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KH2 Vanilla vs. KH3 Re Mind



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What was the better experience?


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Katsagu

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I think that its also important to note that these games don't exist in a vacuum despite the fact that we're trying to judge them as if they do. Presentation matters; and player expectations at the time of release matters. KH3 had so many poor design decisions in the base game that I couldn't even stand to retry the game a year later on critical mode. And Remind fixed a lot but it can't remove that terrible experience from my mind even if they did provide options to remove attractions and add new abilities.

Obviously I'm biased here and I wouldn't try to change anyone's opinion, but it's actually hard for me to watch people claiming KH3 was a good game when it was so subpar. And I'm not even trying to argue KH2 was a good game either but it innovated and added far more to the story than KH3 did; so at the time it was released it was much easier for me to overlook its flaws than it was for me to forgive KH3 or its $30 DLC a year later.


The only point in a game allowing you to "level up" is if there are fights that you can gain an advantage by grinding levels. Sephiroth being a high level boss fight that still maintains his challenge at 99 [for new players] provides a reason for the leveling system because you gain an advantage, but not so much of an advantage that you can't lose. KH3 does not facilitate the need for a leveling system because all of the fights are designed as an experience to be completed at a specific level. I don't know how to put this anymore clearly except that if levels were completely removed from KH3 almost nothing would change except you couldnt faceroll story bosses by grinding.


maybe it takes 2 hours to grind 99 out in KH3, it never felt that long to me because maybe my build was better but regardless, the grind in KH2 takes far longer than KH3
So, you don't like that the leveling system in KH3 lets you get to a point where you can kill everything easily, okay got it.

Though once again that is true of KH2 vanilla. Seph lvl 99 on proud is easy with the ammount of HP you get and the damage you do. Seph lvl 99 on crit is not. And so is Dark Inferno exactly the same way. You can still die on both if you make an error.

You say the fights in KH 3 are designed for a specific level, so are KH2's, you yourself said so with seph being for lvl 70, if they're to hard for you, you level up. Its not like Dark Inferno is super easy at level 50, and becomes a faceroll at 51, I'm pretty sure there are tons of people that needed to level up for that fight.

What would change in KH2 if levels were removed also? Like honestly?

Also I followed that exact method with ultima weapon that is even faster than thundaga. And it still took me 2 hours with all the loading screens inbetween and such. In KH2 there is a place in the world that never was that lets level up as fast as that similarly.
 

OneDandelion

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Maybe it's just me, I don't know, but Sephiroth at LvL 99 even as a new player, is a piss easy boss to beat honestly. You can survive most of his attacks and his openings are very telegraphed. So this is honestly where I'm confused because he doesn't differ that much from Sephiroth as a secret boss.

Dark Inferno still provides the exact challenge at any level as much as Sephiroth because its design philosophy is still intact and becomes a lot easier when you grind to 99. And if you dont on both, you'll have a hard time but you can still beat it with strategy and knowing your moveset and studying how attacks and blocks and how to overcome them. So honestly there really isn't a difference between them besides Sephiroth being a slightly harder fight because ... he's Sephiroth.

So I don't really get what you are trying argue... well I think I do, you think KH3 has an unnecessary leveling system that makes a game that's already holding your hand even more easy. And I just don't think that's an opinion based on fact, or at least not in the way you are presenting it, as if KH2 provided a much more fair system then KH3 and I just dont think that's entirely the case. I think they're almost identical with the Remind DLC.

Look, I don't claim to be a video game expert when it comes to mechanics; I still have to watch How-To Materia videos on YT just to get a decent build in FF7R for the hard bosses. But, to me, the Leveing and Challenge in KH3 and KH3 is almost exactly the same. So is the challenge itself.

And honestly, this blew my mind before this whole discussion when it comes to the power of nostalgia.

When KH3 came out, everyone complained about how easy the game was with some challenge here and there toward the end but that's about it. And I'm sitting here thinking. "Have any of you people played a KH game? Besides the secret bosses, they aren't exactly rocket science" but I assume this is probably because they havent played a KH game since they were twelve but I can also see older fans feeling this way but I guess this is just where I differ from most fans.

