KH3 Gameplay again.

[Violet Pluto]

Well didn't expect that a tech would be found like this, and it's a combo reset which changes the flow of battle completely. My goodness, you obviously need some execution to pull this off, but this seems amazing.

 

[Katsagu]

Keyblade switching like this is extremely satisfying, but also seems to break the game a bit. The combos seem to go on forever.

Osaka should have implemented quick keyblade switching in the game from the beginning in my opinion, they could have balanced it (keep the combo counter going between switches) and it would make the gameplay even better.

 

[Somnus cealum]

im so happy this in the game

 

[Deliverance]

Never in my life have I played an action game where the simple act of changing weapons was so needlessly complicated.

 

[Cumguardian69]

Holy shit this changes literally everything about KH3...

 

[NemesisSP]

Never in my life have I played an action game where the simple act of changing weapons was so needlessly complicated.

Metal Gear Rising's weapon switching is far more complicated and much more tedious.

 

[Deliverance]

Metal Gear Rising's weapon switching is far more complicated and much more tedious.

Nah, MGR just uses the same menu switching system a lot of early action games had. You’re not expected to change weapons mid-combo. It’s not ideal but at least when you equip the weapon you actually get to use it right away. KH3 makes you work for each individual transformation (that’s only usable for a limited time!), and if you want to use them efficiently in combos you gotta do this shit? It’s ridiculous.

 

[Violet Pluto]

Nah, MGR just uses the same menu switching system a lot of early action games had. You’re not expected to change weapons mid-combo. It’s not ideal but at least when you equip the weapon you actually get to use it right away. KH3 makes you work for each individual transformation (that’s only usable for a limited time!), and if you want to use them efficiently in combos you gotta do this shit? It’s ridiculous.

I wouldn't say that KH3 is supposed to have weapon switching mid-combo either. It's more fun, but I genuinely think that they made it the slow switch mambo on purpose.

 

[NemesisSP]

Nah, MGR just uses the same menu switching system a lot of early action games had. You’re not expected to change weapons mid-combo. It’s not ideal but at least when you equip the weapon you actually get to use it right away. KH3 makes you work for each individual transformation (that’s only usable for a limited time!), and if you want to use them efficiently in combos you gotta do this shit? It’s ridiculous.

Yeah, duh it's not supposed to. I'm talking about that games weapon switching exploit. Look it up, there are people who have figured out how to do it. And it is a tedious exploit, but has high reward value with how it makes combos even more lively.

And yeah, like Violet Pluto just said, you're not supposed to do this. It's just something someone figured out you could do. It's why its an exploit. Something the developers clearly didn't intend. I'd also argue there isn't supposed to have form change combos either because the weapon switching is just so you can have additional options in combat, but it's not for combo'ing. As shown here, that would completely break the game. After all, this isn't that kind of action game by default. That people can combo with them if they figure it out is just a bonus.

 

[Squood!]

 

[Deliverance]

I wouldn't say that KH3 is supposed to have weapon switching mid-combo either. It's more fun, but I genuinely think that they made it the slow switch mambo on purpose.

Switching literally saves your place in a combo. What other purpose could that have except to encourage mid-combo switching? Nothing else does that so I doubt it was unintentional. There’s no point implementing real-time switching otherwise.

Yeah, duh it's not supposed to. I'm talking about that games weapon switching exploit. Look it up, there are people who have figured out how to do it. And it is a tedious exploit, but has high reward value with how it makes combos even more lively.

And yeah, like Violet Pluto just said, you're not supposed to do this. It's just something someone figured out you could do. It's why its an exploit. Something the developers clearly didn't intend. I'd also argue there isn't supposed to have form change combos either because the weapon switching is just so you can have additional options in combat, but it's not for combo'ing. As shown here, that would completely break the game. After all, this isn't that kind of action game by default. That people can combo with them if they figure it out is just a bonus.

