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KH2 Vanilla vs. KH3 Re Mind



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What was the better experience?


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Absent

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I agree with that, but my point was more in general not KH. Like for example it's weird to say that Pokemon Gen 1 and 2 are lesser than 3 because they run slower or don't have Running Shoes. Another example you could make an argument that gen 4 games(2006+) have an atrociously slow battle system despite being the newest entries. Newer games have the advantage of using new tech that the older ones didn't have. On the other hand, writing and storytelling as a whole is more accessible and consistent.
 

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I agree with that, but my point was more in general not KH. Like for example it's weird to say that Pokemon Gen 1 and 2 are lesser than 3 because they run slower or don't have Running Shoes. Another example you could make an argument that gen 4 games(2006+) have an atrociously slow battle system despite being the newest entries. Newer games have the advantage of using new tech that the older ones didn't have. On the other hand, writing and storytelling as a whole is more accessible and consistent.
I often feel the exact same way. I've never been a fan of judging old games by modern standards. I've seen the same thing happen with Sonic Adventure 1, which is by all rights, a mold breaking game for the 3D platforming genre seeing as it was released in 1998. Of course it has multiple valid criticisms, but I'm not about to lay waste to the game because it has some glitches and a funky camera, Mario 64 is on the same level but that's a "masterpiece"

In fact it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Rarely do games age timelessly, because the nature of them means mechanics are constantly improving, therefore constantly out dating previous entries, but I can't hold it against those games, not at all.
 

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However, in KH2 you wouldn’t be able to watch the cutscenes in TWTNW because the whole game is building the story up till the grand finale that is TWTNW. Without playing the rest of KH2, you wouldn’t be able to understand the ending segment.
I feel like watching the thousand Heartless war is...really the only thing needed to understand the KH2 story. There's really nothing relevant throughout the entire game except that and the ending. I mean...there's the beginning with Roxas I guess, but in KH2 is a character we BARELY understand. The takeaway is just....he was in the Organization and friends with Axel. Days gave us a better understanding of Axel & Roxas' character. Not 2.

Oh and Namine...we don't know who she is but...she exists apparently.
 

Henryp

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KH3 ReMind, I'm also in the train that said KH2 vanilla was trash. KH2FM, which most of non.-japanese players only tasted 10 years after KH2, improves "some" things, but still only shines in the critical post-game content. While I do agree that some things are expected to be improved because 2006 vs. 2019, Ps2 vs. Ps4, etc, I always strike me how people defend things that could have been in KH2 (exploration, story, pacing) indepently of how old is the game.

GEEK TIME.

I am a researcher and I didn't thought I would use this information never but... I counted how much time KH2 and KH3 actually use for the main plot. Seeing people previously comparing those things, I'll give my immature research.

_____________
KH2FM runs for a total of around 13 hours of cutscenes, including optional worlds. The total time of scenes that take place outside Disney worlds is around 6 hours, being the 46% of the cutscenes. Around 3 hours are found between the prologue until Sora leaves HB the first time. The middle point (which actually isn't that middle as it happen later in game) runs for 50 minutes and the endgame runs for 1 hour and a half more or less. Around 30 minutes or original cutscenes can be found spread between the disney worlds, corresponding mainly to visits to TT and HB. Regarding the Disney worlds, as it is really difficult to meassure what we consider what is "main plot", I decided to only take into account when an OG character interacts with Sora in a Disney world. Maleficent and Pete doesn't count because, at the end of the day, their plot in a Disney world was part of the world itself, not part of the main plot. And I know Space Paranoids also has amazing plot, but I apply the same principle to KH3 to compensate. That being said, KH2FM expends... 11 minutes showing you an organization member in a Disney world. And around 2 minutes showing you Riku.

KH3RM runs for 12 and half hours, more or less. The main plot cutscenes in the base game runs 4 and half hours, and Remind runs for 2:20 hours (1 hour is the KG, but it contains new and old material mixed so it's difficult to count... or I was just bored by then), making a total of almost 7 hours, a 55% of the game. 1 hour and a half are cutscenes spread between the beggining of the game until finishing the last disney world, with 3 hours being the climax and endgame of the story, 2 hours the remind scenario and around half hour limit cut+secret episode. Regarding Disney worlds, again, only taking into consideration direct interaction with the main plot and OG characters, KH3 has almost 50 minutes of cutscenes with an organization member present. 2-3 minutes are dedicated to Yozora in ToyBox. If you want to know, Maleficent appears only 5 minutes troughout the
entire KH3RM.

