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Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Retrospective



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Hirokey123

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I mean I don't think The Grid is setting up for a sequel, The grid's plot is a result of them taking the plot meant for Riku and breaking it up into a plot for Sora and Riku while they scrap whatever they had planned for Sora almost entirely. Rinzler was supposed to be Riku's boss not Sora's which explains a lot about that boss's enemy design.

Thing is I don't know if we can even say Stitch ever made it to Hawaii, after all he already had Hawaii themes and what not in BBS with his D-link so they might of just made that part of his character. It's quite possible Stitch just landed in Radiant Garden and never left you know? Though given the Japanese Lilo & Stitch series was actually a like what nearly 20 year sequel to the Lilo & stitch cartoon and stitch hadn't aged at all...I think BBS can be forgiven if they want to say Stitch has been wandering the universe for 10+ years especially when 10+ years isn't actually 10+ years but some kind of weird variable timeframe based on which world one is in.
 

Blackdrazon

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That's a good point about the variable time frames! Who even knows?
 

palizinhas

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The main issue with the idea that Stitch never got to Hawaii is that he's named Stitch in KH2, and Lilo was the one who gave him that name. BBS goes out of its way to call him 626 even on his D-Link, so I don't think he'd be called Stitch if he hadn't met Lilo if Deep Space made sure not to do that.
 

The Dark Mamba

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I was just under the impression that after BBS, Stitch(still as 626) then got to Hawaii sometime after and went through his Lilo & Stitch adventure during that period and then that world fell to darkness during KH1, then world got restored afterwards and then he showed up in Radiant Garden in KH2 because he's Stitch and he likes to f#%k around.

I think it should be noted that his appearance in KH2 was likely made without clear thought that is backstory would be explored in BBS.
 

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You know, reading the past update with reference to Eraqus being an overprotective parent cliché, it reminded me of how I always thought not using Atlantica was a missed opportunity to explain how Triton knows about Keyblade wielders and how Atlantica would’ve made much more sense thematically for BbS than the Coliseum considering all the parallels between Triton-child!Ariel-Ursula and Eraqus-TAV-Xehanort. Triton lying about the human world and taking his protective behavior far, far over the line into immorality (being pissed at Ariel for saving a human’s life) would relate with both Ven’s and Aqua’s storylines; Ven having to deal with a father figure who is cruel and deceitful in his attempts to protect him, and Aqua having to recognize that Eraqus has taken his obsession with the Light into dark territory (and realizing she shouldn’t emulate him). Triton’s hatred for humans could also be compared to Eraqus’ hatred for Darkness in general and how that’s affected Terra, and Ursula—whose key characteristic is manipulation—taking advantage of Terra would make more sense than him being played like a fool by miscellaneous other Disney villains, tbh. But KH tends to lose the nuances of the Disney characters, and the villains all acting the same is one of those moments. Triton even wields a rare weapon similar to the Keyblade!

Another Disney world that would've made sense with this game is Hunchback of Notre Dame (Frollo-Eraqus, Phoebus-Aqua, Quasi-Ventus). Or Frozen (Elsa-Terra), if it had existed then.

I always thought using a random symbol that is pronounced the same as key was a bit stupid myself.
 

Blackdrazon

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Heck, I'd play it. Good comparisons!

I suppose there's still time for Elsa-Terra, if they wanted to go that way?
 

FudgemintGuardian

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Can't wait for next time, when we witness Aqua's ability to read the subtitles....

Ya know, something I find amusing lately is now with KHUX, the "X" in its title is pronounced "cross", which makes me wonder if Nomura is trying to "fix" the X-Blade debacle by eventually revealing that "cross" is the proper pronunciation. Or, funnier yet, the "X" actually means nothing at all and was intended to denote "insert word here" (like " __-Blade").
 

Blackdrazon

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Or, funnier yet, the "X" actually means nothing at all and was intended to denote "insert word here" (like " __-Blade").

KHX = Kingdom Hearts Beyblade. Xehanort points dramatically across the Beyblade Graveyard, shouting "Let it Rip!"
 

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Actually something to note about "Cross" is it's a different font. See while the "X" in X-blade looks like an X it also has some subtle differences from one in the fact that the lines are of a different thickness, one is thick the other is thin. This is a consistent element of the letter Chi if you look up any image of it you'll always see the thickness of the lines is one thick and one thin, the symbol in Xehanort's hand keeps in line with that, and even the logo for Kingdom Hearts X keeps in line with that. However For Kingdom Hearts: Union Cross it's an actual cross, you can tell because the thickness of the lines are equal. So it's actually an entire different letter/symbol that merely visually implies a connection.

