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KHI makes a KH game! Discussion #1: Story, Narrative and Themes



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Luap

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Another thing about the Light-for-evil idea: This antagonist that uses Light for evil manners could be working toward the goal of eliminating Darkness from the Universe completely. Their plan being to kill everyone with darkness in their heart, and thus, every 'normal' person.

Also, on a similar note, I would recommend that the series step away from the isolated worlds idea. While the isolation works well when first experiencing the story of a new world, additional visits to the worlds, like the second trips in KH2, could be mixed up considerably by allowing characters from different worlds to mingle. The evil disney villain league is the obvious example of this, but imagine heroes like Tarzan and Mogley teaming up, or Jack Skelington discovering the "spooky" enchanted doll Pinocchio. The ideas are virtually limitless, and these occurrences could provide some of the bonding that the series needs to drive home its emphasis on connections between people. This would also make repeat worlds (like the infamous Agrabah and Olympus Coliseum) much more tolerable

In Disney-canon, there is a crossover between those two in their shows. Hades and Jafar teamed up, if I remember correctly, which then lead to Herc and Aladdin teaming up too. That'd be pretty sweet to see in KH.
 

Memory Master

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I will definately write out a plot for a new KH game. I just have a few questions:

1. Are we started from scratch. As in the current series doesn't exist and we're creating the KH series from the begining? Or is this like making KH4?

2. Can we use the most recognizable concepts from the series such as Keyblades, Heartless, and Nobodies?

3. What's the deadline for the concept and story portion?
 
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I. Say that with Sora opening the door to light all the worlds arte brought back together into one huge world once more like they were before. But once again people start battling over the light. And it is revealed that the separation of worlds and the creation of balance between light and darkness was truly the best thing to happen in the universe. Thus Sora must unwillingly decide to forge the xbalde to summon kingdom hearts and split the worlds apart once more some how. I just came up with this and it may be dumb but i think it could shed more light on the KBW in a logical, reasonable way. Like Sora has to travel around the world and collect information to find out how the first war was ended. Also the 'One World' could feature cities such as Midgar and other FF locations. :D
 

Riku/Sora-Rule

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Well kh2 really got me thinking. In TWTNW Mickey says "the world's made out of light and darkness. You can't have one without the other, cause darkness is half of everything." Now there have been only moments when sora has used the power of light itself. In combat, the only time he's used it really was against Xemnas in kh2 and there's few moves like trinity limit. Maybe in the future, there could be more moves utilizing light. But also, being darkness is half of everything, a new enemy could utilize light, and the main character, (which can still be Sora) will have to use a balance between light and dark. I could probably create a story of them finding themselves in a state of limbo, more isolated and with fewer choices than Riku had with him struggling to free himself from the hold Xeanhort had on him. Could possibly mean he can't see anybody because of the influence from their side perspective, so if they live in life the light balance would be destroyed and he'll be stuck as he is at this point in time, or vice versa and he could be lost to the darkness. Also, the isolation might begin to cause too much of a juggle between the forces and it could begin to tear them apart. Give the main character a darker saga than this time when Riku had the dark story. I'd appreciate feedback!
 

.Oji

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Let me quickly just say that this seeming obsession with a villain using light for not-so-good purposes is starting to wear thin each time I hear someone propose it. The more I think about how cool it could be, the more un-cool it becomes. Evil darkness wielder... except reverse!―fascinating!... except not really. We should stop getting caught up in these good-evil dichotomies. Just saying.

Anywho, will have some ideas up here tomorrow. *Goes back to reading Beyond Good and Evil by Nietzsche*
 

Riku/Sora-Rule

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Let me quickly just say that this seeming obsession with a villain using light for not-so-good purposes is starting to wear thin each time I hear someone propose it. The more I think about how cool it could be, the more un-cool it becomes. Evil darkness wielder... except reverse!―fascinating!... except not really. We should stop getting caught up in these good-evil dichotomies. Just saying.