KH3RM actually uses more hours of main plot and original content that KH2FM. Even base KH3 used a higher proportion of its run time telling things that connect to the main plot. Now, one thing KH2FM had over KH3 vanilla was that the original content represented less "playability" time than KH2, as KG was actually a short world to explore and many of the cutscenes happen in the gummi ship/to other characters. With remind, I've found that now both games run similarly in time, and for the playthorugh I've been watching, the totatility of the disney worlds in both games is pretty similar in both cases, so now that it's not a complain to KH3. Another thing is that KH3 uses more time in sequel baiting than KH2. However, I prefer that to the non-existent plot regarding Maleficent and Pete in KH2 through the first half of KH2 (which again, I found out it is not the first half of the game, but nearly the 70% of it).
______________

In my opinion, I prefer KH3 in any form over KH2 in any form. KH3 has many flaws in the storyline and decisions I wouldn't have taken, but KH2 for me is a mess. The game only makes some sense if knowing CoM but tries to hide CoM ever happened and Roxas, Namine, Diz, all dissapear after the prologe to appear again at the end to resolve something that had zero built up... bruh. KH3 took the contrary approach, by having the main plot for more than half of the game tellign thing the player already knows/figured out but at least it makes sense as the characters did not play bbs, days nor 0.2. Neither are amazing storytelling and aren't the best in the series, but for KH standards I'll put KH3 on the upper half and KH2 below average any day.

In any other aspect, I can only see fair arguments in that combat in KH2 is better. I still prefer KH3 combat, but I see the pros KH2 offers.

Fun fact: Luxord IS Nomura favorite character. Out of all Org. members that appear in disney worlds, he has the longest screen time in both KH2 and KH3.
 

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I think that kh2 vanilla still has a better pacing than kh3 in term of story as well as in term of abilities and character growth.

In term of story, I prefer a slow beginning like roxas in twilight town rather than throwing you into the action of olympus. It allows you to learn the gameplay mechanics slowly and to explore a bit before you begin your journey. If only they had kept 0.2 as the prologue of KH3, this would have been the proper way to begin the game.

In term of gameplay, in kh3, I was confused at the beginning because I wasn't feeling that Sora was progressing. He was already powerful from the beginning. And then, remind throws all the new abilities AFTER you clear the main story. That's too extreme.

So yes, KH3 is better than KH2 for newcomers because they do not waste time and throw you into the action. But for me, I couldn't help but think something was off.
 

Katsagu

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I have a unique perspective having always criticized KH2... It's funny to me that the majority now want to denigrate KH2 in an attempt to "prop up" KH3. I went years telling people how inferior 2 was to 1 and it was a minority opinion to criticize KH2 back then. lol Unfortunately a lot of this just comes across as a fanbase that never wants the newest entry in their favorite franchise to be criticized and if it means tearing down the fanbase's previous Holy Grail, so be it, not that they really ever disliked KH2 or recognized its flaws before the convenience of the moment. I do think KH3 is much better than 2--but it comes with a batch of its own unique flaws as well. I do remember at one point a year or so before KH3 released saying that I looked forward to this moment when KH2 is old news and gets treated like dirt, and yet strangely somehow it all feels bittersweet. :/ I suppose I can empathize with 2 fans now being constantly told how inferior the game is to 3 having been a KH1 fan that was constantly told how inferior that game was to 2 because of shiny new graphics, dual keyblade-wielding, and a new style of gameplay.
I don't think people are denigrating KH 2 to prop up KH 3. In a thread directly comparing both, its normal to focus on the shortcomings of one to explain why one might preffer the other one.

Some people really believe KH 3 is the new Holy Grail of the franchise, they really think that after KH3 the bar has been raised so that KH2 feels that much worse in comparison, when before 3's experience it was the best. And let's be honest, the objective of a sequel is to improve on what came before, so this is not a bad thing.

