora was arguably the most violent) was as different from Demyx.
Larxene makes it so you can't help but hate her and is without a doubt a malevolent and evil woman who likes to see others suffer. And a great character in my mind. I seriously love Larxene, close to a fanboy level.
But I would never argue that Sora did bad or was out of character for him to try and vanquish her.
Riku is indeed a special case as he's Sora's closest friend since they were toddlers, so there is definitely some bias in Sora's decisions regarding him.

"Any enemy which wasn't declared the overlord of darkness got to live/Sora was willing to spare", really? Let's look at some more examples, shall we?
In CoM, he goes to cleave Marluxia in half the moment they set foot in Castle Oblivion, in the entrance hall, way before the memory shenanigans set in and before even learning who that guy in the black coat even is. Marluxia teleports out of the way, sure, but Sora's intention was obvious by going directly for a finishing blow.
The Roxas battle, be it metaphysical inside the heart and all, Sora ends by viciously slashing Roxas across the chest after he's surprised that Sora can simply summon his Keyblade back to his hand. He doesn't hesitate a moment.
Luxord I did already mention.

You see that how the Demyx battle ended wasn't exactly exceptional compared to all these.

Except that Donald and Goofy are surprised to see Pete out of the dimension in KH II, so that means they either forgot about him or kept thinking him being secluded there for all that time was "just".
I do wonder what else could've Pete done in the past. For some reason, I don't think it could take a 180 and be something really ruthless and different from his BbS mischief.
Minnie also did say "I tried to overlook many things that you did, but you've finally crossed the line!"
So, disregarding those votes WAS a pretty big deal even for him.

Even if he did, say, destroyed half of the town-- a void. Eleven years and counting.
You many probably file that under the same case as Donald not recognizing Yen Sid's tower as BBS clearly shows that Maleficent broke Pete out while it was still BBS-era time.

Well, one more example we do have from DDD, the events of Country of Musketeers, and after those I'd say Pete was lucky that Minnie even allowed him still around.
High treason is/was normally a warrant for the death penalty in the real world.

I do get where you're coming from (I also should mention, not because I'm feeling called out but for clarity, that I do not even like Demyx's character that much). Is definitely harder from a hero to act violent without making someone speak ill of him.
You've touched the real issue-- this is (again) less about the character and more about how we see his actions, probably.
It's also clear by now how us two have a seriously different way to gauge evil, good, and even violence and mercy, at this point.
Intriguing.

It is both actually, the character and the actions as the state of the character and the context of the actions matter as well.

Yep, definitely.
"good" and "evil" are, coming down to it, just concepts after all and while we may even take into consideration largely the same factors to gauge it as well as violence and mercy, we clearly do place different weight and priority on these factors, leading to a different overall evaluation of certain situations.
But in all honesty, that's what makes such discussions even more interesting. ^__^

Eh, he does the job of spreading heartless & getting new ones made well enough. Maleficent's probably operating on Beast Wars henchmen logic: they're either loyal but dumb or smart yet treacherous. Loyal & dumb at least gets the grunt work done.

This right here. Pete may not be smart enough to tie his own shoelaces but the basic tasks he gets done rather successfully. He can apparently also use Dark Corridors without any additional protection and work with Heartless without them turning on him, so his heart does seem to have quite some strength.

Darkos; didn't mean it that way. But there could be another reason. Could of he have been influenced by Roxas there? I don't know how Demyx treated Roxas; and I think it's been established that Roxas did influence Sora a little from the inside.

If I recall correctly by the time Roxas deserts the Organisation for good he doesn't make any difference anymore between the individual members and hates them all equally, especially when taking into account that he believes Axel also lied to him the whole time and he was nothing but a tool for them all the time.

So if there was some influence from him trickling down into Sora it would not be farfetched to assume that it strengthened Sora's disdain even further.

OK, nitpick that relates to the Nobody discussion going on: "just give it a rest! You're Nobodies! You don't even exist. You're not sad about anything!!" Says Sora, not very long after Axel sacrifices himself to save him.