You know that game I just mentioned? FF7R. Yeah. I got far more challenge out of that game then the entirety of KH as a franchise besides one... KH3. As a child, yeah, KH games where pretty challenging but by the time I'm an adult? I can breeze through KH1-KHDDD critcal mode without much challenge because these games are not that hard to grasp and aren't that complex in difficulty as JRPGs. I'm not saying they are baby first JRPGs but compared to competition, KH is very basic. It follows the same philosophy as any normal JRPG when it comes to difficulty except its more accessible to a wider audience then I think normal JRPGs are use too.

To me, these games need to be a lot more challenging in general but that's not the point here. The point is every KH game so far has followed a basic path of difficulty and leveling pattern in every game that has come. Maybe some differences here and there as far what you have access too (or be like BBS and DDD where you can tell the difficulty of the game to F**k off once you get "certain moves") but the relative ease of these games is very apparent and that also includes the difficulty of the superbosses.

The hardest bosses in these games have always been the endgame content where you can still take them on at any level but grind up to 99 and know his patterns, they aren't much a threat unless the boss is different then just block, dodge and attack at different points but that's honestly how most of these bosses are. Even Sephiroth at his hardest in KH1, you can still very much alienate his one winged butt if you know what you're doing and study his moves. Even Yozora, the hardest boss in any of these games, can be pretty easy to beat if you have the patience.

My point.. I just dont get the difference in what you are saying on how KH3 system differs from any KH game that has this leveing system and gameplay difficulty design. They are all to me pretty much the same thing and Dark Inferno isn't any more of less challenging then any superbosses we've had in the past that follows his patterns and I think whether you find him more challenging or not really has to with how skilled you are as a gamer. I think it espeicelly has to do with if you played KH games as a child differing from how you play them now and that comes with our own individual experiences.

But regardless, I think all these games as far as gameplay and difficulty, have always felt similar or identical to each other. I don't think any one game is more challenging or has a more fair system then the other. Again, you can argue KH2 but there are many ways to cheese that game too.

Also, it really isnt required to go Lvl 99 on superbosses in KH3. If you know what you're doing, you can beat at any level. It's a lot harder but you can still do it.
I mentioned it in another post, but I'm not arguing that KH2 is a good game or a good RPG. Far from it. I know that sephiroth is a pretty easy fight at level 99, but for a new player even they're bound to die a few times at 99 because sephiroth has a couple near instant KO mechanics you have to look out for. The point was sephiroth provided a reason to grind to 99. The reason you grind to 99 in KH3 is because its quick and because its the standard for fighting the data battles, but leveling up never gives you an edge.

Grinding in KH2 took probably 6 or 7 hours more or less from what I remember and it gave you a slight edge in one fight. one fight is obviously not ideal, and its not good game design, but its better than nothing. The edge you gain from grinding is the trade off that essentially defines what RPGs are, without it there is no point to making it an RPG in the first place and it may as well just be an action game.

That isn't the only reason why I think KH2 is better than KH3 but people keep responding to me about it. At the end of the day I'm a huge fan of older RPGs and the reasons ive explained are my preferences in how I think RPGs should be designed. The RPG-esque mechanics in KH3 are illusory and are there only because its what people expect combat in KH3 to look like, it doesn't actually add anything to the game.

I thought FF7R was actually easier than KH2 but its been a while since I've played KH2. The problem with FF7R is that its combat is essentially a rock-paper-scissors mechanic where (if you have the proper materia equipped) its very hard to lose with the exception of 1 or 2 fights. And because you can scan every enemy and immediately learn their weakness, if you die, you probably won't die a third time unless you get stun locked or something which can also be avoided with accessories. For that reason Hard mode was actually easier than the base game for me.