It's totally understandable if you think 2 is still the best of course, and even 1. Hell I've seen people saying BBS is the best.
 

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I don't know if this means anything, but I will add this (even after saying I thought ReMIND was better).

I played KH2 Vanilla WAY more than I've played KH3ReMIND (or KH3 in general). I don't know if it's because I'm busier these days as I'm older, but something about KH2's "in and out" gameplay in worlds is more enticing for me than KH3's huge worlds that take several hours to beat. I'm the type that will want to beat the world, save, then stop playing for the day over enter the world and save halfway through and come back another day.

Maybe an improvement they can use for later games is combine KH2 and KH3's approach to worlds (and throw in some KH1): Have multiple short visits to huge worlds (gradually opening up the map), that way you can also have specific areas that you need to use the movement capabilities you have early on rather than just gliding/jumping over everything.
 

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I played KH2 Vanilla WAY more than I've played KH3ReMIND (or KH3 in general). I don't know if it's because I'm busier these days as I'm older, but something about KH2's "in and out" gameplay in worlds is more enticing for me than KH3's huge worlds that take several hours to beat. I'm the type that will want to beat the world, save, then stop playing for the day over enter the world and save halfway through and come back another day.

Maybe an improvement they can use for later games is combine KH2 and KH3's approach to worlds (and throw in some KH1): Have multiple short visits to huge worlds (gradually opening up the map), that way you can also have specific areas that you need to use the movement capabilities you have early on rather than just gliding/jumping over everything.
I respect your opinion but I personally disagree and thought that the "in and out" visits to worlds in KH2 felt too quick for me and so weren't as immersive as the KH3 worlds. I've spent a lot more time going back to KH3 (even before Re Mind) to KH2FM and that's largely because I just don't have much fun going through the Disney worlds whereas I enjoy playing through every world in KH3, even if they don't matter, don't have much SDG interaction etc...

That's partly because of the greater length of the world visits in KH3 but also I agree with @Ballad of Caius about the voice acting and dialogue being generally better than KH2. I like to sometimes just watch cutscenes from the games but for KH2 I don't get anything from any of the Disney world cutscenes but there are moments I really like watching in every KH3 world.
 

Ballad of Caius

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What KH2 had going was a climax to the story (1,000 Heartless battle), the culmination of the Japan Team's gameplay and an ending with a sense of closure to the SRK Arc.

The only lacking aspects of KH3 are a climax and a sense of closure, though you have to take into consideration that KH2 didn't have as many arcs as 3 did.
 

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I have to pick vanilla KH2 just because of the far, far stronger impression and experience it left on me. From the story and gameplay to the better use of FF characters and originals worlds to classic Disney still being a big part of it and the opening/ending. All remind did was improve the postgame and had some nice gameplay additions, the base game is still unchanged and quite frankly i already had plenty of issues with it, pretty much making me have no desire in ever wanting to go through it again. So remind wouldn't do anything to fix that for me because improving the postgame can't make up for the rest of the game.
 

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What KH2 had going was a climax to the story (1,000 Heartless battle), the culmination of the Japan Team's gameplay and an ending with a sense of closure to the SRK Arc.

The only lacking aspects of KH3 are a climax and a sense of closure, though you have to take into consideration that KH2 didn't have as many arcs as 3 did.
Imo KH3 had a climax, a pretty good one despite it having major flaws, but imo the climax of KH3 was the only "arc" that it actually offered. The problem was everything else. There was no "rising action" in KH3, instead it left it to all of the other games in the series which wouldn't be terrible on its own but it wasn't - the experience was like watching the 20 hours of filler episodes of Naruto Shippuden before the war arc was finished. I mean, I'm not sure how you define an arc but I felt like there was more going on in KH2 than in KH3.

Also, I know that we're supposed to be comparing RE:mind to KH2 vanilla here, but I cannot forgive the flaws of the combat system in KH3's release. At the risk of sounding like an entitled bitch, attractions completely ruined the combat for me in KH3 and I don't think it's fair to ask me to try to objectively compare the two after they fixed it when the changes came too late for me to properly experience the game.
 

