KHMoM ending is the true KH3 ending (or why we need a KH3 Final Mix+)

[AegisXIII]

Okay, so I have finally completed MoM and I loved every minute of it. The story we got in the end was everything I wanted since the ending of kh3 with some of my questions answered. And that's where it hit me: KH MoM ending feels like the true KH3 epilogue.

I am very critical when it comes to narrative structure. For me, it is very important that a title has a narrative development that feels coherent WITHIN THE SAME TITLE. And that's the problem I have with KH3.

If you look at all previous titles, kh1, kh2, com, days, bbs, DDD and even re:coded: they were all one story with a beginning, a middle and an end that allows to foresee what will come next while giving a good feeling of completion. At the end of each title, you realize that the narrative arc of the characters is done for the moment and that each one of these characters has learned something which will allow them to grow as an individual in the future.

I have the feeling that KH3 is a frankenstein monster where each narrative progress has been cut and spread into multiple titles.

Spoiler Show

• the beginning is 0.2 where the ending cutscene is the intro of kh3
• kh3 has no beginning and ends abruptly with the viewer having absolutely no idea what just happened (look at all the streams on twitch, youtube)
• Remind starts to give the answer that you need
• Finally MoM concludes the narrative arc

If you ask me, 0.2, KH3, ReMind and MoM are all part of the same narrative structure, which is: discovering what the power of waking is in order to save the guardians and defeat xehanort. You cannot have the consequences if misusing this power explained in another title, otherwise it could be labelled as a plothole or a retcon, which is considered as: BAD WRITING. It might not be the best written series of all time, but the format make it look so much worse than it actually is.

If you ask me, I think they had all of that planned for KH3 but because of time constraints (and need for some money to make the shareholders happy), they choose to release the story episodically. Yes I said it: Kh3 was released episodically. And that's a huge problem that needs to be fixed for the legacy of the serie.

I strongly believe that they should definitely go for a KH3 Final Mix + on PS5 (call it like you want, kh3.5 maybe?), where everything related to the story of kh3 belongs to the SAME TITLE.

Spoiler Show

• 0.2 is part of the main campaign and you play aqua the same way that you play roxas at the beginning of kh2
• the base game is the same
• remind is unlocked after the main game
• limit cut and melody of memory are unlocked in parallel after you beat remind (each representing one key to find Sora)
• secret episode that you get after beating limit cut
• and finally, the epilogue of MoM is unlocked after you beat both limit cut and melody of memory (representing the final key to find Sora)

All of this with one save, representing one narrative development. I think doing something like this could greatly improve the widespread feeling that Kingdom hearts is messy and poorly written (it is, but not for this specific reason, lol).

What do you think? Sorry if it was a bit long, but this has been bugging me since the release of KH3. Now I feel that all the pieces exist and are ready to be fused into one cohesive manner.

 

[Katsagu]

I don't agree with the whole premise of the thread. Saying KH3 doesn't "end" is like saying KH2 does not end because we don't know what is in the letter Sora receives.

The narrative of KH3 is that of the final confrontation with xehanort. It begins with sora leaving to learn about the power of waking so he is able to bring back the needed keyblade wielders for that confrontation. In the "middle", that in this game is badly positioned I agree, all the needed seekers of light are reunited, the end is the final confrontation that the game (and saga) has been building up to. It ends with sora disappearing as the sequel plot hook.

Now these are all the basic plot points, the way they're handled is another point entirely, but the structure is there.

The secret ending of 0.2 is like the second cutscene of KH3, and it is a direct follow-up to DDD's ending. Playing 0.2 is wholy unnecessary in the grand scheme of things, sure it would make a good intro to KH3, but adding it is not a necessity in my mind.

I agree Re:Mind should be part of the main game. And it technically is with the combo of KH3 + Re:Mind acting as a "Final Mix" of sorts to flesh the very ending of KH3 and how Sora achieved bringing back Kairi. Note though that prety much everything explained in ReMind was already heavily theorized or understood by the fanbase, so the base game does not do as much of a bad job explaining it as you're representing.