I actually wasn’t aware of that about MGR. I tried to look it up but I couldn’t find anything. If it’s anything like KH3’s exploit then it’s just as stupid and it shouldn’t be necessary. Depth comes from meaningful decisions not complex inputs.

And I know this is an exploit, I used it to highlight how bad the intended system is. If mid-combo switching was unintentional, then the designers flat out do not understand the purpose of real-time switching. Using it in combos is literally the point.

 

[NemesisSP]

Switching literally saves your place in a combo. What other purpose could that have except to encourage mid-combo switching? Nothing else does that so I doubt it was unintentional. There’s no point implementing real-time switching otherwise.


I actually wasn’t aware of that about MGR. I tried to look it up but I couldn’t find anything. If it’s anything like KH3’s exploit then it’s just as stupid and it shouldn’t be necessary. Depth comes from meaningful decisions not complex inputs.

And I know this is an exploit, I used it to highlight how bad the intended system is. If mid-combo switching was unintentional, then the designers flat out do not understand the purpose of real-time switching. Using it in combos is literally the point.

... you're storing it for later if you want to save it for more difficult enemies. That's the intended purpose of the weapon switching, so that you can save a form change for later. That's all. It's not for combos. If it was, the gameplay system would be optimized to do that. That people find you can use them for combos is just a "bonus".

 

[Launchpad]

Yo, they should just patch this bug and add a full course bonus that lets you have fast switching for free.

 

[Deliverance]

... you're storing it for later if you want to save it for more difficult enemies. That's the intended purpose of the weapon switching, so that you can save a form change for later. That's all. It's not for combos. If it was, the gameplay system would be optimized to do that. That people find you can use them for combos is just a "bonus".

Are you aware that if the game truly is meant to work that way it actually makes it look worse, not better? That it means the designers intentionally limited the combat for no benefits whatsoever?

 

[NemesisSP]

Are you aware that if the game truly is meant to work that way it actually makes it look worse, not better? That it means the designers intentionally limited the combat for no benefits whatsoever?

That's a matter of opinion, not a fact. Especially after the many fixes to the game have actually, definitely, made the game better by fixing many of the flaws people actually complained about.

 

[Launchpad]

I definitely understand the position that faster, free switching would be more fun to tool around with and make the game feel better, especially if it'd keep your place in the combo so you can weave things together more fluently, but it makes sense for KH3's dev cycle that they didn't.

There were a lot of things that had to be made in KH3 and its subsequent DLC. I'd love to play with free, instant weapon switching, but if that's made available, every transition should be tested between every form change in every stage of the combo. Even with the relatively modest pool of transformations that currently exists, that's a lot of work.

If it's too fast and free, or buggy, and traps bosses without hitting Revenge Value, then it breaks Kingdom Hearts. While the line is sometimes hard to find, KH is not a style based character action game like DMC. At it's best, KH creates each move and combination with an eye towards utility over stylish variety. This is why each shotlock has different damage properties, each type of move contributes a specific amount towards revenge value, so on and so forth.

We'd gain a lot of style and see lots of sick webms and compilations if switching was instant, but there's got to be some tested reason why it isn't, at this point. Listen, they added cancel windows to Triple Rush and Speed Slash. They're watching and listening. I'm sure it's been discussed and looked at, but they made the decision to keep it out for a reason.

 

[Deliverance]

That's a matter of opinion, not a fact. Especially after the many fixes to the game have actually, definitely, made the game better by fixing many of the flaws people actually complained about.

Feel free to explain how having it work this way benefits the gameplay.

 

[NemesisSP]

Feel free to explain how having it work this way benefits the gameplay.

It seems the previous post from Launchpad already did that for me.

 

[Deliverance]

I definitely understand the position that faster, free switching would be more fun to tool around with and make the game feel better, especially if it'd keep your place in the combo so you can weave things together more fluently, but it makes sense for KH3's dev cycle that they didn't.

There were a lot of things that had to be made in KH3 and its subsequent DLC. I'd love to play with free, instant weapon switching, but if that's made available, every transition should be tested between every form change in every stage of the combo. Even with the relatively modest pool of transformations that currently exists, that's a lot of work.