Anywho, will have some ideas up here tomorrow. *Goes back to reading Beyond Good and Evil by Nietzsche*

What if it was a combined force where one utilized light and the other, dark. I mean the reason I suggest a villain to support light is so for once we could get to play as a character with dark abilities, well longer than 1 minute anyways lol
 

destinykh

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I will definately write out a plot for a new KH game. I just have a few questions:

1. Are we started from scratch. As in the current series doesn't exist and we're creating the KH series from the begining? Or is this like making KH4?

Yep starting from scratch. Apparently Shamdeo mentioned about making a new protagonist, which makes sense since we have no idea how Sora's story will actually end in the Xehanort Saga.

2. Can we use the most recognizable concepts from the series such as Keyblades, Heartless, and Nobodies?

I think we should keep to the established rules of the KH universe. The way things are going, it's not so much creating a totally new universe with the name 'Kingdom Hearts' slapped onto it, but expanding upon that. Consider that the Xehanort Saga has ended, and this new 'game' is a spinoff with new characters and scenarios.

3. What's the deadline for the concept and story portion?

A week or so.
 

Luap

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Another idea:
A character who tries to make the world as it was pre-BBS. Before there were creatures like Unversed/Heartless/Nobodies running around, and the worlds were divided peacfully. Or, perhaps, a character who tries to restore the worlds to being the world again, as in, how it was pre-KBW (MX is trying, but I'm talking w/o another KBW).
 

Memory Master

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One thing I don't like about what they did to the keyblades was that now everyone seems to have a keyblade where as in KH 1 the keyblade was something only the most special of hearts could wield.

So I think that perhaps the importance and specialness of the keyblade needs to be restored.

As such what if there was only one Keyblade per realm. Meaning only 4 keyblade wielders could exist at any one time.

Basically Sora is the wielder of the realm of light's keyblade.
Mickey is the wielder of the realm of darkness' keyblade.
Riku is the weilder of the realm of in between's keyblade.
Someone else could be the weilder of the realm of nothingness' keyblade.

Terra, Aqua, Ven, and Mickey were the wielders of the 4 keyblades before Sora. Mickey is the only one still active from that generation.

Before them Eraqus, Yen Sid, Xehanort (I know this isn't his saga but i'm using him for explanation sakes), and their master were the wielders of the 4 keyblades before them.
 

destinykh

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One thing I don't like about what they did to the keyblades was that now everyone seems to have a keyblade where as in KH 1 the keyblade was something only the most special of hearts could wield.

The only reason why it seems like the Keyblade is being spammed all over is because a large part of this series deals with the 'clones' of Sora, and thus by extension, they have plot reasons to wield the Keyblade.

The only affront to the rule so far is Kairi, but even then she's only been established as a Keyblade-less wielder so far.
 
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Let me quickly just say that this seeming obsession with a villain using light for not-so-good purposes is starting to wear thin each time I hear someone propose it. The more I think about how cool it could be, the more un-cool it becomes. Evil darkness wielder... except reverse!―fascinating!... except not really. We should stop getting caught up in these good-evil dichotomies. Just saying.

Anywho, will have some ideas up here tomorrow. *Goes back to reading Beyond Good and Evil by Nietzsche*

The purpose isn't for it to be cool, it's to illustrate that light doesn't always fall on the same side of the good-evil dichotomy. It's absolutely a worn concept in recent years, but then again, so are most of KH's themes. What separates it is entirely in the execution.

There is always going to be a good-evil dichotomy in KH because one of its fundamental components is Disney. Bear in mind that we're dealing with characters like Maleficent here. To make the central story so radically different than the Disney stories by eliminating that dichotomy altogether runs the risk of alienating Disney. If anything, making light used for immoral purposes blurs the line, but not to any extent that would be out of Disney's sense of morality.
There are other means of making the false dilemma, the black-and-white of good versus evil a little more gray.

For example, perhaps what separates the antagonists from the protagonists is a division between deontological reasoning and utilitarianism. One group wishes to only do good on predefined principles regardless of consequences while the other wishes to do the greatest good for the greatest number. That could make things satisfyingly ambiguous.
 