You say the fights in KH 3 are designed for a specific level, so are KH2's, you yourself said so with seph being for lvl 70, if they're to hard for you, you level up. Its not like Dark Inferno is super easy at level 50, and becomes a faceroll at 51, I'm pretty sure there are tons of people that needed to level up for that fight.
And because leveling up is so easy in KH3 they level from 50-99 in an hour or two and destroy it. I'm actually curious how many people stopped at 60 or 70 or 80 to fight him in order to maintain a challenge? Not likely imo. Most people probably tried to fight him around 50 or grinded to 99 to try again; either way, because of how easy the grind is, it defeats the purpose of the leveling system in KH3

The Organization and Twilight Town are introduced in CoM, not KH2. Roxas literally only appears at the start and at the end of the game, so "the plot following [organization members] and Roxas" is not something I can see. The Org. is also barely in the game, which is another massive flaw regarding KH2's story that was later "fixed" with FM.
Yup I'm aware, but twilight town was only an explorable world in KH2. And while the organization members were not introduced in KH2 they were branching out to other worlds and their intentions were still a mystery. In KH3 not only are their intentions known for the first half of the game, but they don't make sense (finding more guardians of light lol?) and serve only to force the player to travel to KH worlds. The only purpose of the organization members in KH3 was to die at the keyblade graveyard. Again I'm not saying KH2 did any of this particularly well, but it brought new ideas to the table, created new environments to explore for preestablished worlds, and didn't take 35 hours to tell a 3 hour story like KH3 did
 
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2 quid is good

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This is probably a testament to how apathetic I am to KH3's story - and by extension how apathetic it made me towards any future instalment - that I picked KH2. Not because its wildly better or anything, but simply put, as a person that doesn't factor in combat when considering KH games, and all the bells and whistles that come with that (super bosses etc), I can't ever bring myself to say KH3 is better than any game in the franchise, except perhaps recoded or khux. I suppose that's intense anti KH3 bias and makes me look unreasonable and bad/dumb/trolly.

I just don't think any part of KH3 - even the Final World with how good it is - redeems the rest of the game's mediocrity. I definitely couldn't say it has a better story than KH2, contentious though it may be. Remind adds a great scenario, but you'd have to replay a whole lot to get to it, and seeing as that's the only part of remind that actively makes the experience of KH3 better for me, I'm not sure it's worth paying £25 for.

On the other hand I never needed to pay anything extra to enjoy KH2 wholly, and that's what I'm basing this on
 

Zettaflare

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I guess Re:MIND by default? Granted there were some things I didn't care for(the one year timeskip feels disjointed and out of place) but there is a lot to like more than vanilla KH2 at the same time.

The reveal that Luxord might be from Yozora's world is absolutely amazing and opens the door to a bunch of possiblties.
 

drew0512

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Yup I'm aware, but twilight town was only an explorable world in KH2. And while the organization members were not introduced in KH2 they were branching out to other worlds and their intentions were still a mystery. In KH3 not only are their intentions known for the first half of the game, but they don't make sense (finding more guardians of light lol?) and serve only to force the player to travel to KH worlds. The only purpose of the organization members in KH3 was to die at the keyblade graveyard. Again I'm not saying KH2 did any of this particularly well, but it brought new ideas to the table, created new environments to explore for preestablished worlds, and didn't take 35 hours to tell a 3 hour story like KH3 did
That's factually incorrect, KH2 and KH3 are the same in this aspect. The only difference is that KH3 has more story bits sprinkled across the game while KH2 has a big story segment right in the middle of the game but nothing before and after it (until the endgame).

Things that happen in the final section of KH2: Axel's story ends. You reunite with Kairi. You reunite with Riku. You kill Luxord. You kill Saix. You kill Xigbar. You meet Ansem and see the end of his story. Maleficent's story ends. Roxas' story ends. Naminé's story ends. You kill Xemnas. That's the entire plot of the game.

Also, what doesn't make sense about the Org. member in KH3? If anything, they make more sense than in KH2 and by a wide margin.

You also confirmed what I said at the beginning (although you brushed it off). KH2 did introduce new story elements and the vast majority of the players overwhelmingly complain about things that were either introduced or brought to an extreme in KH2.
 

