• Hello everybody! We have tons of new awards for the new year that can be requested through our Awards System thanks to Antifa Lockhart! Some are limited-time awards so go claim them before they are gone forever...

    CLICK HERE FOR AWARDS

Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance Volume II: The Search for More Money



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ronove

New member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
300
Age
31
I said a story can do more on a better system, which is true. I've never said a story IS inherently better by being on a more advanced system.

For example, Final Fantasy VI's story blows X's story out of the water, despite X being on a more advanced system. My argument is not so much about absolutes as it is about capacity and potential.
 

Chuman

Dad of Boy
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
12,681
Awards
44
Age
25
I said a story can do more on a better system, which is true. I've never said a story IS inherently better by being on a more advanced system.

For example, Final Fantasy VI's story blows X's story out of the water, despite X being on a more advanced system. My argument is not so much about absolutes as it is about capacity and potential.

No, a story is not hindered in any way by limited capacity. The gameplay, maybe, but not the story. A book's story isn't hindered because of graphical limitations, is it?
 

Ronove

New member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
300
Age
31
Books aren't a visual medium. Video games are. You're comparing apples and oranges.
 

siegleeagle

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
958
Location
Winchester, KY
Books aren't a visual medium. Video games are. You're comparing apples and oranges.

He has a point though. If a book can make you see a better story in your mind than a game (this has happened to me many times), then that is proof. A story is a story no matter what medium you encounter it in. The narrative can and will be whatever the writer wants it to be regardless of how its presented. The only difference is immersion. Actually seeing an event happen besides reading text about how it happened will affect the immersion which is what superior tech does but the tech does in no way improve a story it only helps present it in its own way.
 

Ronove

New member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
300
Age
31
A story is a story, sure. But a video game by it's very design tells a different type of story than a book does. When talking about Kingdom Hearts, a video game, we have to remember that the storyline in Kingdom Hearts is that of a video game. If that is the case, then more advanced graphics, processing power, and better tech is optimal. And it's not a question of need. I don't "need" contact lenses to paint a pretty picture. They sure help though.

And so that's why I'm saying we'd want a KH game to be on a more advanced system than a less advanced one. We get more options.

Why do you think so many people want an HD remake? Just ...cause? There is more we can be getting.
 

Epic_Finale722

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
55
Nobody is misunderstanding you; we just don't agree that a story is better based on the technical aspects of a console.
Having a firm belief that Chain of Memories has the best story in the Kingdom Hearts series, I'd have to agree with that. part of what makes it better is that it doesn't have the power to include many cutscenes, or any voice acting leaving quite a bit to the imagination. I never blame the quality of a game, or any individual facet of a game on the tech. If a twenty year old game is bad now it was bad 20 years ago too, no excuses. If the tech couldn't handle what the developer had in mind it's the developer's fault misusing the technology.
 

Epic_Finale722

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
55
Nobody is misunderstanding you; we just don't agree that a story is better based on the technical aspects of a console.
Having a firm belief that Chain of Memories has the best story in the Kingdom Hearts series, I'd have to agree with that. part of what makes it better is that it doesn't have the power to include many cutscenes, or any voice acting leaving quite a bit to the imagination. I never blame the quality of a game, or any individual facet of a game on the tech. If a twenty year old game is bad now it was bad 20 years ago too, no excuses. If the tech couldn't handle what the developer had in mind it's the developer's fault misusing the technology.
 

Gray Aria

The Misshapen Spark
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3,860
Awards
6
Age
32
Location
In the gray area
I said a story can do more on a better system, which is true. I've never said a story IS inherently better by being on a more advanced system.

For example, Final Fantasy VI's story blows X's story out of the water, despite X being on a more advanced system. My argument is not so much about absolutes as it is about capacity and potential.

We all understand what you are saying, Ronove, but that does not mean we have to agree. The quality of a story is determined by the writing, characters, and world of the story. Good developers can make a good story no matter the system the game is on. While better visuals can enhance storytelling, it really isn't all that necessary.
 

Odysseus

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
270
Location
Somewhere out there beneath the pale moonlight.
If a twenty year old game is bad now it was bad 20 years ago too, no excuses.

Meh, that's very debatable. 007 Goldeneye, the game to have next to Ocarina of Time on the N64, is terrible by today's standards. It's aged oh so poorly.

That's all control, though. What does the Vita have that the 3DS doesn't? A second analog stick? Well that's being remedied. Better graphics? Yes. But does that hinder the gameplay? No. Not one bit. Saying you'd prefer the next KH game to be on the Vita rather than the 3DS can't really apply to gameplay. They're capable of delivering the same thing, the only difference is perhaps using their different touch and/or dual-screen mechanics, but then again, that's not "higher tech," now is it? Just different tech.