Anyway I respect what Nomura was trying to do with the X-blade. The whole idea was for keyblades to be imitations of the X-blade and so their name was supposed to be an imitation as well, I think that's a great bit of lore and especially believable for a weapon so old. I just personally would have after establishing that brought up that Kye is the PROPER way to pronounce it, that way you get the idea across without the confusion.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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KHX = Kingdom Hearts Beyblade. Xehanort points dramatically across the Beyblade Graveyard, shouting "Let it Rip!"
XD

Actually something to note about "Cross" is it's a different font. See while the "X" in X-blade looks like an X it also has some subtle differences from one in the fact that the lines are of a different thickness, one is thick the other is thin. This is a consistent element of the letter Chi if you look up any image of it you'll always see the thickness of the lines is one thick and one thin, the symbol in Xehanort's hand keeps in line with that, and even the logo for Kingdom Hearts X keeps in line with that. However For Kingdom Hearts: Union Cross it's an actual cross, you can tell because the thickness of the lines are equal. So it's actually an entire different letter/symbol that merely visually implies a connection.
Wait, it is?
Kingdom_Hearts_X_logo.png
kingdom-hearts-union-chi-logo.png


Well I'll be, it is.
 

Blackdrazon

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Yikes, I hadn't noticed that either, very interesting!
 

Hirokey123

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Man reading your entry on the keyblade graveyard just makes me mad, not at you but at the game. The keyblade graveyard was such a disappointing final world and every KH game before and after BBS, even Coded, knew how to make a good final world. You know in the multiplayer there are arenas based on the different worlds one is based on the keyblade graveyard and that single room is far more engaging than the entire KG was as a whole. I really wish we could have gotten more than 3 rooms of flat waste land, just do it like EotW in KH1 that was a wasteland world but still with all kinds of cool platforming. I will be forever scarred by the wasted potential of this world and it's doubly wasted because it actually damages the story a bit when you consider TAV come from separate directions.

Aqua's line to Terra makes sense she is basically rightfully trying to get him to think about the consequences of his actions and more importantly that ISN'T a hypothetical. At this point to her it's not a matter of "if" Terra will go astray it's only a matter of "when" as she has completely lost faith in him. She is basically saying "You killed our master and you will go astray when you fight Xehanort, tell me Terra what reason do you have to believe things will be different, what reason do you have to believe you're not just going to defile Eraqus's memory."

When he says keyblades of light and darkness he's talking about the hearts aligned with them, not keyblades from the realm of darkness but keyblades being used by people whose hearts had been consumed by darkness or more specifically things like greed and lust. I also want to say it is really annoying this is literally the only time in the entire game Braig and Ven see one another, Days built it up to be so much more meaningful. Likewise the battle the follows is part of the reason I dislike Ventus, all he had to do was defend Aqua not actually fight Vanitas. I think at this point was when I realized Ventus has done nearly nothing all game but cause problems for his friends and make things worse, and I really don't think that single gesture at the end he does makes up for it by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh and you're sorta incorrect on the face thing. Vanitas has Sora's face it's not the other way around. In Nomura's own words when Sora connected to Ventus where Vanitas was still connected to that affected Vanitas making him look like Sora. Sora wasn't affect it was Vanitas who was affected.

How did you decide on the design for their faces?

Well Terra’s look was already a decided thing, we just had to make him look a bit younger. I knew that Ventus should look either like Sora or Roxas, and I wasn’t sure which one to go with, but I thought Vanitas looking like Sora would have a bigger impact so I had Ventus look like Roxas instead. And there is a reason that Vanitas looks like Sora. As Sora filled in Ventus’s fractured heart, the fractured part (Vanitas) was affected by Sora and ended up with Sora’s face. So if it had been Riku who had filled in Ventus’s heart, Vanitas would have looked like Riku.

