KH2 Without Nobodies?



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Amadeus

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I think about how KH2 was a pretty decent ending for the series from time to time, but the Organization always throws a wrench in it being a clean ending. The whole Nobody thing really needed to be explained more, and even if they had made Days a clean midquel as well (clean as in no wild retcons -- I love you, Xion, but you really complicated the lore!), there would still be a hunger for the original personas of.... everyone, and how they lost their hearts, etc. So what if Nobodies had never been introduced?

I was thinking that CoM could play out largely the same by just painting the Organization as some shady bad guys without an existential crisis (ie as they were in the game, basically), and then Naminé and her abilities could be kind of... hand-waved, for lack of a better term. All in all, Nobodies weren't a huge plot point in CoM. But in KH2, they really take center stage as the main antagonists of the game. How could the Organization members' motives be explained and justified without their core goal of regaining their lost hearts? Do you think just making them beings of darkness would have worked? Would KH2 need a different main villain altogether? I personally think that the Organization could have been made into another group of people pursuing the darkness in order to keep the main conflict against the Heartless; that would have made KH2 really repetitive as a sequel to KH1, but it would have spared us the labyrinthine lore that we have today. Don't get me wrong, I love the series as it is, but I always wonder how things could have been if Nomura's storytelling was more conventional....
 

Zettaflare

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If Nobodies didn't exist that would have meant no Roxas. His removal would have definitely changed KH2's plot dramatically.

Aside from that I think it could have worked with the Organization as just beings of darkness. Although if they went that route I suspect the series would have ended at KH2.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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If Nobodies didn't exist that would have meant no Roxas. His removal would have definitely changed KH2's plot dramatically.

Aside from that I think it could have worked with the Organization as just beings of darkness. Although if they went that route I suspect the series would have ended at KH2.
Not necessarily, I don't have any sources available and I doubt the actual draft was ever posted online somewhere so maybe that is also my memory being fuzzy but I do remember reading somewhere (maybe even in an essay here on KHInsider back in 2004/2005 before I actually decided to become a member years later) that in the very first rough concept drafts Roxas (or the Blonde haired kid/BHK as his name wasn't decided upon) wasn't a Nobody at all but a normal boy which would have been introduced to the overall original cast who was a "Guardian" of sorts and therefore had two Keyblades as well as being a double agent working for both the Organisation and DiZ with the confrontation between him and Riku (who's also between light and dark) being about where his true loyalties lie and the BHK being implied to be influenced to question both his employers due to Sora's heart/presence and a connection between them.

Strictly spoken the current "saga" could have ended with KH 2 just fine as most of the open questions and mysteries from KH 1 and CoM had been addressed in KH 2.
What came after KH 2 was an expansion to background issues and the main villain which eventually broadened the universe as a whole but had only on the sidelines directly to do with the events of KH 1-CoM-KH 2.
I remember in the Ultimania for KH2 FM Nomura even stating that the scope/universe of KH will expand more and go partially in different directions with what was to come (back then he was mostly speaking about BBS and the new secret ending of KH 2 FM).
I also recall early theories about the old man wearing Ansem SoD's clothes being a different antagonist/villain but who is connected to the main baddie from KH 1/KH 2 and Apprentice Xehanort.
Sticking to that and thus make this "Master Xehanort" a new villain instead of the whole possession shtick and vast intertwined plans and conspiracies going back to one single overarching villain could have easily make for a new saga already starting with BBS.

Whenever there was a too forced in direct reference/connection to KH 1-CoM-KH 2 it was handled not very coherently (looking especially at you, last part of 0.2 with the totally unnecessary inclusion of Aqua in KH 1's original ending which helped neither her as a character nor the overall narrative).
 

KeybladeKnightQ

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The Nobodies where not really what complicated KH2 plot it was their lack of true involvement in the game till the second half with the first being as people have stated feeling like “Filler”. I don’t know what we didn’t know about Nobodies in KH2 Yen Sid, Saix, Naimine, and Diz pretty much explained all there was to know about being a nobody and the only things we learned in later games was that they can become whole again when both the persons nobody and heartless have been destroyed (which even then is debatable as Nomura revealed this in the Directors Report back when KH2 was released) and that Nobodies can regrow their hearts which some people would argue was just a straight up retcon. KH2 no matter what people say about its plot was told so that everything could have ended with a everything completely explained and known expect for the many mysteries revolving around the keyblade and its origins and how it worked. I can’t imagine or want to imagine a KH2 or KH universe without Nobodies their overall idea and design being these tragic creatures that have lost an important part of themselves, that feel incomplete, that don’t even have true existence or meaning and all they have left are their memories of said past craving for completion but ultimately inevitably just doomed to oblivion is such a tragic and intriguing concept that fits so well with the series and has many relatable real world prevalence that can resonate with so many people. They are like the only enemies with any real actual depth and have some tragedy aside from the rest which aren’t much more than just monsters that crave destruction and hearts.
 
