KH3D went into the wrong direction

[ShardofTruth]

Yes, if someone can please explain what actually happend at the beginning of KH3D, that would be really helpful. If only Riku's and Sora's consciousness went to a Destiny Island created from their memories (or something like that), that would make a lot of sense. The "gateway" to the Sleeping Worlds is openend at the end of fight against Ursula like it's openend at the end of KH3D by Sora to visit the Dream Eaters one more time.
But if only their consciousness is sent to the Sleeping Worlds how they end up physically in the World That Never Was and why are their bodies never seen in the Mysterious Tower?

They can't time travel there because they still have their bodies and the Ursula part would make no sense at all, how would Yen Sid pull something like this off?
I understand that Yen Sid had no idea how to reach the Sleeping Worlds directly (it's the whole purpose of the game) so sending Sora and Riku back in time where Destiny Islands lost its heart and becomes part of the Sleeping Worlds makes a little bit of sense. Though normally (if a world falls into darkness) a person with a strong heart is sent somewhere else (Traverse Town) or becomes a summon gem.

Finally Destiny Islands is never mentioned to be situated in the Realm Between, so in opposite to The World That Never Was it's highly unlikely that it exists in both realms and Sora and Riku are already in the Sleeping Worlds at the beginning of the game.

 

[MinerKing]

Merlin creates a door that leads to the past of that world. And while in it, they're warned not to do anything that can alter the present. It completely goes against what KH3D was explaining. Not only that but there's still no good explanation on how sora and riku ended up at past destiny islands. To top off the whole thing, why is Ursula there?

I say it doesn't go against it completely because it's different, but that's just me.
That second part I'll have to wait until I hear Yensid's explanation in English. Ursula says something along the lines of "Looks like he was right, they are here!" which I'm assuming means she was sent there to interfere with their entrance into the realm of sleep. Hell this is Kingdom Hearts we're talking about, they could have actually not had real bodies during the whole exam.

 

[Sora2016]

I say it doesn't go against it completely because it's different, but that's just me.

This is pretty much how I have thought of it. It's a different form of time travel, so it wouldn't have to follow all of the rules that were set in DDD. I highly doubt Nomura "just forgot Timeless River exists"... >>

Now, that doesn't exactly explain why Merlin was powerful enough to enable time travel just like that, while MX had to go through all of this trouble to do so. But that is a different issue entirely, and I don't really care myself I mean apparently he was also able to make an alternate dimension for Lea to train in or something right? So who knows what else Merlin can do lol.

 

[Arausio]

I mean apparently he was also able to make an alternate dimension for Lea to train in or something right? So who knows what else Merlin can do lol.

a different TIME dimension if im not mistaken.

so i guess it kinda does make sense he would be able to that for sora.

 

[Sora2016]

a different TIME dimension if im not mistaken.

so i guess it kinda does make sense he would be able to that for sora.

Yeah, I think Yen Sid said time flowed faster there so he could train quickly. Basically he made a Hyperbolic Time Chamber. So I repeat, who knows what else Merlin can do?

 

[axel95]

It's starting to make more sense. Almost like a closed time loop, where even though all these characters are moving through time, the events were always meant to happen regardless of tampering. I still don't get how XH was able to hijack their consciousness and send them back in time though

Xigbar also mentions that there's a couple more hoops he has to jump through. The Org. XIII members present at the end are just consciousnesses as well, correct? If they all were returning to their own time at the end, I'm wondering how he's going to gather all these people a second time without it being a disaster.

TLDR KH3 needs to come out soon and it better deliver some closure for once

KH3 will be the end of the Xehanort saga, so I don't see how much more closure you would need.

I think that Nomura did a pretty good job of tying everything together while setting up for KH3. Are there plot holes? Some, but nobody is perfect! I'm liking the direction the series is going in, and watching the English endings on YouTube has gotten me VERY excited for KH3!

 

[aspenvenom619]

KH3 will be the end of the Xehanort saga, so I don't see how much more closure you would need.

I think that Nomura did a pretty good job of tying everything together while setting up for KH3. Are there plot holes? Some, but nobody is perfect! I'm liking the direction the series is going in, and watching the English endings on YouTube has gotten me VERY excited for KH3!

Closure meaning there aren't just grand asspulls and retcons to explain everything

 

[OathkeeperRoxas XIII]

Closure meaning there aren't just grand asspulls and retcons to explain everything

That is not what closure means. Look it up

 

[Hillboy]

Closure meaning there aren't just grand asspulls and retcons to explain everything

You have a warped view on the word closure

 

[aspenvenom619]

Everything should have a rhyme and reason to it and follow the series logic. I'm perfectly OK with an open ended finale that leaves it open to interpretation. What I'm not OK with is deus ex machina, which it seems like some of you find acceptable.