Heh, well, that's KH 2 for you which continues to hammer down these "you don't feel/exist" mantras throughout the whole run.
Back in the 2000s this used to neatly divide the whole fandom into two groups as well between those who believed these mantras and those who did not.

I also have to say I kinda don't like how the protags kept this "you dont feel shit" up. Especially after Axel. Anyone else COULD be faking but why would he when he's already dying to save Sora?

Considering the fandom split and heated debates about this afterwards back in the days KH 2 was "new" I can't help but wonder if this all was intended like this.
The whole "are you sure you don't have a heart" thing during Axel's and Roxas' last meeting also plays the whole issue up yet again.

2. Given Sora considered Demyx a total wimp, I doubt he thought Demyx could actually do anything to his friends (and if he did, then that just says what Sora thinks of his friends. XD) And Sora never says anything on the matter. He just taunts him. Which leads to..

I doubt that Sora was actually seeing Demyx as the main danger to his friends, but y'know, the massive horde of Heartless Leon & co. had to face.
We do see Yuffie slumping down in exhaustion in one scene and it was made pretty clear that the defenders were badly outnumbered.
The FF characters are very strong no doubt and each of them can probably defeat more than 200 Heartless with ease, but stamina and exhaustion certainly do play a role and as I detailed further above, Sora had also quite some other ugly stuff flying through his mind at the time.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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In KH2, Riku seemingly gets a new set of clothes without any explanation. Like seriously, did he rob a store or something to get them? This is so confusing, how did he get them???!!!
He's been living in Twilight Town for a year, so he had plenty of time to get a new outfit and somehow fit it underneath the coat.

Not that I'm dismissing the idea that he stole them~

Now I have it in my head that Riku stole clothes but felt bad, so he worked as a mail delivery boy in Twilight Town to pay for it. But occasionally his clothes would get destroyed from accidentally transforming into Ansem. And the shopkeepers are very confused why clothes keep going missing but don't complain because munny always shows up later.

The whole "May my heart be my guiding key" phrase is really starting to rub me off. I swear if they repeat that cliched cheesy phrase in KH3 over and over again, I'm going to lose it. Maleficent's darkness quotes works cause it's kind of brings her own little charm that makes her so important to the whole light vs dark theme.
"May my heart be my guiding key" is gonna be the new "Sora! Donald! Goofy!"
 

Zettaflare

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I just thought of another one. When Terranort lost his memories why did his eyes turn brown? Wouldn't it have made more sense for then to return to Terra's blue?
 

Grono

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The fact that the entire game Dream Drop Distance, and even some fans of the series, played up the fact that nobodies grew their own hearts as some huge revelation that completely revolutionized the entire series and made you think about everything differently. Like, even the interviewers in some of these interviews I read at the time on the game played up that fact as a mind-blowing revelation to the series. Guys, seriously, how hard have you been paying attention to these games? Because I thought that it became quite fucking obvious that that was the case since that aforementioned "Roxas, are you sure you don't have a heart?" scene, and even way before that scene became international in Days. Like, seriously, Xemnas? And Sora's shocked by this?! Jeez, this series is dumb sometimes :p
 

Muke

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To be completely fair from an in-universe pov? Yen Sid only told Sora and the guys so much. Nobodies don't have hearts, period. And if they have feelings, they're just pretending.

Also, they had to somehow do a big reveal for that in DDD - not everyone is reading the interviews. And not everyone had played KH2 FM at that point.
 

Audo

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Like, seriously, Xemnas? And Sora's shocked by this?! Jeez, this series is dumb sometimes :p
i mean, sora doesn't really act shocked at all? he also had no way of knowing otherwise. by believing the authority figure who told him so. sora didn't witness the roxas/axel conversation. sora didn't really feel their pain. sora didn't know their lives and experiences. but the minute he did he knew that they had hearts and confronted xigbar about it. for sora the "shock" was more about how xemnas and xigbar had manipulated and tricked and lied to their "friends" and led them to do heinous things in the name of reclaiming something they already had.

also, it wasn't a surprise for anyone that roxas had a heart of course, but a lot of the series built this up as being because he had Ven's heart. the revelation that it wasn't just roxas, but every single nobody and every single living thing had the capacity to grow a heart and stating this plainly was a bigger step and reveal.

but it's also kinda funny for people to complain about the reveal not being !!!! enough. like this was actually good? instead of just throwing a random plot twist at the series for "surprise", they actually built this one up and put in hints towards it in multiple games so that when you look back on it you can actually see the evidence for it and groundwork for it across the series and not just in one game. that is like, how good reveals work.
 