And I'll say it again, just like everyone else has, story is story. Technological limitations have absolutely no bearing on it. How it is presented, yes, but that's not how the story is told, per se.

I can understand where you're coming from in terms of gameplay (I don't agree, but I see where you're coming from), but story? No. I see no reason why you think what you're saying makes sense, I'm sorry.
 

Epic_Finale722

New member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
55
Meh, that's very debatable. 007 Goldeneye, the game to have next to Ocarina of Time on the N64, is terrible by today's standards. It's aged oh so poorly.

That's all control, though.

Exactly, control issues it shouldn't have had in the first place if it really was a good game.
 

Odysseus

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
270
Location
Somewhere out there beneath the pale moonlight.
Exactly, control issues it shouldn't have had in the first place if it really was a good game.

You need to understand that at the time, dual analog sticks were not introduced (well PS1, but weren't used), so for consoles, FPSs were hard to pull off, and Goldeneye really nailed it. Lots of fun back in the day.

Then dual analog sticks came out and redefined how to make a console FPS. Suddenly Goldeneye wasn't so good anymore, because it controlled awkwardly compared to how we're now used to playing.

Was great before dual analog, not so great afterward. It's called "aging." Eventually, something's going to come along and redefine how we play a specific type of game, and when it does, the old way will feel obsolete. Nothing embodies this more than the history of the console FPS.

It doesn't mean Goldeneye was never good, of course it was. Are you saying back in the late 90s it wasn't a good game because it didn't stack up to technology that wasn't even utilized at the time? That's nonsense.

Anyway, we're off-topic...
 

Ikkin

Bronze Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
1,517
That's all control, though. What does the Vita have that the 3DS doesn't? A second analog stick? Well that's being remedied. Better graphics? Yes. But does that hinder the gameplay? No. Not one bit. Saying you'd prefer the next KH game to be on the Vita rather than the 3DS can't really apply to gameplay. They're capable of delivering the same thing, the only difference is perhaps using their different touch and/or dual-screen mechanics, but then again, that's not "higher tech," now is it? Just different tech.

I think you're underselling the difference between the alternate touch screen technologies chosen by Nintendo and Sony.

Nintendo chose to create a two-screen console, with only the secondary (smaller, non-3D) screen being touch-capable. This means that touch mechanics must be either decoupled from the action, or applied to a temporary copy of the action on the lower screen rather than the main screen (this is why Reality Shift works by having Sora dive into the bottom screen). To complicate this further, the touch screen only understands one touch at a time, which limits its uses somewhat.

Sony chose to give Vita only one screen, but that single main screen is touch-enabled, so touching objects on the screen is more immediate. The screen is multi-touch enabled as well, which offers possibilities of interaction that don't exist on the 3DS (like targeting multiple areas at the same time with special attacks), and there's a second multi-touch screen on the back that can add even more functionality. The additional gameplay possibilities might not be as obvious as, say, those of a second analog stick, but they're certainly there -- imagine using simple gestures on the back to command your allies without taking your hands off the main controls, or having an always-on option to immediately target far-off enemies (like, say, those irksome Mandrakes in Birth by Sleep) by tapping them on the front screen.

And that's not even getting into the fact that differences in processing power need not only be used to improve the looks of what would have been on the screen anyway. Moving up to a more-advanced system could also allow to put more stuff on the screen overall -- more NPCs, more allies, more enemies, more props to interact with, more-connected worlds.


And I'll say it again, just like everyone else has, story is story. Technological limitations have absolutely no bearing on it. How it is presented, yes, but that's not how the story is told, per se.

I can understand where you're coming from in terms of gameplay (I don't agree, but I see where you're coming from), but story? No. I see no reason why you think what you're saying makes sense, I'm sorry.

The thing is, story-as-story is always filtered through the way it's presented, and that can have a rather enormous effect on how that story is perceived. Broken suspension of disbelief, for example, can make a story seem far worse even if it was broken by a failure of presentation rather than a failure of the story on its own terms. As technology can easily allow for fuller suspension of disbelief, it stands to reason that it's not that improbably for one to feel that the story is better for its ability to avoid blatantly low-tech effects.
 

billyzanesucks

New member
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
901
I'm not sure what you mean by gameplay. The 3DS has more control options especially if you include the extension:

- Two screens
- Gyroscope
- Trigger buttons

In all other ways, they have the same controls, though different placement. Better graphics does not greatly affect gameplay. Having never had an HD KH game, I don't really care about it that much. Gamecube/PS2 graphics plus 3D is just as good for me.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Why do you think so many people want an HD remake? Just ...cause? There is more we can be getting.