NoWay

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One thing I’d like to point out is that during KH3 literally nothing new is introduced story wise. I’m not referring to future plot points like Yozora or Subject X.
I mean as a KH fan who played every game, you are able to watch and understand every cutscene after the last Disney world without playing the rest of the game. To clarify this: I wasn’t in my home country till March 2019 and wasn’t able to play KH3 between January and the first week of April. In order to avoid spoilers I decided to watch every cutscene from Aqua’s rescue until the very end. I understood everything that happened and didn’t need to watch any other cutscene. I think that’s really sad for the game because literally nothing happened between the ending of 0.2 and the KH3 ending.

Normally you would need to play the whole game to understand every context but not with KH3. The lack of story between the beginning and the ending is very underwhelming, although I LOVE KH3 to the moon and back. That reduces the story to approximately 3-4 hours of “new content”.

However, in KH2 you wouldn’t be able to watch the cutscenes in TWTNW because the whole game is building the story up till the grand finale that is TWTNW. Without playing the rest of KH2, you wouldn’t be able to understand the ending segment.
 

Katsagu

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One thing I’d like to point out is that during KH3 literally nothing new is introduced story wise. I’m not referring to future plot points like Yozora or Subject X.
I mean as a KH fan who played every game, you are able to watch and understand every cutscene after the last Disney world without playing the rest of the game. To clarify this: I wasn’t in my home country till March 2019 and wasn’t able to play KH3 between January and the first week of April. In order to avoid spoilers I decided to watch every cutscene from Aqua’s rescue until the very end. I understood everything that happened and didn’t need to watch any other cutscene. I think that’s really sad for the game because literally nothing happened between the ending of 0.2 and the KH3 ending.

Normally you would need to play the whole game to understand every context but not with KH3. The lack of story between the beginning and the ending is very underwhelming, although I LOVE KH3 to the moon and back. That reduces the story to approximately 3-4 hours of “new content”.

However, in KH2 you wouldn’t be able to watch the cutscenes in TWTNW because the whole game is building the story up till the grand finale that is TWTNW. Without playing the rest of KH2, you wouldn’t be able to understand the ending segment.
Well, we also need to take into perspective what we are talking about here.

KH3 is the final game of a saga that spans a total of 7 games. KH3 does not have to set up anything for it's finale because that set up was already done by the end of DDD. We don't need to be introduced to new villains, new characters or new terms because this is the climax.

Also I think it is not true to say nothing happened during the whole game. We get scenes showing what the organization is doing that pertains to the ending, like the replica stuff for example. We also see the place kairi trained with axel. Mickey and Riku doing their thing. The twilight town segments. All of it is leading up to the end.
 

OneDandelion

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That's factually incorrect, KH2 and KH3 are the same in this aspect. The only difference is that KH3 has more story bits sprinkled across the game while KH2 has a big story segment right in the middle of the game but nothing before and after it (until the endgame).

Things that happen in the final section of KH2: Axel's story ends. You reunite with Kairi. You reunite with Riku. You kill Luxord. You kill Saix. You kill Xigbar. You meet Ansem and see the end of his story. Maleficent's story ends. Roxas' story ends. Naminé's story ends. You kill Xemnas. That's the entire plot of the game.

Also, what doesn't make sense about the Org. member in KH3? If anything, they make more sense than in KH2 and by a wide margin.

You also confirmed what I said at the beginning (although you brushed it off). KH2 did introduce new story elements and the vast majority of the players overwhelmingly complain about things that were either introduced or brought to an extreme in KH2.
First of all KH3 had almost nothing "sprinkled across the game" until the end storywise. What you're failing to understand about KH2 is that from the players perspective at the time chasing the organization across those worlds felt meaningful. Even if nothing significant happened during most of the disney worlds in KH2 with respect to the story it never exactly felt forced. And unlike KH3 there actually were a number of significant things that happened throughout the game. Even Roxas' segment in the very beginning was pretty huge.