If it's too fast and free, or buggy, and traps bosses without hitting Revenge Value, then it breaks Kingdom Hearts. While the line is sometimes hard to find, KH is not a style based character action game like DMC. At it's best, KH creates each move and combination with an eye towards utility over stylish variety. This is why each shotlock has different damage properties, each type of move contributes a specific amount towards revenge value, so on and so forth.

We'd gain a lot of style and see lots of sick webms and compilations if switching was instant, but there's got to be some tested reason why it isn't, at this point. Listen, they added cancel windows to Triple Rush and Speed Slash. They're watching and listening. I'm sure it's been discussed and looked at, but they made the decision to keep it out for a reason.

It’s obviously possible that they couldn’t get it to work because of dev issues. That doesn’t change that it’s a flaw. Do you think all those old action games made you go through a menu to switch weapons because the devs wanted it to be that way? Of course not. It was because of technical limitations. Memory constraints, animation issues, etc. Those devs knew that it wasn’t ideal and so they made sequels that allowed switching mid-combo. Real-time switching was created for that exact purpose. But people are seriously trying to argue that KH3’s limited switching is intentional and acting as if that alone makes it okay.

KH fans like to claim that KH isn’t a ‘DMC-style’ action game. But then what kind of action game is it? So many people have the misconception that DMC and the like are part of this separate genre or subgenre of action. That if you’re not on that level of depth, you’re not that kind of action game.

Understand this: Devil May Cry 1 is the precursor of modern action games. That means that every single action game since is derivative of DMC to some extent, including KH. That doesn’t mean that they all play the same. MGR isn’t about being stylish. Ninja Gaiden isn’t about being stylish. Wonderful 101 isn’t about being stylish. But just like KH, they share DMC’s focus on fast-paced combat and reflexes. And just like any other genre, there can exist games with differing levels of complexity within it.

If KH adds multiple weapons, just like DMC. And allows weapon switching, just like DMC. I’m gonna compare it to DMC. Because it set the standard for that feature. The hypocrisy here is the amount of people who talk about how they think 3 is better than all the previous games because of things like perfect guarding and combo canceling (things taken directly from those action games), only to turn around and say KH isn’t like those action games.

It seems the previous post from Launchpad already did that for me.

His explanation was that they tried but couldn’t make it work. That’s the exact opposite of your position. I asked you to explain how the gameplay is improved by not having mid-combo switching. ‘It’s too much work’ is an excuse, one that’s been addressed for years.

 

[NemesisSP]

Except Kingdom Hearts ISN'T like DMC, at all, it doesn't even come close in many ways. The fact that you give a shallow comparison to DMC shows you don't understand the differences between the two.

YES, Devil May Cry 1 was the precursor to the action game template, I know because I was there from the beginning when it first came out on the PS2. However, DMC came out while Kingdom Hearts was already at least 2 years in development as it started in February, and we know that Nomura wanted it to be an action platformer from the beginning. KH was likely not inspired by DMC, therefore comparing those two is not a good comparison to begin with. Plus KH1 is an action-platformer RPG while DMC is pure action mixed with gothic horror.

DMC is a game series about looking cool with elements of fighting games and old cabinet arcade games that would score you and how well you did on the games. That's why the combos are done via button combination with the joy stick. The games are ranking you on your style, on not getting hit or damaged and in essence just being as cool and deadly as possible. And from 3 onward, it's also a much faster paced action game where you can also redo any stage over and over again to get better scores. That's why weapon switching is not more prevalent there, because it was something actually built into the system and around it, as switching weapons on the fly is just another extension on the idea of doing cool combos. While there are things like Devil Trigger, its primary use is simply to add extra power to your combos, and in Nero's case, make his Devil Bringer moves even more potent. The first four games may have had items to use in combat like healing stars and holy water, but actually using the items tended to lower your score because they aren't *cool*. And yes, the games can be hard, but that means you have to be very careful and precise with these combos so you aren't broken out of them and lose your style ranking. Doing extended combos with various different weapons, switching them out instantly, is all for one thing in the end and that's extending the damn Style Rank during that encounter and never letting it drop, EVER!