I would argue, everything after Re:Mind, and I'm talking about Limit Cut, Secret Episode and MoM, feels almost like a mini sequel, and in my opinion these things should not have been part of KH3 at all, but of the next game that deals with finding sora, because finding him is not KH3's narrative arc.

In my opinion, and a giant problem I'm seing in KH can be summed up by this: MoM having story significance, and of such magnitude, so much it teases possibly 3 sequels and a brand new term (the fictional worlds) that is very important to the future of KH is in my opinion the second biggest mistake SE has done with KH as a whole.

The 1st was the mobile games and now this. The problem is with splitting the IMPORTANT story over all these minimal games. For example, Dark Road can't be only a look at Xehanort's past, NO, it has to connect to whatever mickey is going to do going forward.

I feel this is the problem that is creating that Frankestein feeling you're talking about, and I believe it is something that should stop.

 

[astertide]

Definitely KH3 and ReMind together. MoM could be there as well, or maybe bundled with the next game. But I disagree with 0.2. If KH3 and ReMind are "Part 1" and "Part 2," then 0.2 is like the "Holiday Special."

 

[AegisXIII]

I don't agree with the whole premise of the thread. Saying KH3 doesn't "end" is like saying KH2 does not end because we don't know what is in the letter Sora receives.

The narrative of KH3 is that of the final confrontation with xehanort. It begins with sora leaving to learn about the power of waking so he is able to bring back the needed keyblade wielders for that confrontation. In the "middle", that in this game is badly positioned I agree, all the needed seekers of light are reunited, the end is the final confrontation that the game (and saga) has been building up to. It ends with sora disappearing as the sequel plot hook.

Now these are all the basic plot points, the way they're handled is another point entirely, but the structure is there.

The secret ending of 0.2 is like the second cutscene of KH3, and it is a direct follow-up to DDD's ending. Playing 0.2 is wholy unnecessary in the grand scheme of things, sure it would make a good intro to KH3, but adding it is not a necessity in my mind.

I agree Re:Mind should be part of the main game. And it technically is with the combo of KH3 + Re:Mind acting as a "Final Mix" of sorts to flesh the very ending of KH3 and how Sora achieved bringing back Kairi. Note though that prety much everything explained in ReMind was already heavily theorized or understood by the fanbase, so the base game does not do as much of a bad job explaining it as you're representing.

I would argue, everything after Re:Mind, and I'm talking about Limit Cut, Secret Episode and MoM, feels almost like a mini sequel, and in my opinion these things should not have been part of KH3 at all, but of the next game that deals with finding sora, because finding him is not KH3's narrative arc.

In my opinion, and a giant problem I'm seing in KH can be summed up by this: MoM having story significance, and of such magnitude, so much it teases possibly 3 sequels and a brand new term (the fictional worlds) that is very important to the future of KH is in my opinion the second biggest mistake SE has done with KH as a whole.

The 1st was the mobile games and now this. The problem is with splitting the IMPORTANT story over all these minimal games. For example, Dark Road can't be only a look at Xehanort's past, NO, it has to connect to whatever mickey is going to do going forward.

I feel this is the problem that is creating that Frankestein feeling you're talking about, and I believe it is something that should stop.

Thanks for your detailed answer. I think you are right on the fact that searching for Sora could have been another game. However, as an epilogue, it works quite well, especially since they develop on nameless star, yozora and the future of the serie. With all the information we have right now, it is mysterious, but not confusing like it used to be (at least in my point of view).
At the end of kh3 I was afraid they had no idea what they were doing. Now I know they have a plan, which is why I prefer to see it as an epilogue of kh3.

