KH3D went into the wrong direction

[State]

What I don't understand is why Master Xehanort really needs other members than himself filling the Organization.

When Master Xehanort began his travels around the universe, studying various subjects, he came across the Keyblade War. It was an event that consisted of a battle between Keyblade wielders of both light and dark. During this conflict, the weapon known as the Xblade was created. The same blade has the power to summon Kingdom Hearts, an omnipotent power that can pretty much mess up with reality as we know it. Xehanort, with ideals such as believing in a realm where everything is balanced between darkness and light, began machinating in his mind that, with that force, he could fulfill his wishes of a world where dark and light elements could peacefully coexist. That's when he created two plans;

A.) Take Ventus as his apprentice, divide his heart in two sides; light (Ven) and dark (Vanitas) and make both factions collide, forging the Xblade. Taking into consideration that his body had a short lifespan left, he decided that he should shift bodies (this is where Terra comes in). Slowly, but surely, he began deceiving Terra into falling to the dark, unwillingly, debilitating him, making a grand opening in his heart, making it easier for Xehanort to control. Everything went according to plan; he got control over Terra's body and forged the Xblade, but... The unthinkable occurred; Terra's Lingering Will went into his armor, knocking Terranort out cold, while Aqua (alongside Mickey), weakened Venitas (Vanitas controlling Ven) and Ventus could put up a fight, regaining control over his body, at the cost of the Xblade vanishing. During all this conflict, Kingdom Hearts was slowly appearing on the Realm of Light. But after the Xblade vanished, it let out a strong force that pushed everyone away; Aqua and Ventus into space, Terranort into Radiant Garden and Mickey somewhere where he was conscious and rescued Aqua and Ven, that after that event, Aqua hid him in Land of Departure and turned it into a maze; Castle Oblivion. After that, Aqua could feel Terra somewhere, she went to that location, but Xehanort took control and confronted her, almost killing her. Alas, she won, Terra regained control for a moment, trying to separate his heart from Xehanort's but, accidentally, wiped out his and Xehanort's memories.

In summation;
Plan a failed and this is when plan b comes around...

B.) Amass a group of light and dark Keyblade wielders to recreate the Keyblade War. There are enough light wielders (Yen Sid, Mickey, Sora and Riku (although they later grew in numbers)). Since there were next to nothing in terms of dark wielders, Xehanort had to create them. How? By finding individuals fit enough to stand the force of his heart and darkness, artificially creating dark Keyblade wielders to make clash against the light wielders, creating the second Keyblade War, forcefully forging the Xblade and summoning Kingdom Hearts.

In summation;
He forged a group of dark wielders to make them fight against the light wielders to recreate the Keyblade War, reforging the Xblade and resummoning Kingdom Hearts.

Time travel (even as restricted as in KH) opens a door to all kind of bad story telling and inconsistencies,

Up until now, it's been as simple as Ansem SoD telling Young Xehanort that he has time-traveling powers, making the other Xehanorts aware of the plan.

only alternate timelines are worse.

I don't think Nomura is going to introduce another timeline, that would be too farfetched. What I think will happen is that, to end things peacefully, Sora and Master Xehanort will go back in time, in a period where Young Xehanort doesn't know about his time-traveling powers and both of them will try to persuade him to be good or fulfill what his old self wants. Since both Sora and Master Xehanort are complete opposites, they'd be acting like the conscious of good and evil.

/edit

"darkness is evil"

Riku acted as a good dark wielder for some time before he returned to the light. Just because the antagonists are on the side of darkness doesn't make the element itself evil. The reason Xehanort even is using darkness is because there are enough light wielders, if it were the other way around, he would go around spreading light and keyblade powers instead of dark.

In summation;
It's a matter of circumstances when it comes to finding out darkness affiliation (good or evil), when in reality, they're elements, they can't be affiliated. I.E. Master Eraqus almost killed his son, his son, all because he was using darkness. Eraqus was a fanatic of the light, he couldn't understand that both elements can coexist. The only difference between light and dark is that light doesn't take over your body and darkness has to be tamed. '_'

 

[ShardofTruth]

He forged a group of dark wielders to make them fight against the light wielders to recreate the Keyblade War, reforging the Xblade and resummoning Kingdom Hearts.