Riku/Sora-Rule

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I agree with Memory Master. I always hated that, mainly with the addition of the key blade war, but I found to eventually
Like some of the concepts. However some of the designs for a few keys annoyed me, along with the continuity flaws of aqua and terra's blades, and how their keys don't Match their glider. Terra's glider has the shape an pieces from the Ends of the Earth key blade which isn't obtained until the end of the game not the earth shaker which he started with. Same with aqua, her glider more resemble the storm fall key rather than the rainfall.
 

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I love that "Characters from different worlds mingle or interact" idea. I really think that they should not be so contained, especially if the setting is after the Xehanort Saga.

I also kind of like Memory Master's idea that there's a limited number of wielders in a generation, however, the fabled Keyblade War had more than four wielders participate (as there was a large graveyard full of keyblades). If we want a set limit per generation, then we'll have to explain the Keyblade Graveyard.

I think the Realm of Darkness should be explored further. As Birth by Sleep Version 2 is coming out, I think the canon series will finally get a chance to do that, but we cannot really be sure until BbSV2 finally gets out.

I like the idea of a villain who uses light as a means to an end, however, I don't think it would be properly executed in a religious zealot trying to help people. It just goes from "Light is Not Good" to "Helping too much is a bad thing"/"Too much of a good thing..."

To get to those prompts that've been proposed:

+ What kind of a story do you want to tell? Do you prefer games that are cliche but written well at the expense of depth or games that are more convoluted and require more reading between the lines at the expense of confusion? If you want both, please elaborate.

I actually prefer a more convoluted story with a lot of back story. Why? Because my philosophy on people is that we all have a backstory; we all have a background. I try to emphasize that in my novels, and with any story that has a lot of characters, it is possible to show such a thing. Yes, that would be another proposal for a theme, but I still think that a theme to shoot for for a Kingdom Hearts game is one under the Emotions motif.

I'm not saying that we should expand the game's backstory by leaning heavily on the plots of the Disney films or by relying on pseudo-reports, though the pseudo-reports should be used appropriately if at all. And yes, I am against having the sub-plots in the worlds relying heavily on the plots of their respected films. The Kingdom Hearts original characters are not the same as those found within the films, so the game's plots and sub-plots should stray away from the expected.

If I wanted to experience the plot of Bambi or The Nightmare Before Christmas, I would have just watched the films.

+ What themes do you feel this new Kingdom Hearts game should explore that we haven't seen in the series before? (ex: good triumps over evil, the bonds of friendship)

Firstly, I just want to say that a motif is a phrase (and not the message of the story) while a theme is a sentence with a subject and a verb (and is the/a message of the story). "Good triumphs over evil" is a theme, but "The bonds of friendship" is a motif (and there are many possible themes under that motif). At least, that's my understanding of it (now that I've spoken with a bunch of people on the subject).

I think the motif of bonds should be dropped. The Xehanort Saga has that motif, and it was so poorly executed that I believe that the Kingdom Hearts series won't be able to ever properly touch upon it. In other words, too many clones, which were used because of the motif of bonds and connections.

That being said, I believe a decent motif for this new game/saga could be Emotions, as in how emotions affect/effect people, places, and things. "Hatred corrupts the best of us," is a possible theme under this motif, as is "Love is the strongest force" (and, conversely, "Love is the weakest force"). One would think that Kingdom Hearts has already touched upon this motif, but so far the only significant emotions that are made a point are the love of friends, apathy (in the Nobodies and nowhere else), and blind ambition for power. I like what someone already said in this thread concerning emotions (to paraphrase): I want to see what happens to the heart when it is left to be apathetic; does it become a second mind? does it become cold and mechanical?

We could utilize the emotional state of apathy for the first game by having a main character be themselves apathetic to what is going on around them (though not completely), i.e., the main antagonist's actions and the main protagonist's quest to stop them. And the game itself could go into the theme of "Hatred corrupts the best of us" by having the main protagonist being at first a loveable character (being similar to KH1-Sora) and quickly or eventually becoming filled with hatred for the main antagonist and what they are doing to the Realm of Light (or what -have-you). Or alternatively, we could have the main antagonist's backstory be "Hatred corrupts the best of us," in that they were once highly respected by many.

