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vaderskywalker

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"But then, if Roxas is his own person, shouldn't the Org members nobodies and somebodies now be seperate too? Does Lea have Axel's regrown heart trapped inside hi-"
I've been wondering that very thing since DDD, because by that logic, Lea shouldn't care about Roxas and/or Xion, atleast not to the extent Axel did, and vice versa, and not only that, but it implies that sense Roxas and Namine had been rejoined with Sora and Kairi at the end of KH2, that Sora and Kairi should have gotten their memories too, it just raises alot more questions than it should.
 
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LoneFox

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I've been wondering that very thing since DDD, because by that logic, Lea shouldn't care about Roxas and/or Xion, atleast not to the extent Axel did, and vice versa, and not only that, but it implies that sense Roxas and Namine had been rejoined with Sora and Kairi at the end of KH2, that Sora and Kairi should have gotten their memories too, it just raises alot more questions than it should.
The difference is that Axel/Lea was recompleted, while neither Sora nor Kairi was. I don't see any problem here.
 

LoneFox

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Roxas and Namine became part of Sora and Kairi again. How is that not being "recompleted"?
Recompletion is what happens after both one's heartless and nobody have been killed. All their components return to the place where they originally lost their heart and become the original person (or "somebody") again. If you assume that this process includes merging the heart grown by the nobody with the original one, then it all makes perfect sense.

Now, you may argue that returning to Sora could count as death for Roxas... But in any case Sora's heartless was never killed, it was transformed back to Sora instead. And Kairi doesn't even have a heartless, so she cannot be recompleted by definition.
 

WaltK

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But then, how where Roxas and Namine considered their "own people", but not the other Org members?

If Axel, the Nobody of Lea, grew his own heart, then that should have made him his "own person" too, right? If the only reason he's not living on as an individual is because he was killed rather than being willingly returned to Lea… are these new living beings just being condemned to death? Did Sora commit outright murder when he killed the other members?

Why is it okay for Roxas and Namine to live on, but not Axel or the other Org members?




…my brain's cramping up.
 
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Dandelion

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But then, how where Roxas and Namine considered their "own people", but not the other Org members?

If Axel, the Nobody of Lea, grew his own heart, then that should have made him his "own person" too, right? If the only reason he's not living on as an individual is because he was killed rather than being willingly returned to Lea… are these new living beings just being condemned to death? Did Sora commit outright murder when he killed the other members?

Why is it okay for Roxas and Namine to live on, but not Axel or the other Org members?




…my brain's cramping up.

Because those other members of the Organization didn't bother differentiating themselves.

Roxas woke up without memories of his past life and they never came to him. He was a clean slate and was able to forge his own identity based solely on his experiences from creation on. The other members of the Organization remember their past lives and even though they make a point to say that can't feel (which ends up being false down the road) they "remember what it's like." Their entire identities are formed on the lives they lost, and so because they hold onto a sense of continuous self, the hearts they regrow are indistinguishable from what they had before. They're just ignorant to them.

To put it more clearly in a context where this is spelled out for us, let's look at Axel. When Roxas asks Axel what he was like before he became a Nobody, Axel says he was more or less the same guy that he is now. When he reforms as Lea, he has memories of his time as Axel and though he starts off as 'Lea' eventually he asks to be called Axel again, the line in the chain never breaks -- there is no chance for a new identity/heart to spawn.

They don't see the differences and their lives are continuous existences.

Xemnas, however, did form a unique identity given the multi-stacked heart situation that lead to his creation. He renounced "Xehanort" as an identity and formed as someone unique and new -- a special Nobody. In instances like this where there is enough of a difference that the person reclaims a new sense of self, then you're looking at a different person.

The Organization's real goal, as explained by Xigbar, was to get the members to renounce that sense of self so that Xehanort could more easily overtake the heart and literally just make everyone into a Xehanort clone. However that's not so simple once the person has a lived experience or if they had memories of who they were before.

In short: in instances were Nobodies consider themselves to be a splintered part of a previous existence that they can remember, that's what they are; because their sense of self is shaped by that life, that sense of existence just continues and the heart that recompletes merely absorbs the experiences of the prior life.

In instances where the Nobody forges an identity that is not contingent on or continuing the life they had before, it creates a new personhood. Even if that Nobody recompletes, the heart they grow is not an extension of what or who they were before and so it is separate, though the two remain linked.

They see themselves as unique, and so that's what they become.
 

WaltK

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Because those other members of the Organization didn't bother differentiating themselves.

Roxas woke up without memories of his past life and they never came to him. He was a clean slate and was able to forge his own identity based solely on his experiences from creation on. The other members of the Organization remember their past lives and even though they make a point to say that can't feel (which ends up being false down the road) they "remember what it's like." Their entire identities are formed on the lives they lost, and so because they hold onto a sense of continuous self, the hearts they regrow are indistinguishable from what they had before. They're just ignorant to them.