But the question remains: Why? If Xehanort and his younger self are part of the same group (though I suspect that they are actually different on a fundamental level), why not use Xehanorts from other times to fill the remaining positions instead of using Sora for example.
Did you ever play Day of the Tentacle (an adventure by Lucas Arts)? In the grand finale the antagonist "summoned" thousands of other selves from slightly different times to defeat the main heroes. I just don't understand why Master Xehanort doesn't do the same, even if he could and the consequences for him would be null.

 

[State]

But the question remains: Why? If Xehanort and his younger self are part of the same group (though I suspect that they are actually different on a fundamental level), why not use Xehanorts from other times to fill the remaining positions instead of using Sora for example.

Because the idea of time-traveling has just been introduced? The same can be said about when Xemnas had finished forming the Organization; why didn't he immediately corrupt everyone with Xehanort's heart? Because that idea was just introduced in this game.

 

[ShardofTruth]

Because the idea of time-traveling has just been introduced? The same can be said about when Xemnas had finished forming the Organization; why didn't he immediately corrupt everyone with Xehanort's heart? Because that idea was just introduced in this game.

I thought he tried but failed for a variety of reasons (Nobodies developing "proto-hearts" and not using his keyblade etc.).

 

[Memory Master]

Because the idea of time-traveling has just been introduced? The same can be said about when Xemnas had finished forming the Organization; why didn't he immediately corrupt everyone with Xehanort's heart? Because that idea was just introduced in this game.

Actually there is a reason Xemnas couldn't just turn everyone of the members into Xehanorts. The whole reason he was creating an artificial KH was to hook up the other members to it, then Xemnas would become one with it and use it's incredible power to fast forward the xehanortification process. Obviously the process can take awhile to complete. Look at Xigbar, he's had a fragment of MX's heart in him since BBS, 11 years, and he's only half Xehanort.

By using the power of the artificial KH, you can fast forward the whole process, transforming the members into Xehanorts in a matter of minutes or hours instead of years.
---------------------------------------------

Yeah the more I think about it, the more I dislike the time travel concept. I still say they should have just had fragments of XH and Xemnas kept around so that YMX could restore them, and have them exist alongside MX and Terra. I mean it's really not like it hasn't been done before. Look in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, the fragment of Voldemort's soul was feeding off of Ginny's life force and if he had finished the job that soul fragment would have taken physical form and we would have a young Voldemort coexisting with the Older Voldemort.

They could have easily done the same with XH and Xemnas. As for Vanitas, just have him going to YMX just like Ven went to Sora have their hearts were damaged.

You want to put restrictions on the whole turning heart fragments into versions of yourself? Easy. Sure hearts have been shown to grow and heal overtime, so just say that despite MX's heart would heal after cutting a fragment off of his heart, it would still leave scars and cracks in his heart and if he over does it on the fragmenting deal then his heart would eventually become so unstable it would collapse and dissapear, thus erasing his existence completely.

Why Nomura decided to go with the most complex and inconsistent route with the mutliple Xehanorts via time travel, is beyond me. I like complex plots that make you think, but not every single plot point has to be complex.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

honesty, let's get a bit realistic here

time travel really isn't the best way for a plot. it does not work. it does not work in games. it is an awful plot device. awful. enough of the time traveling garbage. maybe that would have worked back in the '90s when it was a "big thing" but not anymore. it's old, overplayed, and worn out. I was stunned when they actually put out "Yeah Xehanort went back in time to tell himself" huh?

They really ruined the plot for me. i'll play the games till the end of the Xehanort saga since I still enjoy the gameplay, but the story? i don't care for it anymore. i can't follow it. it just makes me pull out my hair and shudder in disgust. they had a GREAT plot in BBS. I can't believe they ruined it. I really liked the way how the X Blade was formed in BBS. It was better than that crap that they decided to pull out in KH 3D

-shrugs
The hell with the story now

While I do have to agree with you that the time travel plot wasn't the smartest idea in the century and it could have been explained much easier, especially when considering that Ansem and Xemnas have minds of their own and the notion that new hearts can be born from other hearts given the right circumstances, I don't see why one has to make such a fuss about it and resort to cussing.

You should really overthink that I would assume, as KH is primarily about the story and there will probably be more twists ahead that won't get your approval, so why bother?
Is it really worth it to throw a fit about every move that one dislikes?
I'd also like to see what exactly you think they "ruined" from BBS since the main goals of Xehanort still stand. He wanted Terra's body as his new main host, but since he comes back as grandpa MX in DDD there went obviously something wrong that didn't go according to Xehanort's wishes. What it was can't yet be said since everything regarding Terra and Eraqus is kept a mystery.
In my personal opinion I also like the way the X-blade was made in BBS better than the alternative approach introduced now, but it does not mean that the thing in BBS wasn't a X-blade, it was one, just not the "perfect" version that equals the original one that was destroyed in the Keyblade War.