Henryp

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Also, I know that we're supposed to be comparing RE:mind to KH2 vanilla here, but I cannot forgive the flaws of the combat system in KH3's release. At the risk of sounding like an entitled bitch, attractions completely ruined the combat for me in KH3 and I don't think it's fair to ask me to try to objectively compare the two after they fixed it when the changes came too late for me to properly experience the game.
I partially agree with this. Attractions were so poorly implemented I found myself bored even at the sight of adquiring them. However, I am not one of those players who believie that not using a mechanic you don't like means you're handicapping yourself, so L2 was an amazing tool during most of my playthrough and I had a blast playing KH3 onwards. Critial converter came out only 2-3 months after realease, and I love that ability. Also, I had a similar experience with KH2 with some reaction commands, specially on certain bosses. Due to the lack of difficulty both games had at launch, those two mechanics were "too much".
 

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I don't know if this means anything, but I will add this (even after saying I thought ReMIND was better).

I played KH2 Vanilla WAY more than I've played KH3ReMIND (or KH3 in general). I don't know if it's because I'm busier these days as I'm older, but something about KH2's "in and out" gameplay in worlds is more enticing for me than KH3's huge worlds that take several hours to beat. I'm the type that will want to beat the world, save, then stop playing for the day over enter the world and save halfway through and come back another day.

Maybe an improvement they can use for later games is combine KH2 and KH3's approach to worlds (and throw in some KH1): Have multiple short visits to huge worlds (gradually opening up the map), that way you can also have specific areas that you need to use the movement capabilities you have early on rather than just gliding/jumping over everything.
I share the same feelings in regard about how KH2 approched the time and visit of the worlds. I quite like KH1/KH3 approach too, but having more worlds to go is equal to more variety in what we see, which characters we encounter and how many different sceneries we find too.
I don't know exactly WHY I prefer that much, but I think it is because of how much more variety there is, which is a plus in my book. I tend to get bored of playing games quite fast, so when the game is constantly changing I tend to stick more to it for a lot more time...

I think that's why I even like 2nd visits as well. I prefer jumping around between a lot of worlds and feeling immersed in the vaster universe of the series of a lot of worlds and storylines, than immersing myself in the disney world of choice one by one....

Specially when the world doesn't provide much variety in itself, which unfortunately KH3's worlds lacked in my opinion. Some of them being:
Arendelle with only a mountain full of whites and blues,
Toy Box with the never ending store;
Corona with 90% of the important gameplay being in a forest (10% in a swamp and the town doesn't even have a challenge);
San Fransokyo had a city with differences being only between being Day or Night.

. I didn't find too compeling playing in these worlds like I did playing KH2's, because most of it was the same, the whole time, but harder and harder until it reaches a boss. :/

In KH2 we have Halloween Town with Christmas and HAlloween in the same world, Mulan's had the palace, the dirt mountains and the snowy mountains, a village and grassy fields, Twilight town had the inside of the mansion, the town and the front of the clocktower, Disney Castle had the castle and the Merlin's Door to the past, Agrabah had the carpet section, a lot of temples, the town fair... Space Paranoids and Pride lands was mostly the same tho.

Anyway, my point is
I think KH2's, level design was blander to play than in KH3, yes, but regarding variety between them and making me less bored to navigate through (and also the visual style and coloring), KH2 was better.
 

Ballad of Caius

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I don't mind Attractions, but they should be better implemented. They don't complement the combat, they're just there. Like, I get they market the rides with them, but it doesn't feel like a tool for combat, just... something. It Also doesn't help that there's no in-plot reason for their existence. You just get a tutorial popup and that's that.
 

Katsagu

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I don't mind Attractions, but they should be better implemented. They don't complement the combat, they're just there. Like, I get they market the rides with them, but it doesn't feel like a tool for combat, just... something. It Also doesn't help that there's no in-plot reason for their existence. You just get a tutorial popup and that's that.
Yeah I think attractions were the worst addition to KH's combat for sure. They're random and deal a stupid ammount of damage. And it's like you said, they're just there. And I would argue they don't even succeed on marketing the rides.

In my honest opinion, they look like an idea that was thought off during the beginning of development, and then kind of abandoned during development, because if I remember correctly the only specific ride moments are in the very first level and in the very last. So yeah, it both feels like a early idea and an afterthought.

If we compare that to reaction commands from 2, the other "OP" addition to the series from that game, reactions are way more integral to the whole game.
 