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Grono

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To be completely fair from an in-universe pov? Yen Sid only told Sora and the guys so much. Nobodies don't have hearts, period. And if they have feelings, they're just pretending.

Also, they had to somehow do a big reveal for that in DDD - not everyone is reading the interviews. And not everyone had played KH2 FM at that point.

Again, Days made it pretty clear that they had feelings too. And I remember back then; it's not like no one played Days. All of my friends had played Days; it was pretty well known as the "good one" of the KH DS games for little kids that didn't know what quality games were. This also pertains to the Sora nitpicks I've heard; Sora's either an idiot or an asshole to really think that nobodies can't feel feelings. Maybe he was just tripped up since Saix never showed emotion, but otherwise it's pretty clear that nobodies are people too. Also, Yen Sid and Ansem the Wise were totally being racists at that point in time; sure, the characters might have just followed what they said because they're smart, but there's been so many points in this series where both have been proven to be wrong about a lot of things (take Ansem forgiving Roxas and Yen Sid finding out about TWTNW in DDD as good examples of this). This also pertains to a rule of film-making; always rely on what the audience does or doesn't know as opposed to catering to the characters' realistic reactions or revelations in the story. There's no point for us as audience members to have our minds "blown" by this revelation; sure, it might have happened in-universe, but in reality the audience would have already been skeptical of this.

Revealing this in a glossary article or journal entry would have been more clever and less problematic; it'd be like if there was a scene in Return of the Jedi where Luke straight up said "ew, you're my sister, and we kissed! Did you know Darth Vader was your father?!" just like that. Not only does it remove any subtlety from the scene that was present before, but it also doesn't respect the characters, nor the audience, in being able to come to the same conclusion. Watch how Leia reacts to Luke's gentle phrasing of "the force is strong in my family"; she's at first confused, then empowered, then scared, then understanding. This scene lets the audience, and Leia, come to the same conclusion of her sister/daughter status without saying a word about that status directly.

Video Games take a lot from film; without this aire of mystery around the nobodies, how are you supposed to let your audience know that you respect their intelligence and have faith in their ability to dissect Yen Sid's or Ansem the Wise's words like this? Why not diddly with Sora's mind and say something like "ah, Sora; foolish in your efforts to destroy us, and foolish in your narrative of our nature. But, let me speak to Roxas for a minute; how does he feel? Does he have something to say about the situation, or is it just you, Sora, leading the train? Tell me, Sora; of all of the voices in your head, which one rings the loudest? Are any of them individual, or do you still trust your Master Yen Sid in believing that all of these people that have suffered by your actions are 'faking' their emotions?" Wouldn't that be a smarter and more interesting way to portray that idea and lay those seeds of doubt that he's so obsessed with instead of just outright explaining this to Sora step by step?

P.S. I know my writing isn't the best, but bear with me on that :p Also, that gives me an idea: Reimagine Kingdom Hearts Mark II coming to you soon!

Doubley P.S. Audo does have a point. That's how good reveals work; I just wish it had better writing is all. The writing makes the whole thing fall apart; not once does the player's character question this concept other than Days, and the fact that Sora never questioned Yen Sid's words until DDD is more than a little concerning, since the minute Axel apologized and died in Betwixt and Between he should've had a light bulb moment going off in his head that nobodies totally had their own feelings. He did question it before his Xemnas encounter as well; "you deserve to be your own person". It's just sort of odd that nobody questioned this beforehand. Again, it's a nitpick; this isn't as big of a problem as I'm getting at. I just love talking about film analysis and writing is all, and including my writings in video game form is quite important in my eyes to see what film analysis and video game analysis have in common narratively.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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To be completely fair from an in-universe pov? Yen Sid only told Sora and the guys so much. Nobodies don't have hearts, period. And if they have feelings, they're just pretending.