Another corruption theme: "Forgiveness heals all wounds" or "Forgiveness means death," in which the theme appears to be "x corrupts the best of us" but then takes a quick turn to the main antagonist asking if the main protagonist could ever forgive them for what they have done and the main protagonist replies something along the lines of "While you still breathe, no." Though that, too, can be seen as the main protagonist being corrupted (or an anti-hero).

+ How can the concepts established in the original Kingdom Hearts series work with your ideas? If not, why?

Firstly, I love the sentiments, hollowed bodies formed when a heart of a wielder is stolen. It's nicely poetic, and really sad. I would love for a main character to be one of the sentiments. Such could be utilized to show that more is happening than the main protagonist first realized.

But how could the canonical concepts be utilized for what I've already proposed? We've seen light harm before. And I'm not just talking about Roxas and keyblades of light. I'm also talking about the reflect spell. Yes, it was basically a defensive spell, but that would also imply that wind/air element can't harm anyone either. In Kingdom Hearts 1, we had a wind spell, which was mostly used to lessen damage to Sora, but in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories and Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days, the wind element's spell became more violent. One can argue that such happened in Days out of necessity (such as why water element finally became its own thing), but the wind element's spell continues to be more violent in RE:coded.

What I am trying to say is that if wind element spells can be expanded upon in the series, then so can light element spells, thereby allowing a character to utilize light spells (and The Light) to do whatever they please (and be used to show that the light is not pure and "good"). We can look at the Final Mix fights between Sora and Roxas for other light element spells.

The Sentiments are another thing that need talking about. It is my understanding that they are created when a keyblade master has their heart stolen (literally having it taken out). The Sentiments seem to be created of the master's armor and their soul. As far as I know, the Sentiments are not sentient or sapient, but we could explore and/or expand them into something beyond "the mindless," though I doubt it, as the mind seems to belong with the heart (e.g. "zombie" Roxas in Days; Sora-Heartless; Sora wandering around as a Shadow; Ansem, Seeker of Darkness).

+ How balanced is the game's narrative? The Kingdom Hearts series traditionally has had it's narrative gravitated towards the bookends, but would you opt for a more balanced way of story-telling or do you think it is effective as is? Also, tell us how you would create a balanced (or imbalanced) narrative by expanding on how the story evolves over the course of the game.

I'm not completely sure what you mean here, but I'll try to say what I believe it is, then say what I think on the topic of this prompt.

What you mean by "balanced" and "imbalanced" is heavy gameplay versus heavy narration/dialogue?

I think the current pattern is undesired. In Kingdom Hearts 1, Mickey was the silent text in the beginning of the game (we're told), yet not once is it brought up afterwards during the game. Even at the end when Sora & Co. have defeated Ansem, SoD and Mickey finally has a line, it isn't mentioned nor hinted at. They could have had Mickey voiceless for the scene, implying that the beginning voiceless character was also the ending voiceless character. What I'm trying to say is that I think the narrative is too far apart and imbalanced (with more gameplay than narrative)

So I'm opting for a balance. I've already said above that I think each of the worlds' plots should differ from their respective films, which means that players will need more imput to understand what's going on exactly. I'm all for something similar to Jiminy's journals (just sayin'), but I think the chronicler should speak more often. In Chain of Memories, Jiminy did just that, and I for one was never lost on the happenings because of him and Goofy. I'm not saying that the narrative should be formulaic; I'm very against something so tedious. However, I think that if we have a few characters that discuss what is going on from time to time, the player/the audience will not be so confused by the complexity of the story.

+ At what point does the main theme of the game become apparent? Is your theme something that is present without, or does it surface over the course of the story? Good versus evil is a good example of the former and a love story is a good example of the latter.