Kingdom Hearts is not like that and it never has been, especially when it comes to the major numbered games. Yes, avoiding getting hit is very much something you want to do, but it wasn't necessarily feasible or even intended to be that kind game since it's also much slower in the first game. Speed became more viable in KH2, but the major difference with KH2 and by extension KH3's gameplay is the various other combat mechanics. DMC's combo is all about physical combos, with occasional use from Dante's styles, or Nero's Devil Breakers, they tend to still be more focused on actual combos. KH has summons, drive forms, reaction commands, situation commands, flow motion, attraction flow, team attacks. All of these are intended to give different kinds of options for combat than just physical. That's why the combat modifiers don't rely on the same kind of fighting game system as DMC, rather you just press either square or circle to branch into a different combo, but it's not more expansive than. And that's because the game developers want you to use the other mechanics, especially on Critical Mode, which is where the magic system in particular really shines through in KH2FM and why pre-patch the grand magic situation commands were more effective than either Attraction Flow or Form Changes, even though the latter tends to be much more fun in many ways. And then there's Revenge Values in KH2 and KH3, where enemies will break out of a long combo and become more aggressive means its not a viable tactic to do with the gameplay system they have in place. As the exploit video shows, this so utterly breaks the game it arguably loses much of its appeal to many fans, who want a good challenge from KH on Critical mode and when fighting the bonus bosses like the Data/Limitcut Battles, Lingering Will or Yozora. It's why BBS Young Xehanort was considered a bad super boss because that fight wasn't about using all the games options to beat him, but rather just survive him long enough to Thunder Surge him into oblivion. Exploits like this one, while fun, go against what the gameplay is meant to be.

And like I said before, weapon switching in this game is not about extending combos, it's about storing Form Changes. This is because form changes can be very effective to start a fight with, especially they cannot be extended like Drive Forms in two. And don't bring up Form Extenders, those are completely different from what I'm talking about in this context. This is also especially true if you're running low on a Form Change that has two tiers to it and you just want to make sure you have three situation arrows before switching back to that Keyblade to get the Form Change charge. That's why you're only allowed to equip three Keyblades and why the Critical Booster slows down your situation commands (initially). The fact you have to work to get these Form Changes means it's not worth comboing them.

But this is the point of differences between DMC and KH and why they are different action games. DMC is all about fast paced combos where you're relishing the combat and how cool you are, meaning rushing through it, while it could give you a good score on time, it wouldn't grant you much stylish points. Kingdom Hearts' combat, especially on Critical Modes, is all about quickly killing enemies to move on to the next objective, or when it comes to grinding for exp or synthesis material. As the game also has stuff outside of combat, since it is an Action RPG not a full on action game, you are neither scored for regular encounters nor can you so easily repeat levels. Hence why grand magic was such a game breaker for how quickly it could take down enemies, thus ensuring you could get more EXP or materials quicker. The game also doesn't even actually rank you in the Battle Report at the end, because it's not that kind of action game where it grades your performance.

I could go on on the differences between these two games and why your comparison is a shallow, but I'm gonna guess that you will refuse to listen. You are so obsessed with wanting the KH game to be like DMC, you are forgetting that they are different genres, have different overall demographs (even if they may overlap at times) and finally, are just made differently. If the staff of KH3 wanted the game to be an action game like DMC, they would have done. But they wanted it to be, shock of shocks, like a Kingdom Hearts game! Maybe in the future we could explore something more similar with actual, real Form Change combos, but this is not the game to do it. It wasn't designed to be that kind of action game, it was designed to be a KH action game. End of story. If you want to keep complaining about, I have nothing I want to say about it besides this and if you don't want to listen to these reasons, than I do not think I or anyone else will ever give you an answer you're satisfied with.