I disagree however on 0.2. The fact to see Aqua lost and confused in the realm of darkness gives us a proper beginning. Searching for Aqua is the main focus of Riku and the King and showing how Mickey got the keyblade of darkness that allows them to go there is a good way to start the adventure. Not to mention that the beginning scene of kh3 (in yensid tower) is like a recap, with half of the stuff missing. It clearly screams: cut content and it really confused me. The only reason 0.2 is not in kh3 is because they couldn't sell DDD remastered alone. And I think Nomura mentioned that it was meant to be the beginning. Imagine if the intro with Roxas had been in a separate game sold with chain of memories. Then kh2 starts with Sora's pod opening. That would have been terrible on the narration perspective as Roxas story is tight with kh2 story. Same with Aqua here in my opinion.

Now with the fact to put relevant scenario content in MoM, I agree it feels odd. But if you think about it, clearing the main story takes 5-6 hours, which is the exact same amount you need for the limit cut bosses, so I do not see this as a problem. That's why I think they could be unlocked in parallel as one is focused on riku's search and one on kairi's search.
Then, when they are both complete, you get the epilogue with fairy godmother and nameless star, etc.
Done like this, I think it would be amazing and a great conclusion for the whole dark seeker saga. MoM is a great love letters for the fans and a clear separation. They literally say that they will go on unknown territory starting from now. The perfect way to end and tease the future.

I understand why they did it though. Otherwise KH3 would have been released in 2020 which would have been impossible. But in the past, they always managed to tell the story they wanted by releasing the final mix version years later. I am really curious to see how they are gonna fix this mess this time, because they used 3 games to tell one story. Like the hobbit movies.

 

[Katsagu]

Thanks for your detailed answer. I think you are right on the fact that searching for Sora could have been another game. However, as an epilogue, it works quite well, especially since they develop on nameless star, yozora and the future of the serie. With all the information we have right now, it is mysterious, but not confusing like it used to be (at least in my point of view).
At the end of kh3 I was afraid they had no idea what they were doing. Now I know they have a plan, which is why I prefer to see it as an epilogue of kh3.

I disagree however on 0.2. The fact to see Aqua lost and confused in the realm of darkness gives us a proper beginning. Searching for Aqua is the main focus of Riku and the King and showing how Mickey got the keyblade of darkness that allows them to go there is a good way to start the adventure. Not to mention that the beginning scene of kh3 (in yensid tower) is like a recap, with half of the stuff missing. It clearly screams: cut content and it really confused me. The only reason 0.2 is not in kh3 is because they couldn't sell DDD remastered alone. And I think Nomura mentioned that it was meant to be the beginning. Imagine if the intro with Roxas had been in a separate game sold with chain of memories. Then kh2 starts with Sora's pod opening. That would have been terrible on the narration perspective as Roxas story is tight with kh2 story. Same with Aqua here in my opinion.

Now with the fact to put relevant scenario content in MoM, I agree it feels odd. But if you think about it, clearing the main story takes 5-6 hours, which is the exact same amount you need for the limit cut bosses, so I do not see this as a problem. That's why I think they could be unlocked in parallel as one is focused on riku's search and one on kairi's search.
Then, when they are both complete, you get the epilogue with fairy godmother and nameless star, etc.
Done like this, I think it would be amazing and a great conclusion for the whole dark seeker saga. MoM is a great love letters for the fans and a clear separation. They literally say that they will go on unknown territory starting from now. The perfect way to end and tease the future.

I understand why they did it though. Otherwise KH3 would have been released in 2020 which would have been impossible. But in the past, they always managed to tell the story they wanted by releasing the final mix version years later. I am really curious to see how they are gonna fix this mess this time, because they used 3 games to tell one story. Like the hobbit movies.

At the end of the day I agree with you. I believe all these bits and pieces of story should not have been separated and should have been in one product.

What I didn't agree completely is that KH3 base, narratively didn't complete what it set out to do. Remember, all of these things you mentioned here (the nameless star, yozora and other stuff) are all sequel plot hooks to get you invested in the mistery of it for you to get interested in the next game of the series, I believe having it be misterious was exactly the point, they were not supposed to be handled in this game but in the future.