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Since I played KH2 when I was in spain with spanish voice over, the game is dearly to me because it's the only one that has it in the series. Imagine being a kid and hearing Sora speak, then you recognize the voice and you're like: That's Ash from Pokemon!
The pacing feels better, also the storytelling is somewhat more coherent with everything they introduced (the organisation, nobodies etc.). Gameplay feels a little bit slower after going back from 3 but after the few minutes you're back there feeling like a kid again. Remind is good but it has the problem of repeating the fights in KG. I understand why they did it but it still feels repetitive. I like that they included reaction command(s?) even if they call them situation commands, I prefer RC over SC
 

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Guess you can count me with the Reddit crowd because I'm eye rolling hard at some the anti-KH2 comments here. There's a lot, a LOT I can say about the gameplay of these two games, but I'll just focus on intention. What are the developer's intentions for each respective game? What are they trying to achieve?

KH2 was developed to be an action game. Full stop. It's been described as such by the staff themselves and it's evident by the core gameplay loop and level structure. That means that how well this goal is achieved lies within the strength of it's combat system. And it's pretty strong. A refined combo system with tons of attacks that have distinct purposes and effects. A magic system that puts other ARPGs to shame. Mechanics that are completely under player control and interact with each other in ways that force players to make decisions. It's a monumental improvement over KH1's combat. It stumbles here and there in regards to enemy design and such but overall it nailed what it set out to do. So while it's totally fair to dog on it for failing to offer the same experience KH1 did, ignoring all the above and saying it sucks based on standards it's not even trying to live up to is narrow-minded.

And yes, I am talking about KH2 vanilla here. I think the people that actually need to go back and play 2 vanilla are the 3RM crowd themselves. What exactly did 2FM include that took vanilla from bad to good? Critical Mode? Difficulty doesn't exist in a vacuum. If the battle system is crap, why would I be interested in playing at a higher difficulty? (Paging KH3 Crit) New boss battles? See Critical Mode. Dodge Roll? Are people actually being serious with this? I agree not including it was stupid, but people bring it up as if it's a damning blow against vanilla. You don't even get it until way after Quick Run becomes available and it fills the same purpose. 2FM made a bunch of great additions, but the way it played never changed. So I don't understand how content that makes up maybe 15% of a whole playthrough could change someone's opinion so drastically.

KH3RM's gameplay priorities are kinda split. Combat-wise, it tries and utterly fails to surpass KH2. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that every returning mechanic is worse than it ever has been. The combo system was butchered and constantly breaks its own rules. Combat is filled with attacks that all do basically the same thing with little variance. Half of the game's mechanics are relegated to random pop-ups that can barely be influenced. And all the mechanics are strictly isolated from each other, meaning there are no interesting decisions to make. In other words, there's no skill allowed in this game. Yeah, yeah "KH2 is press X to win" blah blah blah, whatever. At least cranking the difficulty up to max made it clear how well designed the combat is. Doing the same with 3RM just sealed the deal on it being poorly thought out trash.

And people really out here calling 2's combat dated? 3RM just came out and it's already dated. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I've played a lot of action games and I can comfortably tell you that for a high budget, 2019 game from a veteran series, 3RM's combat is embarrassing. If fans talking about basic shit like weapon switching and a timed block that buffs your damage like they're the hottest thing since sliced bread isn't proof of that I don't know what is. 2 had genuinely innovative mechanics like Revenge Value and Offsetting (3 years before Bayonetta did).

Detailed world exploration was also something the team talked a lot about in interviews but it fails at this as well. I've seen others bring up this game's giant worlds in an attempt to own KH2 but in terms of progression they're almost identical. You fight a mob, move forward, fight another mob, move forward so more. Obviously I prefer them to 2's but if the goal is to harkon back to KH1, are they really that praise-worthy? Is it really right to call holding forward to effortlessly run up a wall or cross a gap 'platforming'? Feel free to go back through them and count the times you're actually required to press the jump button. It's not that many. KH1's platforming was pretty rudimentary but at least there was often tension.

So KH3RM fails to create a battle system than rivals KH2 and it fails to have exploration that rivals KH1, but somehow 2 is the game that sucks? Maybe some of you need to reevaluate what exactly it was that you liked about 3.
 