Remember the earlier discussion?
Many people also want that so they can play all the older games on the newer systems without having to keep the older ones so they can experience the story as complete as possible.
Graphics only come as a secondary concern.

KH is a series with a connected story, spreading it out too far hampers the ability to experience it fully, that can't be denied. So for example a HD-remake of KH 1 and 2 (possibly with Final Mix content) + maybe even BBS can bring the most important things together in one place, that is the most important issue, graphical improvement only comes after that and such stuff as trophies are just unneccessary gimmicks not really important.

And nope, the type of story KH tells can also be very well done in a book if not even better. As a book allows more details on every front it creates an overall better picture than a film or game ever could because it allows imagination to fly more freely and wide.

Why do you think that i.e. despite the Lord of the Rings-films being very good and also acknowledged many people still prefer the book-form?
 

Ronove

New member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
300
Age
31
Oh come now, you know as well as I do that people will call shenanigans if the collection isn't in HD. And that book idea simply isn't true, the very structure of Kingdom Hearts requires a game set up.

That's why people rejoiced when in Final Mix the Roxas cutscene became a fight. Because this medium is a game, and it works best as a game.

I'll turn your own Lord of the Rings point against you. Lord of the Rings was conceptualized as a book first and thus is better read in Book form. But Kingdom Hearts was always designed as a game first.

That's why people prefer Kingdom Hearts the video game to Kingdom Hearts the manga, and its also why people prefer Birth By Sleep the game to Birth By Sleep the light novels, with some minor exceptions of course.

Apples and Oranges, you see.
 

Sephiroth0812

Guardian of Light
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
10,531
Awards
37
Location
Germany
Oh come now, you know as well as I do that people will call shenanigans if the collection isn't in HD. And that book idea simply isn't true, the very structure of Kingdom Hearts requires a game set up.
That depends really on the target audience, I would surely get a new KH-edition when it contains the FM-content, but graphics are surely least concern.
If they would just bring out normal KH1 and KH2 with some graphic improvement I would not invest one Euro in it.
The so-called "very structure" of KH is very easily transferable into a book and can be fleshed out better than any game could, just because you aren't hindered by gameplay then.

That's why people rejoiced when in Final Mix the Roxas cutscene became a fight. Because this medium is a game, and it works best as a game.

I'll turn your own Lord of the Rings point against you. Lord of the Rings was conceptualized as a book first and thus is better read in Book form. But Kingdom Hearts was always designed as a game first.

That's why people prefer Kingdom Hearts the video game to Kingdom Hearts the manga, and its also why people prefer Birth By Sleep the game to Birth By Sleep the light novels, with some minor exceptions of course.

Apples and Oranges, you see.

On that it's simply a matter of different viewpoints, I didn't need to actually play it as a fight to feel the sheer intensity of what was happening.
The additional new cutscenes in the Final Mix added much more depth than any playable fight.

I don't know who you mean with "people", but I would not dare to generalize it to all (though I assume you just forgot the "many" ;P ).

The manga is a different pair of shoes because it is meant to be lighthearted comedy. but on the novels you're quite mistaken.
Many people are pretty eager to get their hands on the novels if they would only be released outside of Japan.

But I clearly see we're placing our priorities on completely different ends of the scale, so let's just say we disagree and get over with it.
;)
 

Odysseus

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
270
Location
Somewhere out there beneath the pale moonlight.
Oh come now, you know as well as I do that people will call shenanigans if the collection isn't in HD.

They'll call shenanigans because every other collection from the past is in HD.

An HD spit-shine does bonk-all in terms of graphics, and a lot of people don't realize this. Some dull corners are sharpened, that's about it. I can hardly tell the difference.

I'll bet you any amount of money that 50% of the people who buy the Team ICO HD Collection/Silent Hill HD Collection will complain about how it looks the same (if they haven't done so already by looking at footage), and another 20% will try to convince themselves that it looks better, knowing full-well it looks hardly different.

When people think "HD", they tend to think it'll look on-par with titles like Final Fantasy XIII, and the developers know this, which is why they release it in HD. It's why I'm semi-against HD rereleases.
 

NotaHero21

New member
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
507
Age
31
Location
Where love does not reach
I'll bet you any amount of money that 50% of the people who buy the Team ICO HD Collection/Silent Hill HD Collection will complain about how it looks the same (if they haven't done so already by looking at footage), and another 20% will try to convince themselves that it looks better, knowing full-well it looks hardly different.

Your quite incorrect about this just so you know.

Also its nice to see this sites community is as opinionated and ignorant as ever.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top