The Author is Dead and all that, and the theme we hope for should not be shoved into the audience's face. That would make the game more "See what I did thar" and less fantastic. If the story is complex, then there are going to be many themes that are present all throughout. However, I think that if we purposely place one or two for the main antagonist and the main protagonist, then the theme will be there for the audience to see when they look for it. A good story isn't necessarily one that makes you cry the first time through; it's a story that makes you cry and want to come back to the story time and time again.

I believe gamers call it "re-playability of a game."

To be blunt, I think the main theme (i.e. the theme we purposely place in the story) should surface subtly over the course of the story.

+ How do you think people will generally respond to the themes you've created for your story? Do you want to make people laugh or cry? Do you want them to be intrigued or entertained?

I prefer to make stories that are capable of making the audience cry (tear jerkers) and be intrigued. And with a Kingdom Hearts game, I think that that is possible. I mean, the Xehanort Saga is not only filled with intriguing, ingenious concepts, but it's also a very depressing one, too.

And I'm not really sure how people would respond to the themes and motifs that I've proposed.

+ How would you handle contrasting events and themes? If your story is about the bonds of friendship, how would you illustrate the feeling of seperation and how prevalent should it be?

Contrasting events and themes should be used as foils. In other words, contrasting themes can be utilized to make each other seem more of itself. (For example, there's a decently intelligent, very knowledgeable student in class, and the person sitting next to them is considered one of the "druggie kids" and doesn't easily comprehend the coursework. One makes the other look more intelligent, while the other makes the "druggie kid" seem more stupid.)

Basically, I would welcome contrasting themes in drafts, and try to position them to foil each other within the story. If they cannot work, then one or the other will have to be scrapped.

The same can be said of contrasting events. Let's say that Kairi forced a promise out of Sora, but then allowed Riku to make a similar promise for himself. This would show that she feels differently about Sora than she does about Riku, and does not leave the audience guessing.

Yay foils!

+ Do you set up your story for a sequel(s)? How do you establish things in your original game's story that carry into the next story and help bridge them effectively?

I prefer to set things up to have a sequel, as then I do not have to worry about getting everything that I want in in. Though if we do set this up for a sequel, I propose that we plot out what will happen in the first game and the second game before we, in this hypothetical situation, create the first game. It will make the seams cleaner and crisp, and one would be hard-pressed to find inaccuracies.

+ Do you want to tell a story from one character's perspective or several? If it's one character, how would you let the player get into the character's head? Is the player character someone who is very reliable that the player can replace with their own persona or does the character have a defined personality that we eventually come to understand?

We've seen in Birth by Sleep that it is possible to show one journey in multiple POVs. As I have said above, my philosophy is that we all have a backstory; we all have a background. Multiple perspectives will give us a few chances to show the main character's personalities and flesh out more characters than is possible with only one POV.

I think that each of the characters should have defined personalities that come to light as the audience plays the game. I think that there should not be any instances where a character randomly says some things about themselves, but I do believe that the characters should eventually trust one another and open up to each other; otherwise it would be mostly inner dialogue.

Now that I think about it, the only characters that I cannot see opening up would be a character that's like a Sentiment.

Did you mean "who is very relatable"? (My computer is now telling me that relatable is not a word... :/ okay then...)
 

destinykh

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I like the idea of a villain who uses light as a means to an end, however, I don't think it would be properly executed in a religious zealot trying to help people. It just goes from "Light is Not Good" to "Helping too much is a bad thing"/"Too much of a good thing..."

But that's just it. The theme here isn't just "Light is Not Good". Light is an element, which while seemingly pure and defensive in nature, can be just as offensive as you yourself mentioned with the Aero spells. There's nothing much to explore there. The nuance to the "Light is Not Good" theme is the motives behind the villain using the light powers, and the motives associated with such a theme is usually about going a little overboard with the helping people thing. Cliche probably at this point yea, but not really explored in the KH series. Strip the 'religious zealot trying to help people' element or something similar, you're reducing the theme to the simple fact that light can be offensive, which is kinda obvious.