 

[Arausio]

also.. those hourglass unversed could freeze you in time.

they came from vanitas.. and im not too sure but isnt he part of Xehanort?

 

[Memory Master]

Okay okay, let's try to clear a few things up.

Time Travel: KH3D VS Timeless River.

Yeah, Merlin used a door and Xehanort abandoned his body to do it. But some of you don't seem to understand the idea of "laws of the universe" A universe has certain laws that govern it, like gravity. The thing about these laws is that they naturally stay constant. The laws of Time Travel would be the same. If YMX says that you can't travel back in time unless you give up your body, well that isn't something YMX just came up with, that is a law of the KH universe. The same goes for changing the future if you time travel to the past, the laws of the KH universe would prevent it.

The same is true for Time Travel in our universe in the regard there would be laws applied to it. The best known theories regarding time travel in our universe would be:

1.) You can physically time travel to the past and what you do there can change the future. (What Merlin's time travel is in KH2)

2.) You can physically time travel to the past and your actions there will not change our future, but will instead create an alternate timeline that splits off from the point in the original timeline you began to change things, thus creating an alternate timeline and future that exist alongside our timeline. (DBZ Type of time travel)

3.) You can time travel but you can't be seen or interact with the physical world, instead your simply like a phantom observer, watching the events of the past occur in front of you. (Einstein suggested this is what would probably be the case)

4.) Finally, the universes laws regarding time travel may simply be that it's impossible to time travel. Although I find this unlikely considering if we assume there are intellegent races out in the universe that can warp and bend space to travel great distances, then it's not unthinkable to assume that time an also be warped and manipulated considering how closely related time and space are. In fact time is warped around black holes, so that would suggest time travel is possible. But I believe there are some things humans shouldn't tamper with and one of them is time travel, it's far too dangerous for anyone (Human, Alien, or otherwise) to mess with.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Everything should have a rhyme and reason to it and follow the series logic. I'm perfectly OK with an open ended finale that leaves it open to interpretation. What I'm not OK with is deus ex machina, which it seems like some of you find acceptable.

Up to now, there isn't any asspull or deus ex machina yet. More than 90% of the things revealed in Dream Drop Distance were already hinted and foreshadowed in earlier games and Ultimania interviews.

Also, a deus ex machina doesn't have to be always something negative. Goofy jumping in the way and shielding Sora from Riku's Dark Firaga was a deus ex machina as was Kairi undoing Sora's "sacrifice" in mere minutes by just hugging him.

 

[aspenvenom619]

Up to now, there isn't any asspull or deus ex machina yet. More than 90% of the things revealed in Dream Drop Distance were already hinted and foreshadowed in earlier games and Ultimania interviews.

Also, a deus ex machina doesn't have to be always something negative. Goofy jumping in the way and shielding Sora from Riku's Dark Firaga was a deus ex machina as was Kairi undoing Sora's "sacrifice" in mere minutes by just hugging him.

Lea appearing out of thin air not once but twice to stop an attack would qualify

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Lea appearing out of thin air not once but twice to stop an attack would qualify

There isn't any difference to the examples I mentioned with Goofy and Kairi. It's a common narrative device and while Lea may have appeared literally out of thin air (or rather, a dark corridor) his interference was already foreshadowed. The first one in his scene with Ienzo when he concludes to search for Isa and decides to use dark corridors again and the second with his request to Yen Sid.
Furthermore, Mickey also says "he made it" implying that he was expecting Lea to show up sooner or later.

 

[Deleted member 34215]

Last night I finished the game. Didn't expect that the last part would be so long, but hey.. It was mind-blowing.

I wouldn't talk about "retcons". A lot of things were hinted in the past but we didn't pay too much attention to them.
When in 3D Xemnas talked about the members of the Organizations having hearts, I instantly thought about what Demyx said in KH2.. something like "oh we too have hearts.. don't be mad...". At that time it felt like something said by a delusional guy that didn't have a heart but convinced himself of having one by remembering how it felt having one. That was the principle behind the Nobodies personality.

Also, in Kingdom Hearts everything is not only black or white. There are nuances.

Another hint, and that was in BBS, is the change in Braig. At that time we didn't really know what happened between him and Xehanort. We could generally guess, but now it's more clear.