Another thing that bugged me about KH3D is how we're back to square one with the whole "darkness is evil"-theme. I thought we got over that with Chain of Memories and Birth by Sleep.

I don't know which games you played, but Chain of Memories only really talked about that darkness doesn't have to be evil, it depends on who uses it. In KH2 it was also said by Mickey and Riku that the element darkness is not the problem, but those who misuse it and fall to its temptations.
And Birth by Sleep out of all titles showed that even stronger. Darkness is not evil, but way easier to misuse in order to do evil. Now in DDD it shows also actually the other side with the Dream Eaters. You know what Dream Eaters are? They are beings of Darkness, yes, also the spirits, and several of them look and act as cute as Stitch, proving that darkness doesn't automatically equals evil.

Why Nomura decided to go with the most complex and inconsistent route with the mutliple Xehanorts via time travel, is beyond me. I like complex plots that make you think, but not every single plot point has to be complex.

I agree with everything you said in your post, as there are several possible scenarios with which all this can be explained easier. The whole heart-fragment and hearts being able to be formed and nutured-concept already gives a decent explanation. Heck, this is even what gave Naminé and Roxas their hearts and most likely will lead to them being able to exist on their own, so why couldn't the same be used for the Xehanorts?
Well, I suspect this time it was really Nomura making it complicated for the sake of making it complicated. He's taking that advice this guy from Final Fantasy gave him once too literally and his friendship with Kojima (the guy in charge of Metal Gear Solid, which has also a complicated plot) may also feature into it. *ggg*

 

[MinerKing]

Honestly, I think without the time travel twist, it would have just been too simple, and could have been too easily thwarted. Think about Xehanort's previous attempt at creating the X-blade. He took the short route and ended up losing because it was too simple. If you are a good villain, you take a complex route in order to confuse your enemies and ensure that your plans are successful. I think Xehanort was confident enough to know that his new plan would succeed, no matter how complicated it was, because knowledge on the subject of time travel is limited in the Kingdom Hearts universe.

 

[State]

He took the short route and ended up losing because it was too simple.

I don't think it's simple to:

1.) Become someone's Master;
2.) Rip his heart in two;
3.) Both sides can live;
4.) Manipulate someone into succumbing to darkness;
5.) Take over his body;
6.) Kill your best friend.

So yeah, plan a was more complex than his current plan; corrupt individuals into wielding a dark keyblade and make them fight against light wielders. '_'

Other than that, Masternort didn't even consider the possibility of confronting Terra's animated armor.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I don't think it's simple to:

1.) Become someone's Master;
2.) Rip his heart in two;
3.) Both sides can live;
4.) Manipulate someone into succumbing to darkness;
5.) Take over his body;
6.) Kill your best friend.

So yeah, plan a was more complex than his current plan; corrupt individuals into wielding a dark keyblade and make them fight against light wielders. '_'

Other than that, Masternort didn't even consider the possibility of confronting Terra's animated armor.

Exactly, it's also not to forget that Xehanort planned his manipulations for several years and also showed already a remarkable talent to improvise.
Originally when he found Ventus and saw the potential of his heart he considered making Ven his new vessel, but he soon after realized that Ventus was way too good-hearted for his purposes and his body too frail, so he switched into using him for the X-blade instead.
He had intended to only use his apprentice for his own goals since the start, but the "how" changed over time.
He also didn't expect Ven to survive after his heart was so badly shattered, that's why he took him to Destiny Islands.
When later bringing him to Eraqus he first saw Terra and took note of him, planning the entire next four years on his schemes to manipulate both Terra and Ven to play into his hands.

So yeah, his plans in BBS were surely not "simple" by a wide margin. The only thing that could probably held against him is that he wanted to accomplish several goals at once and failed to include Aqua and Mickey properly in his plans, not to mention that he didn't expect Terra's will being so strong to animate his armor and Ventus partly resisting the fusion and then choosing to shatter his heart a second time by destroying the X-blade.