Also, they had to somehow do a big reveal for that in DDD - not everyone is reading the interviews. And not everyone had played KH2 FM at that point.

Yea, that's one thing but KH 2 itself even without the FM, Days, Re: Coded and even Chain of Memories already cast an ambigious light on this and it was never outright confirmed anywhere that the "don't having hearts"-state is a permament one that cannot be changed ever in any way.
Ironically this supposed "fact" is hammered down and mentioned so often in KH 2 that it does become somewhat conspicuous, palizinhas also pointed this out already in this very same thread.
They continue to spew this mantra despite there being plenty of implications even in KH 2 itself that this might not be the entire truth.

Therefore I think the nitpick Grono is talking about is more about many fans took this whole "not having hearts" as a set-in-stone unchangeable fact and cry "retcon" when it was never actually portrayed like this due to a aforementioned ambiguity and DDD also does not actually contradict KH 2 in any form on this.

"Nobodies don't have hearts" is still true as that is the initial state of any Nobody. That there is a possible evolution/development that may result eventually in a new heart is something that was in context always possible and DDD just set it in stone.
The hints and implications towards it were in several of the other games of the series before DDD so one could have picked them up by paying enough attention even without a single of Nomura's interviews.

Therefore
GronoTRIGGERED said:
Guys, seriously, how hard have you been paying attention to these games?
isn't exactly a wrong question to ask as the "big reveal" in DDD isn't even that big since one paying attention to the other titles could have seen this coming from miles away.
It just confirms in plain words what has had already been hinted at throughout the series itself without Nomura interviews.

In-universe Sora's "shock" about it is much more palpable as a) this is Sora, he's generally a little slow on the uptake and b) it is portrayed as such that these facts about the growing hearts was known to only four persons: Xehanort, Xemnas, Xigbar and Ansem the Wise/DiZ, with the latter willfully ignoring his findings in order to continue pursuing his revenge.
DiZ even mentions this indirectly in KH 2 itself:
Ansem the Wise said:
A heart is so much more than any system. I saw it when Roxas and
Kairi crossed paths. I knew. But I was too stubborn to accept it.

Mickey later even quotes the "more than a system"-part when speaking/implicating about the fact that Data-Sora grew a heart:
Re: Coded said:
Sora: What...just... The Keyblade?

Pete (shocked): W-what's the big idea!? I saw Maleficent destroy that thing!

Mickey: Sora, you're just full of surprises!

(Mickey enters)

Sora: Mickey!

Sora: Why? What did I do?

Mickey: I'm not sure, Sora. All I can say is that something in you
has changed.
The Keyblade takes its power from the wielder's strength
of heart. But an old friend of mine once said, "A heart is so much more
than any system."
I gave you the Keyblade as data, and never expected
it to match the real Keyblade's power. But during your journey, you made
a connection...with us. You've risen above the system, Sora, and gained
power unlike anybody else's.
And THAT's what brought your Keyblade back.

Something inside Data-Sora changed? Check.
A heart is mentioned through the quote of Ansem from KH 2? Check.
Mickey speaks about Data-Sora connecting with him, Donald and Goofy, causing him to rise above the system and gained power "unlike anybody else's" (a heart, since hearts are unique).

The whole forming a connection to grow a heart-thingy which is "revealed" in grand sweeping motions by both Xemnas and Ansem the Wise in DDD was actually already mentioned before here, predating DDD.

A bit earlier one gets this exchange in Re: Coded:
Re: Coded said:
Pete: Gah ha ha ha! What a pair of rubes! Why risk your necks for a
lump of data? Oh yeah, I know all about this phony. Youse guys MADE him,
just like that phony Keyblade he's got!

Donald: Don't you ever talk about Sora like that! He's our friend in
this world and every other one, too!

Sora: Donald...

