• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

Sign

trapped in revamp hell
Staff member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
17,075
Awards
35
  • Ninja'd
  • In the Grid
  • Kingdom Hearts Collection
  • Ever Gentle and Kind
  • Fairest of them All
  • Look at This Stuff!
I still don’t get why Riku, Mickey or even Lea have never thought that it might be a good idea to tell Sora about what happened at Castle Oblivion. Considering that they are aware that all the Organization XIII members were going to be recompleted at the some point in the future, someone should of really told Sora that he doesn’t have any memories of several of the original Organization XIII members and that some of them probably still hold a grudge. They could have easily told him at the end of Dream Drop Distance when he saw Lea for the first time.
Let sleeping dogs lie.
 

Guernsey

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
769
Awards
4
Age
33
  • Old Timer
  • Nothing's Like Before
  • Cheeeeese!
  • Awakening
I think KH2 was supposed to be a mystery as to Roxas is and how he relates to the Organization. I think it just wasn't executed well.
 

SweetYetSalty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
Messages
1,831
Awards
10
Age
31
  • Before Midnight
  • Awakening
  • Cheeeeese!
  • Longest Night
  • Welcome Comittee
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
I think KH2 was supposed to be a mystery as to Roxas is and how he relates to the Organization. I think it just wasn't executed well.
This is my stance on KH2 Roxas. I think it was a good concept, but badly executed. The Organization storyline of KH2 works perfectly fine without him, honestly.
 

KudoTsurugi

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
188
Awards
8
Age
27
  • Before Midnight
  • Happy Holidays!
  • Kingdom Hearts II
  • Kingdom Hearts
  • The World Ends with You: Solo Remix
  • Vulpes Union
I still don’t get why Riku, Mickey or even Lea have never thought that it might be a good idea to tell Sora about what happened at Castle Oblivion. Considering that they are aware that all the Organization XIII members were going to be recompleted at the some point in the future, someone should of really told Sora that he doesn’t have any memories of several of the original Organization XIII members and that some of them probably still hold a grudge. They could have easily told him at the end of Dream Drop Distance when he saw Lea for the first time.
Here's a thought: What if seeing Marluxia and/or Larxene triggered Sora’s memories of Castle Oblivion? Not like, revert him to how he was while in the castle, but more like déjà vu. Like, at first he feels like he knows them but can't place where from.. until they bring up Naminé, and some of those memories flood back in, mainly those related to fighting them rather than the false ones of Naminé. Because if some of those memories are still inside him, that would've been a neat way to see them reconnect.
 

Vulpes XIII

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Messages
149
Awards
8
Age
24
Location
Castle Oblivion
  • Vulpes Union
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
  • Longest Night
  • Awakening
  • Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories
  • Kingdom Hearts
Here's a thought: What if seeing Marluxia and/or Larxene triggered Sora’s memories of Castle Oblivion? Not like, revert him to how he was while in the castle, but more like déjà vu. Like, at first he feels like he knows them but can't place where from.. until they bring up Naminé, and some of those memories flood back in, mainly those related to fighting them rather than the false ones of Naminé. Because if some of those memories are still inside him, that would've been a neat way to see them reconnect.
This should of been exactly what happened in the game, when Sora came across Marluxia and Larxene I was waiting for something like this to happen and honestly I was disappointed when it didn’t. In my opinion Nomura not addressing Castle Oblivion made him miss out on such a good chance to further Sora’s character development.
 

AdrianXXII

Dyslexic rambler
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
2,373
Awards
13
Location
Switzerland
  • Nothing's Like Before
  • Awakening
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts III
  • Kingdom Hearts: Melody of Memory
Oddly enough I kinda assume Sora, Donald and Goofy know the jist of what happened in Castle Oblivion, but obviously wouldn't know much about the other members of the original Organisation. Though his reaction to Ienzo makes me wonder, if he ever reads Jiminy's Journal.

At the very least it seems Kairi and co. now have a pretty good idea of all the events of the Xehanort Saga.
 

Guernsey

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
769
Awards
4
Age
33
  • Old Timer
  • Nothing's Like Before
  • Cheeeeese!
  • Awakening
Sora literally had his memories messed up by Castle Oblivion as well as Namine herself. I think that that something that got "messed up" during memory restoration,
 

Vulpes XIII

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Messages
149
Awards
8
Age
24
Location
Castle Oblivion
  • Vulpes Union
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
  • Longest Night
  • Awakening
  • Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories
  • Kingdom Hearts
The death scences in KH3 are kind of awkward when you think about it I mean I get they wanted Sora to talk to the characters as they wanted to try and quickly conclude a character arc or set them up for the next arc. However am I seriously expected to believe that during Sora’s chats, the moment he let his guard down, that members like Vanitas and Larxene wouldnt of tried to take advantage of the situation and kill Sora instantly, I mean they definitely don’t come across as people who would have the patience or politeness to stand around waiting.
 