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raccoonscity

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The Nobodies where not really what complicated KH2 plot it was their lack of true involvement in the game till the second half with the first being as people have stated feeling like “Filler”.
Pretty much, yeah. Yen Sid gives us that exposition dump (as well as having it explained to us through Namine and the Secret Ansem reports) within a couple of minutes after to switching over to Sora. I don't think any of the Nobodies -- especially Xion -- complicated the lore, just expanded on it and added a counterpoint to the Heartless.
 

Rodin

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I think about how KH2 was a pretty decent ending for the series from time to time, but the Organization always throws a wrench in it being a clean ending. The whole Nobody thing really needed to be explained more, and even if they had made Days a clean midquel as well (clean as in no wild retcons -- I love you, Xion, but you really complicated the lore!), there would still be a hunger for the original personas of.... everyone, and how they lost their hearts, etc. So what if Nobodies had never been introduced?

I was thinking that CoM could play out largely the same by just painting the Organization as some shady bad guys without an existential crisis (ie as they were in the game, basically), and then Naminé and her abilities could be kind of... hand-waved, for lack of a better term. All in all, Nobodies weren't a huge plot point in CoM. But in KH2, they really take center stage as the main antagonists of the game. How could the Organization members' motives be explained and justified without their core goal of regaining their lost hearts? Do you think just making them beings of darkness would have worked? Would KH2 need a different main villain altogether? I personally think that the Organization could have been made into another group of people pursuing the darkness in order to keep the main conflict against the Heartless; that would have made KH2 really repetitive as a sequel to KH1, but it would have spared us the labyrinthine lore that we have today. Don't get me wrong, I love the series as it is, but I always wonder how things could have been if Nomura's storytelling was more conventional....
I think you are missing the forest from the trees by complaining about the nobodies.

Without the nobodies you would have to rethink the organization and why they do what they do. You also would have to rethink Roxas's character arc as well. Xemnas would have the most changes because without him being a nobody he couldn't be another version of Seeker of Darkness. Granted he has a different VA and a different look so it's not that big of a stretch.

You would have to create a new faction to take their place or just have the organization be another group of darkness user. That isn't far off from how they are already so you would have to do a deeper dive into the individual members and establish why they are a different group of villians from the disney council.

Beyond the obvious of course.:cool:
 
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Amadeus

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I think you are missing the forest from the trees by complaining about the nobodies.

Without the nobodies you would have to rethink the organization and why they do what they do. You also would have to rethink Roxas's character arc as well. Xemnas would have the most changes because without him being a nobody he couldn't be another version of Seeker of Darkness.
I was proposing a hypothetical. I really love the Nobodies and how they bridge the gap between darkness and light with a literal grey area of morality and motives. And I know Roxas and the Organization would have changed in nature, and that's really what I'm trying to get at here: how the series would have changed without them. Nobodies weren't an original part of the plot, because in KH1 you had the Keyblade and co. representing light, and the Heartless representing darkness; there was no hint of anything else until the Xemnas fight in FM. I guess I'm taking this a little like Mass Effect 3, because that game took a turn not entirely unprecedented by the first two games, but ultimately in a different direction from what players had come to expect during the lead-up. KH1 set us up for another conflict between light and darkness, which we of course got, and CoM set us up for these mysterious Nobodies, which we also got, just in an arguably kind of curveball way in terms of plot significance—CoM wasn't even supposed to be integral to the plot when it was first announced/released, as far as the players knew. And I disagree that Xemnas couldn't have been another Seeker of Darkness if he wasn't a Nobody; he wouldn't be a direct variant of Xehanort anymore, but he could have ended up being a character like Braig/Xigbar, more of a promoted follower.

Not necessarily, I don't have any sources available and I doubt the actual draft was ever posted online somewhere so maybe that is also my memory being fuzzy but I do remember reading somewhere (maybe even in an essay here on KHInsider back in 2004/2005 before I actually decided to become a member years later) that in the very first rough concept drafts Roxas (or the Blonde haired kid/BHK as his name wasn't decided upon) wasn't a Nobody at all but a normal boy which would have been introduced to the overall original cast who was a "Guardian" of sorts and therefore had two Keyblades as well as being a double agent working for both the Organisation and DiZ with the confrontation between him and Riku (who's also between light and dark) being about where his true loyalties lie and the BHK being implied to be influenced to question both his employers due to Sora's heart/presence and a connection between them.
This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. I know none of the above is really confirmable, but Roxas could have still been involved without being Sora's Nobody; there could have been another connection, maybe along with the lines of what ultimately became Ventus' story. In fact, if he was a thoroughly anomalous being of the in-between (in that he was unique in status as a being without a heart, rather than one of very many when you account for the 13 members and all the lesser Nobodies), I think he could have had a really interesting arc centering on what it means to earn or grow a heart, rather than simply regaining (or, in Xehanort's case, transplanting) one. In fact, the Organization could have been Nobodies in that scenario and Roxas could have allied with them in an attempt to gain a heart he never had to begin with, as he would be able to understand their drive to have hearts, sans remembering what having one was like. The double agent role could be preserved by having him be drawn to Sora because it was established in KH1 that Sora has a strong heart; perhaps Roxas would hope that Sora could somehow help him get a heart?
 