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•Backloading the plot is one of Japan's worst storytelling flaws.

•Sora the Messiah is one of the worst storybeats the series has ever tried to pass off, just behind the KH1 Keyblade Master "mystery".

•Don't ever introduce
•Remind makes the story even worse by wasting the player's time with KBG recaps, pointlessly featuring a Yozora scene that goes nowhere, and interactions between Org members that also go nowhere fast. All for the sake of "well we finally explained the OG ending guise and gave more flavor text to the Organization and Sora's disappearance". Dont get me started on including data org as a story beat only to go "PSYCH! DATA ORG WAS NEVER RELEVANT XD IT WAS JUST A MINIGAME LIKE USUAL". Why tf does Yozora fight Sora out of nowhere? What is the point of "hur but this isnt what i really look like xD"? Keep that BS out. It isn't mysterious, intriguing, deep, cute, or attractive. It's god awful writing and god awful pacing.

•I appreciate the Yozora boss fight tho. Ten tries and I still only beat it by cheesing with UW (phase 2 after DM is a great mixup).

•Remind still hasnt fixed damage scaling at Lv1 (ironically the data battles and Yozora have decent damage output but main game is a fekkin slog to this day).



So KH3RM fails to create a battle system than rivals KH2 and it fails to have exploration that rivals KH1, but somehow 2 is the game that sucks? Maybe some of you need to reevaluate what exactly it was that you liked about 3.
Yare yare daze. 3 never intended to rival KH2. The returning abilities in Remind were only implemented to stuff the incessant whining from 2FM purists (just the same way Sora "unlocking" Kairi's heart was directly modeled after KH2 Gate Open scene).

What you absolutely fail to grasp is that the INTENTION of Kh3 was to give the devs a handhold on working with UE4 while promoting Disney works and attracting children. The game is there to promote Disney first and foremost, and the gameplay exists for flash and splendor for literal children. 3(RM) is not and does not try to be an action game. It isn't a hardcore title. It isn't a continuation of 2(FM). It is its own thing and exists in a vacuum. You see it in so many things. Magnet Splash in 2FM is a quick move designed for CC. Magnet Splash in 3 is a slow cinematic "finisher" whose damage output is weak af and whose CC properties only sometimes work. This is by design. Why does ms exist in 3? To attract kiddies who played 2FM and to show people how beautiful the game looks. Same for all shotlocks and links. They are INTENTIONALLY shallow mechanics.

As far as gameplay is concerned. Even vanilla 2 was doing something that 3 has no intention of ever replicating. Reminder that flash step into reprisal is a GLITCH, does not work all the time even with keyblades that don't have guardbreaker, and so on.
 

Henryp

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Since I played KH2 when I was in spain with spanish voice over, the game is dearly to me because it's the only one that has it in the series. Imagine being a kid and hearing Sora speak, then you recognize the voice and you're like: That's Ash from Pokemon!
The pacing feels better, also the storytelling is somewhat more coherent with everything they introduced (the organisation, nobodies etc.). Gameplay feels a little bit slower after going back from 3 but after the few minutes you're back there feeling like a kid again. Remind is good but it has the problem of repeating the fights in KG. I understand why they did it but it still feels repetitive. I like that they included reaction command(s?) even if they call them situation commands, I prefer RC over SC
Actually that's one of the lesser reasons I didn't like KH2 that much. I didn't liked the translation to spanish, it felt off to me. I was gladly sattisfyed they dropped that in every other game, ingluding 2.5.
 

Ballad of Caius

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Yeah I think attractions were the worst addition to KH's combat for sure. They're random and deal a stupid ammount of damage. And it's like you said, they're just there. And I would argue they don't even succeed on marketing the rides.

In my honest opinion, they look like an idea that was thought off during the beginning of development, and then kind of abandoned during development, because if I remember correctly the only specific ride moments are in the very first level and in the very last. So yeah, it both feels like a early idea and an afterthought.

If we compare that to reaction commands from 2, the other "OP" addition to the series from that game, reactions are way more integral to the whole game.
Yeah, Attraction Flows are better off for events. It actually makes the moment magical, as in, Disney
 
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