 

[ShardofTruth]

I don't know which games you played, but Chain of Memories only really talked about that darkness doesn't have to be evil, it depends on who uses it. In KH2 it was also said by Mickey and Riku that the element darkness is not the problem, but those who misuse it and fall to its temptations.
And Birth by Sleep out of all titles showed that even stronger. Darkness is not evil, but way easier to misuse in order to do evil. Now in DDD it shows also actually the other side with the Dream Eaters. You know what Dream Eaters are? They are beings of Darkness, yes, also the spirits, and several of them look and act as cute as Stitch, proving that darkness doesn't automatically equals evil.

Right, right and yet in the end of DDD it's all about the Thirteen Darknesses against the 7+7Lights and how evil darkness is. Whereas in Birth by Sleep Master Eraqus was the perfect example of how far light users actually can go to defeat "evil".
Also the Dream Eaters spirits are no beings or darkness according to the Ultimania: Spirits are born from the energy of Jiminy's Journals, similar to how Unversed are born from Vanitas.

 

[MinerKing]

I don't think it's simple to:

1.) Become someone's Master;
2.) Rip his heart in two;
3.) Both sides can live;
4.) Manipulate someone into succumbing to darkness;
5.) Take over his body;
6.) Kill your best friend.

So yeah, plan a was more complex than his current plan; corrupt individuals into wielding a dark keyblade and make them fight against light wielders. '_'

Other than that, Masternort didn't even consider the possibility of confronting Terra's animated armor.

I would venture to say that Xehanort manipulating Terra is part of his plan to stay alive, not to create the X-Blade. While the two plans go hand in hand, they are not the same plan.

Even Xehanort admits that his attempt at the X-Blade with Ventus was overly hasty and simply not the correct method. Because Organization XIII was defeated by Sora, time travel was necessary to gather more members for the 13 darknesses quickly in order to combat the growing 7 guardians of light.

 

[State]

not to create the X-Blade.

Part of his plans to fulfill his ideal of an equilibrium between light and dark was to get a young body so that he could live to mold and witness his yearned world; Terra. This is why he forces his heart into Terra's body, so that he can be more powerful and a worthy wielder for the Xblade.

Even Xehanort admits that his attempt at the X-Blade with Ventus was overly hasty and simply not the correct method.

Between recreating the Xblade and the war itself, the former seems the fastest to fulfill. Sure, it's the hastiest method, but it doesn't mean it failed because it was the smoothest. It failed because Masternort wasn't there to stop Aqua and Mickey from messing with Vanitas; he was knocked out cold by the Lingering Will.

 

[MinerKing]

I agree that taking over Terra was important for wielding the X-Blade, but not for it's creation, which clearly requires 7 guardians of light and 13 darknesses, which after Sora's intrusion, requires time travel to gather 13 darkness fast enough. That's all I'm saying.
The failure of the X-Blade is due to a number of factors. Not just Xehanort getting pwned.

 

[State]

but not for it's creation,

Right.

which clearly requires 7 guardians of light and 13 darknesses,

No it doesn't. It just requires either:

1.) A heart of pure light clashes with one of pure darkness;
2.) A Keyblade War happens.

All that clashing between hearts of light and dark, slowly messing with the fabric of both worlds clearly disrupts the balance between them and forges the Xblade. Both methods were established my Masternort himself, he just chose the shortest one, even though it's the longest to accomplish.

The failure of the X-Blade is due to a number of factors.

Like...?

 

[MinerKing]

The reason I say that is because the one v one X-Blade did not stabilize. This could be because of Ventus's strength over Vanitas, or his ties to Terra or Aqua, or any number of likely scenarios. Because of it's failure, Xehanort realized the only true and proper way to make the X-Blade was the 7 guardians of light and the 13 darknesses. This is why he began gathering Organization 13 in the first place, and used time travel in order to create a fail-safe.
His only two options without gathering past versions of himself and ensuring he planted himself in select few individuals are...
1. Attempt a method that failed previously (the one v one X-Blade).
2. Hand out pamphlets recruiting individuals for a new Organization XIII that could not be trusted.

 

[Memory Master]

The way I see it, since only one light and one darkness was used to forge the X-Blade in BBS, it's basically a very incomplete X-Blade. Now considering the X-Blade summons KH (And yeah I know MX summons it with his Keyblade in BBS which I still don't understand) but if we ignore that and assume the blue KH was corresponding to the incomplete X-Blade, then basically the KH in BBS is only a fragment of the whole KH. It would make sense an incomplete X-Blade would summon only a piece of the true KH. But when you forge the X-Blade fully and completely you can summon the true KH in it's complete form.