Rodin

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I was proposing a hypothetical. I really love the Nobodies and how they bridge the gap between darkness and light with a literal grey area of morality and motives. And I know Roxas and the Organization would have changed in nature, and that's really what I'm trying to get at here: how the series would have changed without them. Nobodies weren't an original part of the plot, because in KH1 you had the Keyblade and co. representing light, and the Heartless representing darkness; there was no hint of anything else until the Xemnas fight in FM. I guess I'm taking this a little like Mass Effect 3, because that game took a turn not entirely unprecedented by the first two games, but ultimately in a different direction from what players had come to expect during the lead-up. KH1 set us up for another conflict between light and darkness, which we of course got, and CoM set us up for these mysterious Nobodies, which we also got, just in an arguably kind of curveball way in terms of plot significance—CoM wasn't even supposed to be integral to the plot when it was first announced/released, as far as the players knew. And I disagree that Xemnas couldn't have been another Seeker of Darkness if he wasn't a Nobody; he wouldn't be a direct variant of Xehanort anymore, but he could have ended up being a character like Braig/Xigbar, more of a promoted follower.



This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. I know none of the above is really confirmable, but Roxas could have still been involved without being Sora's Nobody; there could have been another connection, maybe along with the lines of what ultimately became Ventus' story. In fact, if he was a thoroughly anomalous being of the in-between (in that he was unique in status as a being without a heart, rather than one of very many when you account for the 13 members and all the lesser Nobodies), I think he could have had a really interesting arc centering on what it means to earn or grow a heart, rather than simply regaining (or, in Xehanort's case, transplanting) one. In fact, the Organization could have been Nobodies in that scenario and Roxas could have allied with them in an attempt to gain a heart he never had to begin with, as he would be able to understand their drive to have hearts, sans remembering what having one was like. The double agent role could be preserved by having him be drawn to Sora because it was established in KH1 that Sora has a strong heart; perhaps Roxas would hope that Sora could somehow help him get a heart?
There was an ambitious fanfic called Kingdom RWBY and it gave me a few ideas for the thread. Its a reimaging of KH1 with RWBY characters filling in for FF and the Grimm filling for the heartless. The author told me she was thinking about replacing the nobodies with creatures of light called the Phantasms.

I'd probably do the same and the Organisation is more like religious cult. KH has tried to show "light is not inherently good nor darkness inherently evil" so I'd push that more.

I'd prefer a more standalone series so the whole xehanort overarching mega plot is lessened. Its still a thing but not the main plot of the series.
 

Ballad of Caius

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There still would have been a KH3. Sora defeated Xehanort's Heartless in in KH1; then his Nobody in KH2. The thought of a completed Xehanort would have floated around, so the question of whether or not Xehanort returned was still up in the air.
 

KeybladeKnightQ

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There was an ambitious fanfic called Kingdom RWBY and it gave me a few ideas for the thread. Its a reimaging of KH1 with RWBY characters filling in for FF and the Grimm filling for the heartless. The author told me she was thinking about replacing the nobodies with creatures of light called the Phantasms.

I'd probably do the same and the Organisation is more like religious cult. KH has tried to show "light is not inherently good nor darkness inherently evil" so I'd push that more.

I'd prefer a more standalone series so the whole xehanort overarching mega plot is lessened. Its still a thing but not the main plot of the series.
What if that was the plot and theme of the next arc/saga? As messed up and flawed the overall Xehanort saga is I still find enjoyment out of the whole concept and idea that everything has all been connected and it does go with the main narrative the series has told since the first game about how all things are connected and that “Destiny is never left to chance” I don’t know if it’s just pure bias or I just like how the events of each KH game has had influence and control over how the others where told making each game feel like an an actual overarching arc rather than having each one feel like one shots with no real consequences to future titles like so many other game series often do. Though I will admit after KH3 I would like a clean slate simple plot again after the whole Xehanort fiasco is finally over. It would show that the series has entered a new saga.
 