Contrast that with KH3 and there were only two moments I can even remember in the disney worlds - your interaction with Marluxia in Corona and Larxene in Arendalle - both of which only serve to tell you that there are more "lights" that Xehanort could use to make the X blade, except its never actually necessary because Sora and the gang fight him anyway. Those two interactions literally inform the player that the disney worlds are irrelevent. I mean what else really happens? Woody tells young Xehanort he has no friends and young Xehanort figures out computers can have hearts or something? Oh yea, and Vanitas gets yeeted

I don't know how or why anyone would try to argue that more significant events took place in KH3 than KH2, I almost feel like you're trolling me.

KH3 is the final game of a saga that spans a total of 7 games. KH3 does not have to set up anything for it's finale because that set up was already done by the end of DDD. We don't need to be introduced to new villains, new characters or new terms because this is the climax.
This is exactly the attitude that allowed Square Enix to justify turning the 5 hour segment of midgar into a 40 hour cinematic game. And this is exactly how Peter Jackson felt when he thought he should turn the last 8 pages of the Hobbit into a full movie.

If there isn't enough story to produce a full game, then they shouldn't produce it. If DDD and 0.2 were meant to be a part of this story then they should have combined all three games and thrown out the filler material. But thats not what they did, they clearly want to draw out this franchise to the fullest extent that they can and for the last few games it has shown.

For what we were given in the base game Re:mind should have been completely free, and instead they had the nerve to charge you half the price of the original game for it. And lets be honest, the DLC added zero additional story content.

I'm not trying to stop anyone from buying future SE products, but at the very least they should not be praised for how scummy and exploitative their games and business practices have become
 
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drew0512

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Normally you would need to play the whole game to understand every context but not with KH3.
So you are able to explain Ansem's presence (or Vexen's, which is even more surprising) at the end of the game? Vexen especially is of fundamental importance in KH3, for both heroes and villains.

You need to distinguish between new concepts and build up. KH3 has plenty of build up, much more than KH2, to the point that most people actually complain that KH3 is just a never ending build up that never takes off until the ending section of the game.
 

Katsagu

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First of all KH3 had almost nothing "sprinkled across the game" until the end storywise. What you're failing to understand about KH2 is that from the players perspective at the time chasing the organization across those worlds felt meaningful. Even if nothing significant happened during most of the disney worlds in KH2 with respect to the story it never exactly felt forced. And unlike KH3 there actually were a number of significant things that happened throughout the game. Even Roxas' segment in the very beginning was pretty huge.

Contrast that with KH3 and there were only two moments I can even remember in the disney worlds - your interaction with Marluxia in Corona and Larxene in Arendalle - both of which only serve to tell you that there are more "lights" that Xehanort could use to make the X blade, except its never actually necessary because Sora and the gang fight him anyway. Those two interactions literally inform the player that the disney worlds are irrelevent. I mean what else really happens? Woody tells young Xehanort he has no friends and young Xehanort figures out computers can have hearts or something? Oh yea, and Vanitas gets yeeted

I don't know how or why anyone would try to argue that more significant events took place in KH3 than KH2, I almost feel like you're trolling me.


This is exactly the attitude that allowed Square Enix to justify turning the 5 hour segment of midgar into a 40 hour cinematic game. And this is exactly how Peter Jackson felt when he thought he should turn the last 8 pages of the Hobbit into a full movie.

If there isn't enough story to produce a full game, then they shouldn't produce it. If DDD and 0.2 were meant to be a part of this story then they should have combined all three games and thrown out the filler material. But thats not what they did, they clearly want to draw out this franchise to the fullest extent that they can and for the last few games it has shown.

For what we were given in the base game Re:mind should have been completely free, and instead they had the nerve to charge you half the price of the original game for it. And lets be honest, the DLC added zero additional story content.

I'm not trying to stop anyone from buying future SE products, but at the very least they should not be praised for how scummy and exploitative their games and business practices have become
First of all, you need to understand that your experience with KH3 does not represent everyone elses experience with it.

Just because you don't remember more scenes with organization members does not mean they weren't there. Just because you did not like the reason they were on said worlds, doesnt mean it was "forced". In KH2 the organization was mainly messing aroung with the characters of the disney worlds untill the end. Well guess what...they do the same in KH3! For different reasons of course, or would you preffer they stay on top of their rocks waiting for you? No they're doing their own shit and researching their own things.