My point about 0.2 is that, in itself, what happens as a whole in it is not that relevant for KH3's story, sure we find out what aqua had been doing all along, but not much was added that we could not understand from BBS, apart from the final cutscenes that add relevant context to kh3's beginning. But yeah, it would have worked better as a prologue to the game for sure, not defending it should have stayed a solo 3 hour experience at all in the DDD re-release.

 

[Face My Fears]

Honestly, I felt like MoM should have been a part of the ReMIND package - mostly because I don't think it's justified to be a $60 game or a standalone game. However, the cutscenes should have been separate from ReMIND... so I guess I don't know what I really want MoM to be.

I disagree that KH3 didn't have a true start or ending, the start was very quick but we already knew what Sora had to do. If 0.2 was the KH3 intro/tutorial, it would have been way less connected than the Roxas tutorial that casual players complain about all the time from KH2. Seeing Aqua's life from BbS-KH1 is a nice side game, but if you threw that into KH3 the way it is right now, it would really make it more fragmented. To go from being Aqua heavy to barely seeing her would be weird. Unlike Roxas who does disappear for the majority of the game, Aqua isn't the backbone of the plot like Roxas was. She certainly wasn't treated that way in KH3.

KH3 also has a very coherent ending to me. Just because we have no idea where Sora went doesn't mean there was no ending. They killed Xehanort and Sora sacrificed himself to save Kairi. They completed their goal and saved the worlds from Xehanort's ultimate plan. If the MoM stuff got thrown into KH3, it would actually regress from being "teaser" to "incoherent ending" since it's showing all of this information post-Sora's death. Ending on the plan of action to find Sora is a nice teaser for the next games. Ending on Kairi searching her memories and Riku going off to Quadratum moves away from the completed goal of "kill Xehanort" and blurs the line between what KH3 actually is about.

I would definitely want them all bundled together, as separate titles, but to have 0.2 and MoM combined into the narrative of KH3 would take away from playing KH3 itself.

 

[Elysium]

As long as KH3's DLC is on the disc and not "included" as a code like FFXV: Royal Edition, hell yes.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I definitely think they need to at least have a KH3 + ReMind + MOM package

KH3 & ReMind on one disk and MOM on another.

 

[Chaser]

I definitely think they need to at least have a KH3 + ReMind + MOM package

KH3 & ReMind on one disk and MOM on another.

They can fit it all onto one disc if they have it on the PS5

 

[Launchpad]

KH3RM ends perfectly, ending the saga with the same line of dialogue it starts with. I would fight anyone to keep it that way... Even KHinsider NERDS!

 

[SuperNova]

I feel like if they re-release KH3 on PS5 that it should naturally include KH3RM since that was intended as its "Final Mix." While MoM acts off of the ending of KH3 and KH3RM it doesn't really feel like its a piece of that. KH3RM takes place immediately after KH3 and explains what Sora did to bring Kairi back. Kairi working to find Sora is a sequel hook plain and simple.

 

[astertide]

MoM story-wise could fit with KH3 and ReMind. But MoM's gameplay is too different and seems out-of-place next to the other two.

 

[Henryp]

More than a FM, I think it can bundle together as 3.5 for PS5.

I do think KH3 ends on a conclusive note on the storyline the game wanted to tell. Everything that surrounds the storyline of ReMind and MoM is a continuation on the sequel baits. I think both scenarios were written in parallel. So in a sense, having all three together would serve as a "KH3 and hints on what is coming after".

I also believe, seeing everything they have put put in the past year, that this is the new method of marketing they are following. Instead of waiting 2-3 years for the next installment, they are realising crumbs of plot here and there to keep the expectation going. I don't mind this as long as we get full games eventually and what is release in between is something fun like MoM. But I cant keep buying 60+€ games if they are not compelling gameplay wise and gives only an hour of storyline. Thats my problem with UX/DR, I don't find the gameplay compelling for the small tidbits of story that we get.