I mean the other way would make more sense but sadly that is not the case, Vanitas got Sora's face aged up to fit his current body's age which was probably around 15. Also I never got the sense Vanitas was losing, from the sound of his dialogue in the transition it sounds like he was just toying with Ventus and then got bored and was ready to just fully absorb him. Represented by him smashing the heart station and getting ready to go nuts on him with his powers. What he didn't account for was that Aqua had given Ventus a good luck charm that lets him borrow the powers of people who connect to his heart even if that connection is forceful. In fact I'll give BBS credit to this, since they intended for Terra to be the first story it's nice that they foreshadowed in his story that you can get D-links from people forcibly connecting to your heart. I thought that was a clever/under appreciated bit of foreshadowing likewise the D-link thing with Ventus was a really great way to answer that question Ventus posed to Aqua at the start of the game "So this isn't a real good luck charm? Well that remains to be seen but I did work a little magic on it".
 

Blackdrazon

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Thanks for the quote, Hirokey, I'll correct that. Nomura, Nomura...
 

Hirokey123

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Honestly I give Terra a pass for leaving Enchanted Dominion when he did. Maleficent quite effortlessly turned him into her puppet. So if he goes near her again it's likely the same thing will happen because Terra frankly sucks when it comes to using or controlling darkness. Terra is probably quite literally powerless against Maleficent's powers to whisper to the darkness inside him. So his logic of "I'll get better at controlling darkness then come back" actually is pretty sound reasoning. Anyway this is IMO probably Terra's best world in terms of plot which is a sad thing to say but past this world suddenly Terra will start spouting awkward lines, withholding information for no good reason, run out of good reasons either be in a world or leave a world, and honestly it just kinda feels like his story completely fall apart.
 
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I like how you just go straight from the forest to the castle courtyard, skipping over the entire town. It's even more awkward in Aqua's story, where the Duke refers to the Tremaine's chateau as the "closest residence" to the castle when they actually live all the way on the other side of the town! I guess the devs had to find a way to condense the plot of Cinderella into one night.
 

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I actually thought the thing with Lady Tremaine calling the unversed is perfectly clear. One second we are hearing the jealous trio and next second unversed are beginning to crop up in the balcony. I don't think this was a conscious effort on her part though more like Days case of heartless being called by the darkness in Hook's heart, here the jealousy of Tremaine and the sisters is calling the unversed to flock. While Terra is busy going through the hallway the big one showed up. Likewise I'm pretty certain Terra isn't being drained, he's suffering a headache because you know it's music the attack is sound based in addition to evil vague energy. I'm also pretty certain Terra didn't warp he just moved out of the way at the last second when the blast was obscuring the vision. I'm also surprised you didn't make a comment on how Terra asks if Aqua still has the same dream, which never really makes sense because by the time of being asked that Aqua had achieved that dream.

Oh and don't diss the illusion commands you might think they are horrible but the fact is you are COMPLETELY invincible for the duration of the command as a result a deck of illusion commands is actually the easiest method to cheese any boss in this game. My friend defeated a number of the secret bosses with nothing but mindlessly spamming illusion commands...like she didn't even have to try to dodge or time her attacks it was just spam the commands. It's actually really boring to watch though...
 

Blackdrazon

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Huh, yeah, that's a pretty fair strategy. I do later credit Illusion-R, the Ringer, as a means of bypassing Vantias Remnant's "heal when you heal" trick, but it didn't occur to me to simply cheese through the bosses with the attacks? I have no excuses, either, except that it does sound super boring.
 

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I'm also surprised you didn't make a comment on how Terra asks if Aqua still has the same dream, which never really makes sense because by the time of being asked that Aqua had achieved that dream.
I always assumed that the "dream" Terra was talking about was something else. Something like both of them passing their Mark of Mastery.
 

Hirokey123

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This one had me cracking up. However I will say you don't even need air slide to reach that fission firaga, all you need is jump and a sliding dash command which is easy enough. You just jump then slide onto the wall, jump on the arch, and siding dash to the chest. Stupidly easy to get and then you can have it for that pitiful Unversed fight in the glade. Anyway I really have to say it's moments like Terra completely neglecting to check on Snow White is SOOOOO bad. Like this isn't even a minor mistake or anything as he was specifically told his task is to take out the Unversed to protect the princesses of heart. Snow White is a princess of heart, he knows this, and still he just leaves her to the wilds. >_>

Anyway I'm going to speak in theory mode for a moment on the mirror stuff but I feel pretty confident what I'm about to say.

Spoiler Spoiler Show


But then they changed the stuff about Vanitas shortly after and most scenes were able to be left alone and still make sense with the changes, but the Mirror one which they had to patch out after the fact. In the process forgetting to update the journal to reflect the change in scene.
 

Blackdrazon

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