Also between every disney world there was a scene that focused only on the game's original plot, so I don't know where you're coming from with the "it had almost nothing sprinkled in". The only significant thing that happens in KH2 is radiant garden at the middle, and it's hype I know. And yeah, that moment was not topped in KH3 for me. But saying KH3 does nothing is disingenuous.

Also I never said KH3 was not complete or did not have the story to be a solo game, it did. I said it did not need to introduce anything new because the set up was already done. Or do people also criticize avengers endgame for not being the filme that introduces thanos and the infinity stones? Or the final harry potter for not being the one that introduces horcruxes and voldemort? Come on.
 
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drew0512

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First of all KH3 had almost nothing "sprinkled across the game" until the end storywise.
Riku and Mickey in the RoD. Riku and Repliku. Kairi and Axel. Aqua falling to darkness. Vanitas’s return. Ansem the Wise being kidnapped by Ansem. AtW being saved by Hayner, Pence and Olette. Saix recruiting Vexen to work behind Xehanort’s back. Vexen recruiting Demyx . All of them working together to bring Roxas and Naminé back.

Even if nothing significant happened during most of the disney worlds in KH2 with respect to the story it never exactly felt forced.
KH2: Take this important photo of Twilight Town. You should go there now as you have no reason not to.
Also KH2: What if I forced you to have some finny fun in Atlantica? What about saving Christmas instead? Would you rather defeat Scar’s ghost?

Also, how can something feel meaningful if nothing significant happens? Besides, Sora only cares about finding Riku and Kairi.

Contrast that with KH3 and there were only two moments I can even remember in the disney worlds - your interaction with Marluxia in Corona and Larxene in Arendalle - both of which only serve to tell you that there are more "lights" that Xehanort could use to make the X blade, except its never actually necessary because Sora and the gang fight him anyway.
Because that’s the point, it’s a plan B. It explains why they go to the Graveyard and play by Xehanort’s rules while they could just refuse to do so and avoid conflict. It also explains why they go there right away instead of letting Aqua and Ven rest since they are not in the best condition. It also explains why they obviously panic and consequently suck because, as predicted by Xemnas after he finds out about the lie Larxene told Sora, “panic leads to a lack of preparation”.

Those two interactions literally inform the player that the disney worlds are irrelevent. I mean what else really happens? Woody tells young Xehanort he has no friends and young Xehanort figures out computers can have hearts or something?
You just see that the members are up to different things to complete the new Org. You also see how Vanitas returned and Sora finds out that Ventus’ heart is inside his. You also see heavy hints about the Org. trying to bring Xion back and how Vexen was able to perfect his old Replica Program thanks to the events of Toy Box and San Fransokyo, which is helpful for both good and bad guys.

I don't know how or why anyone would try to argue that more significant events took place in KH3 than KH2, I almost feel like you're trolling me.
I've given you many examples of what I've been saying so far but you haven't and you could start now. What are these more meaningful event in KH2? Unlike KH3, KH2 has several worlds with no connection to the overarching plot and the most relevant things I remember are that:
- you see Xigbar's, Demyx's and Luxord's faces;
- you kill Xaldin;
- Sora thinks for a second that he met Riku in the Land of dragons;
- you save Christmas

and none of these things have any tangible consequence. What am I missing?
 

OneDandelion

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First of all, you need to understand that your experience with KH3 does not represent everyone elses experience with it.

Just because you don't remember more scenes with organization members does not mean they weren't there. Just because you did not like the reason they were on said worlds, doesnt mean it was "forced". In KH2 the organization was mainly messing aroung with the characters of the disney worlds untill the end. Well guess what...they do the same in KH3! For different reasons of course, or would you preffer they stay on top of their rocks waiting for you? No they're doing their own shit and researching their own things.