I guess what Im trying to say is that we may have to get use on getting small crumbs of storyline without thinking it is cut content of a game.

 

[Recon]

I voted no. We don’t need a bundle every time a new game comes out frankly. And while MoM does have some story connection to KH3, the games are just different where it wouldn’t make sense to me.

 

[maximumlight8]

I'd rather a PS5 patch then a whole new release. This isn't like the PS4 where PS3 games were not able to work on it.

It's not to me an as big upgrade as the HD collections were. Remember, none of the KH games at the time were put on 1080p 60fps/ 4k 60fps.

 

[SuperSaiyanSora]

But I cant keep buying 60+€ games if they are not compelling gameplay wise and gives only an hour of storyline. Thats my problem with UX/DR, I don't find the gameplay compelling for the small tidbits of story that we get.

I mean to be fair, Nomura and Square have said that the story in MoM was going to be minimal -- the whole point was the rhythm game aspect. The rhythm game elements in itself is absolutely worth the money, but if you're buying it for the story, then no. But, if you're not a rhythm game fan at all, that's why you can always just watch the cutscenes on youtube and save the money.

I voted no. We don’t need a bundle every time a new game comes out frankly. And while MoM does have some story connection to KH3, the games are just different where it wouldn’t make sense to me.

Exactly. KH3 and ReMind make sense to be bundled because ReMind = Final Mix. We live in times now where companies can sell DLCs as content for a lesser price, and get it out quicker. When you have stuff like FFXV Royal Edition, it was great, because you could buy the Royal Pack for the massive updates instead of buying the whole game again at full price. And if you're new to the game, you can buy the Royal Edition and everything's bundled into one package at the same price. We've always had story updates in a Final Mix, so ReMind doing the same thing is no new ground.

Melody of Memory is different from this, because while it was made during the same time as KH3, it's clearly building on things that happened after KH3. I mean I suppose they could've stitched in the MoM cutscenes into ReMind and have it work that way, but then we would've had people wondering why there wasn't any new story content in MoM (you know it would happen). But MoM as a game combined with KH3? No lmao, I agree, they're two completely different games. The only reason why we had bundles in the first place was so people could catch up a lot easier.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

Melody of Memory's ending can't be KHIII's true ending because MoM was an afterthought. Chirithy was the original narrator of the game. Then Kairi was added. Along those lines, I wouldn't doubt that the story bits introduced in Melody were also an afterthought, and it makes more sense when you consider that the story that adds to the overall narrative of the franchise is actually locked behind the last minutes of the game.

With that in mind: no. KH3 doesn't need a Final Mix. KH3's FM is pretty much what Re:MIND is.

 

[The_Echo]

Re Mind is effectively KHIII Final Mix as it is.

We don't need a rerelease to a platform that can already play KHIII.

And we don't need yet another bundle package after the PS4 had four of them.

However you feel about KHIII, it's time to move on. Nomura and his team already have.

 

[AegisXIII]

Interesting opinions. I think some of you managed to convince me and I finally agree: MoM is not meant to be part of Kh3. It is more an epilogue to the whole Dark Seeker saga.

However I would still be happy to get a Dark Seeker Saga or Phase 1 Package on next-gen as a definitive edition, since as of right now the so called all-in-one package is not all-in-one anymore. But that's a different topic.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

Interesting opinions. I think some of you managed to convince me and I finally agree: MoM is not meant to be part of Kh3. It is more an epilogue to the whole Dark Seeker saga.

However I would still be happy to get a Dark Seeker Saga or Phase 1 Package on next-gen as a definitive edition, since as of right now the so called all-in-one package is not all-in-one anymore. But that's a different topic.

Correct. MoM is an Epilogue to the Seekers of Darkness Saga. The same can be said about Dark Road. But both suffer from the same thing KHIII suffered: the current saga was overshadowed by the foreshadowing of the next saga.