Face My Fears

She's not an "it"!
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
4,566
Awards
18
  • Sea Salt Trio
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
  • Red Travels the Farthest
  • Kingdom Hearts III
  • Kingdom Hearts II
  • Kingdom Hearts
This is my stance on KH2 Roxas. I think it was a good concept, but badly executed. The Organization storyline of KH2 works perfectly fine without him, honestly.
I loved how Roxas was used in vanilla KH2. Back when I was younger, I figured out pretty much that Riku/Roxas fought because Riku wanted to bring Roxas back to fix Sora. Also I think Nomura needed Roxas there to add weight to Axel's character. It would have been weird for Axel to just turn on the Organization for no reason, let alone help Sora, especially after what we witnessed of Axel's character in CoM and how ruthless he was. I think Roxas' inclusion is the only thing that actually makes the Organization seem antagonistic to Sora. This is because it connects Sora/The Organization and makes it apparent that they actually did something to hurt Sora (going after Roxas). Without Roxas in KH2, The Organization is just a mysterious group of people going after Kingdom Hearts with no depth or reason - besides, of course, the reasoning that they chose to become nobodies and now they want their hearts back.
The death scences in KH3 are kind of awkward when you think about it I mean I get they wanted Sora to talk to the characters as they wanted to try and quickly conclude a character arc or set them up for the next arc. However am I seriously expected to believe that during Sora’s chats, the moment he let his guard down, that members like Vanitas and Larxene wouldnt of tried to take advantage of the situation and kill Sora instantly, I mean they definitely don’t come across as people who would have the patience or politeness to stand around waiting.
I envision that Sora kills the ones he knows are more merciless and aggressive, like Larxene and Vanitas, first so that the more respectful ones like Luxord and Dark Riku will politely stand by and watch the death scene/last words happen. Or the deaths are supposed to happen at the same time chronologically. As in, all of the members get killed at the same time and he walks up to each one to hear their dying thoughts one after the other. Or when Sora listens to the dying words, the others are stunned or knocked out.

I do think it played out a little weird because it's a chat, then right back to fighting. I'm not sure how it could have been done better to not be so awkward.
 

Guernsey

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
769
Awards
4
Age
33
  • Old Timer
  • Nothing's Like Before
  • Cheeeeese!
  • Awakening
Talking is not a free action in reality but I wonder why Sora and the others stopped to hear their death speeches?
 

Vulpes XIII

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Messages
149
Awards
8
Age
24
Location
Castle Oblivion
  • Vulpes Union
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
  • Longest Night
  • Awakening
  • Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories
  • Kingdom Hearts
The whole thing about the Nameless star identity in KH3, I am not a fan of how it all played out for a few reasons

1) The interview where Nomura said something along the lines of how we know who the Nameless star is as they have already appeared in a Kingdom Hearts game and is not a brand new character. I know she appeared before the Final world in KH3 for like a minute, but I still count that as a brand new character not someone who is already a existing character.

2) The Nameless star story fits Strelitzia perfectly but Nomura would rather abandon a plot point that would make a lot of sense in favour of his new Versus XIII game. If you look at a couple of things the Nameless star tells Sora it fits really well with the Lauriam and Strelitzia situation for example:

” He’s been changed beyond recognition, his heart replaced by another’s but were he to regain his old self again, he would be distressed by my absence”.

She said the reason she ended up in the Final World is because of “ a somebody“

Also given Strelitzia knew Elrena, if the Nameless star was Strelitzia the whole “ Our secret” dialogue would be a nice reference to Larxene’s “ My secret”.
 

SweetYetSalty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
Messages
1,831
Awards
10
Age
31
  • Before Midnight
  • Awakening
  • Cheeeeese!
  • Longest Night
  • Welcome Comittee
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
I loved how Roxas was used in vanilla KH2. Back when I was younger, I figured out pretty much that Riku/Roxas fought because Riku wanted to bring Roxas back to fix Sora. Also I think Nomura needed Roxas there to add weight to Axel's character. It would have been weird for Axel to just turn on the Organization for no reason, let alone help Sora, especially after what we witnessed of Axel's character in CoM and how ruthless he was. I think Roxas' inclusion is the only thing that actually makes the Organization seem antagonistic to Sora. This is because it connects Sora/The Organization and makes it apparent that they actually did something to hurt Sora (going after Roxas). Without Roxas in KH2, The Organization is just a mysterious group of people going after Kingdom Hearts with no depth or reason - besides, of course, the reasoning that they chose to become nobodies and now they want their hearts back.
Good post. I enjoyed reading this. I guess I'll go into why I think Roxas was a good idea in KH2 but poorly executed. With the Axel thing, what they could have done was have him kidnap and guard Kairi, bond with her while guarding her, then help her try to escape. This would have given Kairi more agency in KH2, while also keeping the 'do Nobodies really have hearts' story in but that falls in line with fanfic territory though. The Riku/Roxas fight is solid. I agree with you there in that he was important.