And my god, the more we're gonna talk about this 'Light isn't good' concept, the more cliche and predictable it will be before it is even properly executed in the canon series XD

On topic though, my version of a Kingdom Hearts story would be primarily character-driven, most significantly how each character is flawed and how their flaws ultimately bring about their own tragedies, or in some cases, how they triumph over them. Riku and TAV (particularly Terra and Aqua though) are intriguing in that respect. I want this to be an overall theme for the series, way above the standard 'Good vs Evil' theme. I believe the most powerful enemies we face are ourselves, our inner demons, and it'll be neat to see it in the series, but without quickie solutions and non-messy road to redemptions. I'd like the series to embrace the nitty gritties of being human without sugar coating the inner struggle.
 

kokkie

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I am a programmer, I could create the game from scratch with the help of people. In fact I was creating a KH 3D game myself but ended up losing hope because I lack a lot of knowledge in lots of subjects such as story-writers, animators, modelers, etc.

If you guys want me to collaborate somehow just tell me, lol.

EDIT: I think I got the whole point of the thread wrong, hahahaha.

Why don't we create a game from it. I'm currently learning to program in ruby, so maybe i can help. At least at a webbased game which runs on ruby on rails.
 

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Man that sounds sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard!

OK maybe something like a new band of heroes are born after Sora is gone and they go on an adventure into the darkness to reunite an ancient door that had been recently been found!

I think of it as like Tales of Symphonia 2
 

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I tried coming up with a story from scratch before, boiling it back to the base concept of a Square/Disney collaboration. Basically came up with a retro 16 bit FF style plot, with Disney characters casted in the typical FF roles:
Mickey/Minnie/Donald/Goofy=main party who grew up as orphans at Toon town
Toon Town=doomed hometown razed by the empire
Queen from Snow White=ruler of evil empire taking over the world
Triton's Trident/Zeus' thunderbolts/Hellfire/Genie's Lamp=plot coupons in place of crystals
Chernabog=final boss & true ultimate threat we don't find out about until 5 minutes before the last dungeon
Ship from Treasure Planet=the airship

& so forth. Granted the retro approach probably isn't very feasible for this experiment.

Aside from that my general story preferences are:
-story & gameplay tied directly into each other (3D is kinda doing this & the Zelda series is the template for how it's done)
-Disney characters playing important relevant roles
 
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destinykh

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Just a little tidbit to add cos I have thoughts.

+ At what point does the main theme of the game become apparent? Is your theme something that is present without, or does it surface over the course of the story? Good versus evil is a good example of the former and a love story is a good example of the latter.

What I think is important and can only be done in a game like Kingdom Hearts, it's to use the Disney worlds as a means of exploring the themes, thus they will gradually surface over the story. It can be one theme, with multiple facets of it explored in the different worlds, or each world has a unique theme tailored to it that ultimately encompasses the entire story (though not every world HAS to explore a theme though, as long as there is relevance in the form of theme OR character development).

For example, Halloween Town in Kingdom Hearts 2, with the entire plotline of the Experiment and its search for a heart, paralleling the Organization. See, this is why concept-wise I actually like the 2nd visits of certain Disney worlds, no movie rehash there. Another example: Pride Lands in BBS, Simba's issues with Mufasa vs Terra/Aqua's own deal with Eraqus. So I think Disney worlds should always be selected based on how relevant they are to the game's themes instead of how fun they are.

Also, I really think the writers should be given the freedom to let the Disney characters expand beyond their assigned movie roles, not only to preserve continuity, but if possible to reinforce a theme as well. Say there's an Ursula resurrection ritual in KH2? (I have an entire backstory to go with this but I can't elaborate on it now) Ariel should be the first one to ignore Ursula's promise of a human life with Prince Eric and stop the ritual herself. It goes against everything in the actual movie, but it flows well with established canon in KH1 and prevents a disservice of the character while giving her character development to boot (because no matter how naive she is in the movie I highly doubt she'll allow herself to be tricked by the same person twice). So I say the writers should really give the middle finger to the source material if it completely contradicts KH canon. Expand and pay tribute to the source material for the sake of themes and the characters, don't copy it.
 
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