To put it more clearly in a context where this is spelled out for us, let's look at Axel. When Roxas asks Axel what he was like before he became a Nobody, Axel says he was more or less the same guy that he is now. When he reforms as Lea, he has memories of his time as Axel and though he starts off as 'Lea' eventually he asks to be called Axel again, the line in the chain never breaks -- there is no chance for a new identity/heart to spawn.

They don't see the differences and their lives are continuous existences.

Xemnas, however, did form a unique identity given the multi-stacked heart situation that lead to his creation. He renounced "Xehanort" as an identity and formed as someone unique and new -- a special Nobody. In instances like this where there is enough of a difference that the person reclaims a new sense of self, then you're looking at a different person.

The Organization's real goal, as explained by Xigbar, was to get the members to renounce that sense of self so that Xehanort could more easily overtake the heart and literally just make everyone into a Xehanort clone. However that's not so simple once the person has a lived experience or if they had memories of who they were before.

In short: in instances were Nobodies consider themselves to be a splintered part of a previous existence that they can remember, that's what they are; because their sense of self is shaped by that life, that sense of existence just continues and the heart that recompletes merely absorbs the experiences of the prior life.

In instances where the Nobody forges an identity that is not contingent on or continuing the life they had before, it creates a new personhood. Even if that Nobody recompletes, the heart they grow is not an extension of what or who they were before and so it is separate, though the two remain linked.

They see themselves as unique, and so that's what they become.
That's actually incredibly well-explained. Thank you.
 

LoneFox

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The Organization's real goal, as explained by Xigbar, was to get the members to renounce that sense of self
That sounds like Buddhism, except getting norted is pretty much the opposite of becoming enlightened. 🙃
It becomes interesting when you notice how similar Xehanort's youth was to that of Siddhartha Gautama, both being isolated from rest of the world to protect them from seeing the darkness/suffering. And then there is also the hurt, I don't know what it's called in the original Japanese, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is a derivative of dukkha.

Now the question is, how much more of this we have missed?
 

Dandelion

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That sounds like Buddhism, except getting norted is pretty much the opposite of becoming enlightened. 🙃
It becomes interesting when you notice how similar Xehanort's youth was to that of Siddhartha Gautama, both being isolated from rest of the world to protect them from seeing the darkness/suffering. And then there is also the hurt, I don't know what it's called in the original Japanese, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is a derivative of dukkha.

I believe iteratives of itame are used.
 

vaderskywalker

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Because those other members of the Organization didn't bother differentiating themselves.

Roxas woke up without memories of his past life and they never came to him. He was a clean slate and was able to forge his own identity based solely on his experiences from creation on. The other members of the Organization remember their past lives and even though they make a point to say that can't feel (which ends up being false down the road) they "remember what it's like." Their entire identities are formed on the lives they lost, and so because they hold onto a sense of continuous self, the hearts they regrow are indistinguishable from what they had before. They're just ignorant to them.

To put it more clearly in a context where this is spelled out for us, let's look at Axel. When Roxas asks Axel what he was like before he became a Nobody, Axel says he was more or less the same guy that he is now. When he reforms as Lea, he has memories of his time as Axel and though he starts off as 'Lea' eventually he asks to be called Axel again, the line in the chain never breaks -- there is no chance for a new identity/heart to spawn.

They don't see the differences and their lives are continuous existences.

Xemnas, however, did form a unique identity given the multi-stacked heart situation that lead to his creation. He renounced "Xehanort" as an identity and formed as someone unique and new -- a special Nobody. In instances like this where there is enough of a difference that the person reclaims a new sense of self, then you're looking at a different person.

The Organization's real goal, as explained by Xigbar, was to get the members to renounce that sense of self so that Xehanort could more easily overtake the heart and literally just make everyone into a Xehanort clone. However that's not so simple once the person has a lived experience or if they had memories of who they were before.

In short: in instances were Nobodies consider themselves to be a splintered part of a previous existence that they can remember, that's what they are; because their sense of self is shaped by that life, that sense of existence just continues and the heart that recompletes merely absorbs the experiences of the prior life.

In instances where the Nobody forges an identity that is not contingent on or continuing the life they had before, it creates a new personhood. Even if that Nobody recompletes, the heart they grow is not an extension of what or who they were before and so it is separate, though the two remain linked.

They see themselves as unique, and so that's what they become.
Fair enough.
 

Guernsey

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Because those other members of the Organization didn't bother differentiating themselves.