Honestly instead of MX saying he goofed up in BBS with his plan to forge the X-Blade, I would have just said that MX was using Ventus and Vanitas to forge an incomplete X-Blade as a test to prove the validity of the legends surrounding the X-Blade and the Keyblade War. It would make sense he would want to test the legends validity before he spends 11 years trying to forge the X-Blade.

But then again there are a few other tweaks I would have made to certain parts of the story. Like having Vanitas be a replica of Ven made from his darkness instead of a walking heart. Vanitas would have been the first replica ever made, was going to use him as his vessel but due to the fact this was the first replica he ever made Vanitas was very unstable, so much so his body would split into tiny pieces (Unversed), so he was to be used to forge the incomplete X-Blade. Of course later on Xemnas continues to try and perfect the replicas as another back up plan to gather 13 vessels, but he's never able to create a perfect replica and add that to the whole Xion disaster, he just decided it was more trouble than it was worth and shut the replica program down.

I would have changed the wording in KH1 so it would be more clear that DTD is the door to the realm of darkness, and even though KH is inside the dark realm, it is so deep into the darkness that no one would ever be able to get to it without becoming a heartless. Vexen said in COM that Maleficent was trapped in the dark realm instead of dead after her defeat in KH1, so in KH3D Maleficent or YMX could explain that YMX approached her in the dark realm and using his great control over darkness and her power over sleep, they put a few of the worlds taken by the heartless into the deep slumber that caused them to become the sleeping worlds in KH3D. In exchange YMX tells her the key to getting out of the realm of darkness (To used the bonds between her heart and the hearts of others in the realm of light to facilitate her return. She basically uses her fierce rivalry with the 3 good faries to return in KH2.)

As for YMX himself, i'm thinking maybe a nobody of MX created when he took over Terra. Since he's a nobody but of course wasn't part of the first Organization, maybe give hints in KH2 and 358/2 Days of a Zero Member, maybe he could have been the one Xemnas was speaking to in the room of sleep. And since he's not part of the first organization but still is a nobody, pull an opposite anagram where we take the X out of Xehanort and thus make his name "Another" and this would tie in nicely with one of the passwords to get in the room of sleep being "Another". Hell maybe the room of sleep could tie into XH and Xemnas heart fragments and their eventual restoration or something.

 

[aspenvenom619]

In KH3D, goofy remarks that riku and sora jump through time. When does this happen? I know in coded and COM they retread the past, but those are projections and not like what ASoD does

EDIT: I guess Timeless River counts, but in that case why is Pete able to circumvent all the rules XH had to abide by?

 

[Memory Master]

In KH3D, goofy remarks that riku and sora jump through time. When does this happen? I know in coded and COM they retread the past, but those are projections and not like what ASoD does

Well if I understood Yen Sid right, then the Destiny Islands at the begining of the game wasn't created from Sora and Riku's dreams, but it was actually Destiny Islands in the past and on the night of the storm when it fell to the heartless and thus went into sleep in the dark realm until it was restored at the end of KH1. Basically when DI in the past fell to darkness they used that to enter the dream worlds of the worlds still sleeping in the present...or something like that. Yet again another reason we didn't need time travel in this series.

 

[aspenvenom619]

Well if I understood Yen Sid right, then the Destiny Islands at the begining of the game wasn't created from Sora and Riku's dreams, but it was actually Destiny Islands in the past and on the night of the storm when it fell to the heartless and thus went into sleep in the dark realm until it was restored at the end of KH1. Basically when DI in the past fell to darkness they used that to enter the dream worlds of the worlds still sleeping in the present...or something like that. Yet again another reason we didn't need time travel in this series.

You're right, Xigbar mentions that. It's horribly vague though, and adds even more erroneous detail and confusion. So basically Ansem uses that point in time to hijack the realm of sleep. But how are riku and sora moved through time in that way?

 

[Marx15]

You're right, Xigbar mentions that. It's horribly vague though, and adds even more erroneous detail and confusion. So basically Ansem uses that point in time to hijack the realm of sleep. But how are riku and sora moved through time in that way?

The way I see it, is that within the RoL, Sora and Riku are unconscious during their test. It is their consciousnesses that are sent to Destiny Islands.

You can't have the body to travel through time. Sora and Riku's consciousnesses went through time to their past Destiny Islands selves before it was plunged into darkness.

That is why Sora and Riku appear as their younger versions, because it is their past selves traversing the RoS. It's their past selves with their present state of mind. Sounds a little confusing.....