You would think Roxas would connect Sora to the Organization more, but other then the odd nickname they give him, Sora is not really that connected with them other then trying to stop their evil plans. The Organization calling Sora "Roxas" holds very little weight until after Saix is defeated near the very end of the game where he finally asks who Roxas is? Despite having many teases of Roxas through the game, Sora will use it to solve a problem, then largely ignores it (ironically the same way Roxas ignores his Sora dreams lol) even after they fight inside his heart it almost feels pointless from Sora's perspective because he wipes it from his mind shortly after to go save Kairi. The Final Mix version fixed that with the Roxas/Axel dream, but it still holds no weight on Sora in the game.

My biggest problem with how Roxas was in KH2 was that he didn't impact Sora's personal story, but they were building up to it like he was going to. They kept leaving clues and name dropping Roxas. They made Twilight Town and Hayner, Pence, and Olette real places and people when they could have just as easily kept them data exclusive. So naturally you think a big payoff is coming. But Sora and Roxas don't even talk to one another in KH2. Sora barely acknowledged Roxas after learning about him. The KH2 Manga actually fixed a lot of the Roxas/Sora problems I had because it did a better job connected them for that final act.

Roxas is my favorite character in the series now, so I'm glad he was introduced in KH2 and went on to keep appearing in games. Every game after KH2 I feel did a better job with him. Days gave me Roxas with his friends really showing how Nobodies can grow hearts to the point I was rooting for Roxas's team and against Riku's. ReCoded gave me a better version of the Roxas vs Sora showdown and how them communicating with one another really added layers to their relationship that KH2 lacked. And DDD finally gave Sora and Roxas the one-on-one conversation they had been lacking since Roxas's creation into the series. KH3 was just more of what DDD had to offer. It's because of these other games that I can go back and play KH2 and still enjoy Roxas there, despite all these nitpicks. The Roxas boss fight is even one of the best in the series for me.
 

Face My Fears

She's not an "it"!
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
4,566
Awards
18
  • Sea Salt Trio
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
  • Red Travels the Farthest
  • Kingdom Hearts III
  • Kingdom Hearts II
  • Kingdom Hearts
Good post. I enjoyed reading this. I guess I'll go into why I think Roxas was a good idea in KH2 but poorly executed. With the Axel thing, what they could have done was have him kidnap and guard Kairi, bond with her while guarding her, then help her try to escape. This would have given Kairi more agency in KH2, while also keeping the 'do Nobodies really have hearts' story in but that falls in line with fanfic territory though. The Riku/Roxas fight is solid. I agree with you there in that he was important.

You would think Roxas would connect Sora to the Organization more, but other then the odd nickname they give him, Sora is not really that connected with them other then trying to stop their evil plans. The Organization calling Sora "Roxas" holds very little weight until after Saix is defeated near the very end of the game where he finally asks who Roxas is? Despite having many teases of Roxas through the game, Sora will use it to solve a problem, then largely ignores it (ironically the same way Roxas ignores his Sora dreams lol) even after they fight inside his heart it almost feels pointless from Sora's perspective because he wipes it from his mind shortly after to go save Kairi. The Final Mix version fixed that with the Roxas/Axel dream, but it still holds no weight on Sora in the game.

My biggest problem with how Roxas was in KH2 was that he didn't impact Sora's personal story, but they were building up to it like he was going to. They kept leaving clues and name dropping Roxas. They made Twilight Town and Hayner, Pence, and Olette real places and people when they could have just as easily kept them data exclusive. So naturally you think a big payoff is coming. But Sora and Roxas don't even talk to one another in KH2. Sora barely acknowledged Roxas after learning about him. The KH2 Manga actually fixed a lot of the Roxas/Sora problems I had because it did a better job connected them for that final act.

Roxas is my favorite character in the series now, so I'm glad he was introduced in KH2 and went on to keep appearing in games. Every game after KH2 I feel did a better job with him. Days gave me Roxas with his friends really showing how Nobodies can grow hearts to the point I was rooting for Roxas's team and against Riku's. ReCoded gave me a better version of the Roxas vs Sora showdown and how them communicating with one another really added layers to their relationship that KH2 lacked. And DDD finally gave Sora and Roxas the one-on-one conversation they had been lacking since Roxas's creation into the series. KH3 was just more of what DDD had to offer. It's because of these other games that I can go back and play KH2 and still enjoy Roxas there, despite all these nitpicks. The Roxas boss fight is even one of the best in the series for me.
I get what you're saying. Not having Sora/Roxas interact much at all in KH2 was an odd choice, but I kind of understand it. The way Nomura writes stuff in KH may not be conventional, but I do think he has purpose behind it - whether it is effective or not is subjective. I think in terms of how Roxas was done in KH2, I think Nomura wanted the player to understand the struggle of the nobodies to possibly get sympathy for the Organization (I'm talking at the time vanilla KH2 was released). We lived the life of a nobody (Roxas) and then saw his tragic end. KH2 had a general tone of melancholy and I think subconsciously knowing that your opponents are people just like Roxas, struggling just like him to be real even though they have an empty future, was saddening.