As for Young Xehanort.. well.. by beating the Mysterious Figure in BBS you get a time-themed Keyblade. He has some time-based attacks, had a black robe and two weapons that clearly hinted at Xemnas. We DID saw it coming, didn't we? (by the way, that boss fight in 3D is all kinds of amazing)

So, to end my post, I say that at first you could think that Nomura is a poor writer, that he has no idea what he's doing, that he writes as the serie goes on and that he retcons stuff... but if you think a bit about the past games, you can see that everything is coming back together.

 

[Smithee]

Last night I finished the game. Didn't expect that the last part would be so long, but hey.. It was mind-blowing.

I wouldn't talk about "retcons". A lot of things were hinted in the past but we didn't pay too much attention to them.
When in 3D Xemnas talked about the members of the Organizations having hearts, I instantly thought about what Demyx said in KH2.. something like "oh we too have hearts.. don't be mad...". At that time it felt like something said by a delusional guy that didn't have a heart but convinced himself of having one by remembering how it felt having one. That was the principle behind the Nobodies personality.

Also, in Kingdom Hearts everything is not only black or white. There are nuances.

Another hint, and that was in BBS, is the change in Braig. At that time we didn't really know what happened between him and Xehanort. We could generally guess, but now it's more clear.

As for Young Xehanort.. well.. by beating the Mysterious Figure in BBS you get a time-themed Keyblade. He has some time-based attacks, had a black robe and two weapons that clearly hinted at Xemnas. We DID saw it coming, didn't we? (by the way, that boss fight in 3D is all kinds of amazing)

So, to end my post, I say that at first you could think that Nomura is a poor writer, that he has no idea what he's doing, that he writes as the serie goes on and that he retcons stuff... but if you think a bit about the past games, you can see that everything is coming back together.

I have never once viewed Nomura as a poor writer.

In fact, the only thing from the KH series that has ever caused me any sort of confusion is trying to figure out what happened to Terra and Eraqus.

Everything else, I comprehend fully.

 

[Deleted member 34215]

I have never once viewed Nomura as a poor writer.

In fact, the only thing from the KH series that has ever caused me any sort of confusion is trying to figure out what happened to Terra and Eraqus.

Everything else, I comprehend fully.

I don't think Nomura is a poor writer (I love this serie mainly because of the story) but it seems like a lot of people think so.

I too can't understand what happened to Terra and Eraqus.. MX said something like "you're three guardians short", when Sora was still captured, so maybe he hinted at Terra? I'll have to rewatch that scene.

 

[Smithee]

I don't think Nomura is a poor writer (I love this serie mainly because of the story) but it seems like a lot of people think so.

I too can't understand what happened to Terra and Eraqus.. MX said something like "you're three guardians short", when Sora was still captured, so maybe he hinted at Terra? I'll have to rewatch that scene.

I keep thinking he hinted at BBS-Terranort time-traveled from the past, when MX's control over Terra was at its peak.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I have never once viewed Nomura as a poor writer.

In fact, the only thing from the KH series that has ever caused me any sort of confusion is trying to figure out what happened to Terra and Eraqus.

Everything else, I comprehend fully.

And that's one of the mysteries we're not supposed to understand yet on purpose, as stated in the Dream Drop Distance Ultimania.
It's the same as with the chambers of repose and waking, these mysteries are kept vague on purpose for KH III.

I don't think Nomura is a poor writer (I love this serie mainly because of the story) but it seems like a lot of people think so.

I too can't understand what happened to Terra and Eraqus.. MX said something like "you're three guardians short", when Sora was still captured, so maybe he hinted at Terra? I'll have to rewatch that scene.

A lot of people apparently think so because they don't bother to truly connect the dots and more vague points spread across the series. Today, people apparently need everything delivered on a silver platter and/or can't cope with the fact that in a still ongoing series, widely accepted fan interpretations of vague plot points may become false/irrelevant in the scope of new developments.
Sure, one can make a point about several of these "dots" and hints only present inside the Ultimanias and Final Mixes, that is an issue that can hamper the understanding.

It's meant to be like this:

Q: What happened to Terra's heart and body?
A: In this game, Master Xehanort does not appear in the form of Terra-Xehanort when he transferred his heart, but as the old man he was before he took control of Terra's body. During the revival, what happened to Terra's body, and Terra's heart that was in opposition to Xehanort's control? In Kingdom Hearts, Birth by Sleep, it is to be considered that it was thought the whereabouts of the heart of Terra's master, Eraqus rested within his body.

This isn't a "plothole" but a question left deliberately open.