Dreaded_Desire62

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What if that was the plot and theme of the next arc/saga? As messed up and flawed the overall Xehanort saga is I still find enjoyment out of the whole concept and idea that everything has all been connected and it does go with the main narrative the series has told since the first game about how all things are connected and that “Destiny is never left to chance” I don’t know if it’s just pure bias or I just like how the events of each KH game has had influence and control over how the others where told making each game feel like an an actual overarching arc rather than having each one feel like one shots with no real consequences to future titles like so many other game series often do. Though I will admit after KH3 I would like a clean slate simple plot again after the whole Xehanort fiasco is finally over. It would show that the series has entered a new saga.
Re:Coded was kind of related to Union Cross and the black book, that was probably the only game where we didn't have to deal with Xehanort and Organization XIII.
 

Rodin

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What if that was the plot and theme of the next arc/saga? As messed up and flawed the overall Xehanort saga is I still find enjoyment out of the whole concept and idea that everything has all been connected and it does go with the main narrative the series has told since the first game about how all things are connected and that “Destiny is never left to chance” I don’t know if it’s just pure bias or I just like how the events of each KH game has had influence and control over how the others where told making each game feel like an an actual overarching arc rather than having each one feel like one shots with no real consequences to future titles like so many other game series often do. Though I will admit after KH3 I would like a clean slate simple plot again after the whole Xehanort fiasco is finally over. It would show that the series has entered a new saga.
I was just responding to the OP's hypothetical on how KH2 would play out without the nobodies. I'm pretty sure Nomura has plans for that group but without bringing in the nobodies he would have to move that faction up or come up with a new one.

My last comment was more to my dissatisfaction with the Xehanort saga. I'm not against KH having an overaching story I just feel it hasn't done it well so I would rather tell more standalone stories.
 

Dreaded_Desire62

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I was just responding to the OP's hypothetical on how KH2 would play out without the nobodies. I'm pretty sure Nomura has plans for that group but without bringing in the nobodies he would have to move that faction up or come up with a new one.

My last comment was more to my dissatisfaction with the Xehanort saga. I'm not against KH having an overaching story I just feel it hasn't done it well so I would rather tell more standalone stories.
It probably wouldn't have worked out so well. Nomura could have just made the new faction up on Final Fantasy bosses such as Sephiroth, Kafka, and so on.
 

Rodin

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It probably wouldn't have worked out so well. Nomura could have just made the new faction up on Final Fantasy bosses such as Sephiroth, Kafka, and so on.
maybe/maybe not.

I don't really see them using the FF villians as a group outside of Dissidia. It would overpower the original villians and the disney villians in universe and in promotional materials. I could see them as a small third faction like Pete and Malificient or one off bosses like Chernabog in the End of Worlds.

Nomura wants the original lore to be the focus so I could see an original villian for each of the games with a Disney or FF villian as a foil or competing force.
 

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Not necessarily, I don't have any sources available and I doubt the actual draft was ever posted online somewhere so maybe that is also my memory being fuzzy but I do remember reading somewhere (maybe even in an essay here on KHInsider back in 2004/2005 before I actually decided to become a member years later) that in the very first rough concept drafts Roxas (or the Blonde haired kid/BHK as his name wasn't decided upon) wasn't a Nobody at all but a normal boy which would have been introduced to the overall original cast who was a "Guardian" of sorts and therefore had two Keyblades as well as being a double agent working for both the Organisation and DiZ with the confrontation between him and Riku (who's also between light and dark) being about where his true loyalties lie and the BHK being implied to be influenced to question both his employers due to Sora's heart/presence and a connection between them.

Strictly spoken the current "saga" could have ended with KH 2 just fine as most of the open questions and mysteries from KH 1 and CoM had been addressed in KH 2.
What came after KH 2 was an expansion to background issues and the main villain which eventually broadened the universe as a whole but had only on the sidelines directly to do with the events of KH 1-CoM-KH 2.
I remember in the Ultimania for KH2 FM Nomura even stating that the scope/universe of KH will expand more and go partially in different directions with what was to come (back then he was mostly speaking about BBS and the new secret ending of KH 2 FM).
I also recall early theories about the old man wearing Ansem SoD's clothes being a different antagonist/villain but who is connected to the main baddie from KH 1/KH 2 and Apprentice Xehanort.
Sticking to that and thus make this "Master Xehanort" a new villain instead of the whole possession shtick and vast intertwined plans and conspiracies going back to one single overarching villain could have easily make for a new saga already starting with BBS.

Whenever there was a too forced in direct reference/connection to KH 1-CoM-KH 2 it was handled not very coherently (looking especially at you, last part of 0.2 with the totally unnecessary inclusion of Aqua in KH 1's original ending which helped neither her as a character nor the overall narrative).
As for me would have lost a really touching and tragic story of Roxas.
And 0.2 in fact and should not be something important.
This is just a demo version of KH3.
 

Rodin

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Chain of memories is probably easier to disentangle from the nobodies/organization 13 than Days would be. Most of the context for the Castle Six's actions come in later games so they are pretty malleable. Days on the other hand you would have to think about in concert with 2's plot.
 
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