Also, the other reason is Nomura's love of OMG moments, even though Roxas being Sora's nobody was pretty obvious. I also think that Sora/Roxas' fight said more about their relationship over a conversation. Roxas was angry and desperate to escape his fate, while Sora reluctantly defeated Roxas, with Roxas ultimately accepting his fate.

I haven't played KH2 since early January 2019 (right before KH3 released), so I'm a little rusty on cutscenes. But KH2 isn't perfect as a lot of people believe, and I think Roxas' use is part of it. But no one will actually call out KH2 on it because it's perfect. I love KH2, but I can be unbiased about stuff in KH.
 

SweetYetSalty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
Messages
1,831
Awards
10
Age
31
  • Before Midnight
  • Awakening
  • Cheeeeese!
  • Longest Night
  • Welcome Comittee
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
I get what you're saying. Not having Sora/Roxas interact much at all in KH2 was an odd choice, but I kind of understand it. The way Nomura writes stuff in KH may not be conventional, but I do think he has purpose behind it - whether it is effective or not is subjective. I think in terms of how Roxas was done in KH2, I think Nomura wanted the player to understand the struggle of the nobodies to possibly get sympathy for the Organization (I'm talking at the time vanilla KH2 was released). We lived the life of a nobody (Roxas) and then saw his tragic end. KH2 had a general tone of melancholy and I think subconsciously knowing that your opponents are people just like Roxas, struggling just like him to be real even though they have an empty future, was saddening.

Also, the other reason is Nomura's love of OMG moments, even though Roxas being Sora's nobody was pretty obvious. I also think that Sora/Roxas' fight said more about their relationship over a conversation. Roxas was angry and desperate to escape his fate, while Sora reluctantly defeated Roxas, with Roxas ultimately accepting his fate.

I haven't played KH2 since early January 2019 (right before KH3 released), so I'm a little rusty on cutscenes. But KH2 isn't perfect as a lot of people believe, and I think Roxas' use is part of it. But no one will actually call out KH2 on it because it's perfect. I love KH2, but I can be unbiased about stuff in KH.
I see what your saying, and again on paper this sounds great. I just didn't like how the game executed it. It's fine now because post-KH2 games have corrected both Roxas and Organization XIII for me, so I can go back to KH2 and enjoy them there, even though I find them flawed when standing by themselves. I haven't even gotten into Roxas's relationships lol.

I don't want to give the impression that I hate KH2. I do like/love many aspects of the game. I think it's because it's put on the pedestal that it's on it's easier for me to nitpick it. Story wise KH2 has been hit the hardest with all the retcons and almost feels skippable without it's FM counterpart to carry it. But honestly I think it has just as many problems as KH3 does, even if some of those problems are different.
 

Deliverance

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
58
Awards
2
  • Cheeeeese!
  • Awakening
With the Axel thing, what they could have done was have him kidnap and guard Kairi, bond with her while guarding her, then help her try to escape. This would have given Kairi more agency in KH2
Having Axel help Kairi escape instead of doing it herself like she does in the game gives Kairi less agency, not more.
 

palizinhas

Active member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
283
Awards
24
  • Let's get Down to Business
  • Advanced Chain of Memories
  • Completionist
  • Look at This Stuff!
  • Bit-by-Bit
  • Key of Destiny
I wouldn't say Kairi escaped "by herself" even if we allow that Naminé was technically her (which isn't really true). As soon as she and Naminé left they were cornered by Saix and had to be saved by Riku.
 

Vulpes XIII

Active member
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Messages
149
Awards
8
Age
24
Location
Castle Oblivion
  • Vulpes Union
  • Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
  • Longest Night
  • Awakening
  • Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories
  • Kingdom Hearts
Since Larxene’s element is lightning how is it possible that she can build a entire labyrinth out of ice? I know she taught Roxas magic which could mean she knows how to use a little bit of other elements,same could be said for the other Organization XIII members as well. However considering that each member seem to focus on mastering one element I find it hard to believe that Larxene who focuses on thunder magic and claims that “ Ice is so not my style” is able to build a extremely detailed labyrinth that is just as detailed as Elsa’s Ice palace (from what I can see from the outside at least, seriously why couldn’t we explore the castle seems like a wasted opportunity in my opinion.)
 
Top