Roxas woke up without memories of his past life and they never came to him. He was a clean slate and was able to forge his own identity based solely on his experiences from creation on. The other members of the Organization remember their past lives and even though they make a point to say that can't feel (which ends up being false down the road) they "remember what it's like." Their entire identities are formed on the lives they lost, and so because they hold onto a sense of continuous self, the hearts they regrow are indistinguishable from what they had before. They're just ignorant to them.

To put it more clearly in a context where this is spelled out for us, let's look at Axel. When Roxas asks Axel what he was like before he became a Nobody, Axel says he was more or less the same guy that he is now. When he reforms as Lea, he has memories of his time as Axel and though he starts off as 'Lea' eventually he asks to be called Axel again, the line in the chain never breaks -- there is no chance for a new identity/heart to spawn.

They don't see the differences and their lives are continuous existences.

Xemnas, however, did form a unique identity given the multi-stacked heart situation that lead to his creation. He renounced "Xehanort" as an identity and formed as someone unique and new -- a special Nobody. In instances like this where there is enough of a difference that the person reclaims a new sense of self, then you're looking at a different person.

The Organization's real goal, as explained by Xigbar, was to get the members to renounce that sense of self so that Xehanort could more easily overtake the heart and literally just make everyone into a Xehanort clone. However that's not so simple once the person has a lived experience or if they had memories of who they were before.

In short: in instances were Nobodies consider themselves to be a splintered part of a previous existence that they can remember, that's what they are; because their sense of self is shaped by that life, that sense of existence just continues and the heart that recompletes merely absorbs the experiences of the prior life.

In instances where the Nobody forges an identity that is not contingent on or continuing the life they had before, it creates a new personhood. Even if that Nobody recompletes, the heart they grow is not an extension of what or who they were before and so it is separate, though the two remain linked.

They see themselves as unique, and so that's what they become.

Even though this makes sense, I really hate how we don't get to see their Heartless forms. I guess it does not matter at this point as their original Heartless forms are probably gone. I do wonder about the other Nobodies who got hearts from the destroyed artificial Kingdom Hearts at the end of KH2.
 

Launchpad

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Even though this makes sense, I really hate how we don't get to see their Heartless forms. I guess it does not matter at this point as their original Heartless forms are probably gone. I do wonder about the other Nobodies who got hearts from the destroyed artificial Kingdom Hearts at the end of KH2.
The boring answer is that their heartless forms were, at best, one of the few pure-blood heartless, so that narrows it down to Shadows, Neoshadows, Invisibles, those bat things, Darkballs, Fire Cores, Water Cores, and Earth Cores.. or one of the few pure-blood bosses, like Darkside.

It's pretty easy to guess what heartless each person turned into, when you think about it..
 

Zackarix

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Roxas woke up without memories of his past life and they never came to him. He was a clean slate and was able to forge his own identity based solely on his experiences from creation on. The other members of the Organization remember their past lives and even though they make a point to say that can't feel (which ends up being false down the road) they "remember what it's like." Their entire identities are formed on the lives they lost, and so because they hold onto a sense of continuous self, the hearts they regrow are indistinguishable from what they had before. They're just ignorant to them.
Shouldn't this mean that Marluxia and Larxene would be separate people from Lauriam and Elrena, given that they have amnesia regarding their past?

Not that I expect the story to go down that path, because the actual reason between the difference in treatment for these cases is Doylist. Roxas and Namine always felt like more than extensions of Sora and Kairi, but the rest of Organization XIII's others exist to serve as backstory for the Nobodies.

But if we're taking the Watsonian logic to its natural conclusion...
 

Dandelion

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Shouldn't this mean that Marluxia and Larxene would be separate people from Lauriam and Elrena, given that they have amnesia regarding their past?

Not that I expect the story to go down that path, because the actual reason between the difference in treatment for these cases is Doylist. Roxas and Namine always felt like more than extensions of Sora and Kairi, but the rest of Organization XIII's others exist to serve as backstory for the Nobodies.

But if we're taking the Watsonian logic to its natural conclusion...

I mean, we'll see. Though I'd argue the difference is that Lauriam and Elrena lost their memories (probably?) and THEN became Nobodies, so Malruxia and Larxene still consider themselves extensions of their human forms.

Even though this makes sense, I really hate how we don't get to see their Heartless forms. I guess it does not matter at this point as their original Heartless forms are probably gone. I do wonder about the other Nobodies who got hearts from the destroyed artificial Kingdom Hearts at the end of KH2.

Nomura confirmed a long time ago that their Heartless were run-of-the-mill and nothing to write home about.
 

WaltK

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I noticed during my recent speedthrough of KH1 that, for some reason, none of the scenes in Hollow Bastion's second visit can be skipped.

There's also a weird quirk with the first Final Mix-exclusive scene where you can't even pause it until Riku starts talking.
 
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