Pete: Hmph, maybe on the outside, but he's just an empty shell. The kid
don't got a heart.


Goofy: That's not true! We've got Sora's heart right here!

Pete: Oh yeah?

Donald: You'd see it too, if you were looking. Why would he keep
fighting for us--no matter the danger, no matter how hard things got--if
he didn't care?


Goofy: A-yep! And we'll fight for him too. Ya know why? Because he's
in our hearts as much as we're in his. Our friend is our power!


Donald: And we'll always be his!

Sora: We're...connected.

Sounds familiar? Well duh, we get the very same thing, just worded differently, in DDD as well:
DDD said:
Riku: It can't be that simple.

Joshua: Well, why can't it? By ourselves, we're no one. It's when other
people look at us and see someone--that's the moment we each start to exist.

All they needed was for someone to see them, connect with them. And the two
of you were a big part of making it happen.

So yep, I can very well see from where Grono's nitpick comes from at least in regards to the fandom-side of things.

The whole time-travel mumbo-jumbo and different way to piece together the X-blade were arguably bigger reveals and came way more out of nowhere than the whole heart-growing stuff.
 

Grono

KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack.
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New Nitpick: Winnie the Pooh's world is reserved to a command board in BbS. Don't get me wrong, I like command board; but I also love Pooh Bear and wanted a whole world with him ^u^
 

FudgemintGuardian

Moist with roistering
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Riku has bright blue eyes. All official art has him with blue eyes. All his character models have blue eyes. He has blue eyes in the first game's opening FMV. But KHII and DDD's FMVs have him with GREEN eyes!
 

Muke

whatever
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Kairi has a slight purple tint in her eyes in Openings+Endings and the new models, yet has those blue eyes in the games
Whyyyy
 

Zapt

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Nitpick:In KH1 when you first meet him why didn't Aladdin use the lamp earlier to get out of the quicksand? was he like"im gonna wait for spike-haired kid to appear and THEN i will use the lamp"
and when Sora appears,Aladdin gets out of the quicksand like it was nothing!
 
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Riruru

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It takes 2-3 games for Phil to finally acknowledge SDG as heroes when they've already saved countless worlds. Meanwhile, his criteria for special training is smacking barrels into things.

OK, nitpick that relates to the Nobody discussion going on: "just give it a rest! You're Nobodies! You don't even exist. You're not sad about anything!!" Says Sora, not very long after Axel sacrifices himself to save him.

That right there, folks, is a prime example of why many of us think KHII has shitty writing.

I'm all for Sora jumping to conclusions towards what the organization are since after all, like it was stated before, it depends on context. He was indirectly conditioned to hate them. It doesn't help that he probably has lingering feelings from both what the organization did to Roxas and what they did to Namine despite not having any recollection of it. It would've made for an interesting character arc for him to realize that they aren't as heartless as he thought. But of course, that line ruined the entire thing. I remember thinking that that exchange in particular was so out-of-place even though Sora had been unfairly judging the Organization from the beginning.

Ahh, now I think we're getting to the crux of the whole discussion here, as we both have apparently quite a different overall image of Sora.
Ansem the Wise does indeed say that and that Sora has an uncorrupted heart is indeed true, but that doesn't mean that "willing to see the good before the bad" is an universal truth that Sora always adheres to.
Sora is human and therefore also has flaws and is capable of misjudgement and not always seeing the good before the bad despite the willingness possibly being there due to circumstances and his own emotional state.
Sora would be a true "messiah" or "Gary Stu"-figure if what Ansem says in in DDD would apply universally and all across the board regardless of which the circumstances of the current setting are.

I agree. Plus maybe we just interpreted those lines differently from everyone else, but to me, having an uncorrupted mind that sees the world like a child does not equal always doing the right thing. It could also be because I've seen Hunter x Hunter and witnessed exactly how having an uncorrupted and pure heart that is willing to see the good before the bad can lead you down some screwed up pathways. I don't blame others for interpreting that quote as the other way around though, given how much KH loves hammering down the "light is absolute good" and "darkness is evil" elements in the story.
 
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