Also between every disney world there was a scene that focused only on the game's original plot, so I don't know where you're coming from with the "it had almost nothing sprinkled in". The only significant thing that happens in KH2 is radiant garden at the middle, and it's hype I know. And yeah, that moment was not topped in KH3 for me. But saying KH3 does nothing is disingenuous.

Also I never said KH3 was not complete or did not have the story to be a solo game, it did. I said it did not need to introduce anything new because the set up was already done. Or do people also criticize avengers endgame for not being the filme that introduces thanos and the infinity stones? Or the final harry potter for not being the one that introduces horcruxes and voldemort? Come on.
Riku and Mickey in the RoD. Riku and Repliku. Kairi and Axel. Aqua falling to darkness. Vanitas’s return. Ansem the Wise being kidnapped by Ansem. AtW being saved by Hayner, Pence and Olette. Saix recruiting Vexen to work behind Xehanort’s back. Vexen recruiting Demyx . All of them working together to bring Roxas and Naminé back.


KH2: Take this important photo of Twilight Town. You should go there now as you have no reason not to.
Also KH2: What if I forced you to have some finny fun in Atlantica? What about saving Christmas instead? Would you rather defeat Scar’s ghost?

Also, how can something feel meaningful if nothing significant happens? Besides, Sora only cares about finding Riku and Kairi.


Because that’s the point, it’s a plan B. It explains why they go to the Graveyard and play by Xehanort’s rules while they could just refuse to do so and avoid conflict. It also explains why they go there right away instead of letting Aqua and Ven rest since they are not in the best condition. It also explains why they obviously panic and consequently suck because, as predicted by Xemnas after he finds out about the lie Larxene told Sora, “panic leads to a lack of preparation”.

You just see that the members are up to different things to complete the new Org. You also see how Vanitas returned and Sora finds out that Ventus’ heart is inside his. You also see heavy hints about the Org. trying to bring Xion back and how Vexen was able to perfect his old Replica Program thanks to the events of Toy Box and San Fransokyo, which is helpful for both good and bad guys.


I've given you many examples of what I've been saying so far but you haven't and you could start now. What are these more meaningful event in KH2? Unlike KH3, KH2 has several worlds with no connection to the overarching plot and the most relevant things I remember are that:
- you see Xigbar's, Demyx's and Luxord's faces;
- you kill Xaldin;
- Sora thinks for a second that he met Riku in the Land of dragons;
- you save Christmas

and none of these things have any tangible consequence. What am I missing?

Almost all of the cutscenes you mentioned happen at the end of the game like I said. It's around the 7 hour mark where Sora gains access to the realm of darkness and saves Aqua and after that the games actual plot begins to take place.

I like that cutscene between Lea and Kairi as much as anybody, but is it relevent to the story? Nope. Does it improve the game in any way? Nope. All it does is show that Lea and Kairi become friends. If you got to play as Kairi or Lea in the world it would have been great, but as it is its just a pretty standalone cutscene that neither adds nor subtracts from the game. It could have been posted on youtube months after the games release and I would have thought the same thing about KH3.

And all the scenes of Riku and Mickey looking for Aqua? Very cool, but completely unnecessary - because Sora finds and saves her in 2 seconds.

Likewise, most of if not all of the cutscenes prior to the 7 hour mark give amplifying/refreshing information on things that have already happened because God knows most people who bought KH3 have no idea where the story is at this point. Another fault of SE for releasing their games in such disjointed fashion. For the people that actually played all of the games its actually rather insulting.

As far as I can find by skipping around the video the only new information they give in the first 7 hours is vaguely talking about a "girl" that we can still only speculate on even after beating the DLC and they show a bit about Ansem the wise and Vexen just before san fransokyo.

That is why so many reviews say the game felt like a disjointed mess. Because over half the game is a disney advertisement and whats left is what people wanted to see

If you can't understand my points about KH2 story after everything I've written then I give up, if you still care try to understand what I already wrote.
 
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Ballad of Caius

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Even the writing and voice acting in KH2 feels dated.

Seriously, I played KH2 for a bit after KH3 and it felt like a downgraded.

So I'm on the KHIIIRemind team.
 

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Final Fantasy X has the same problem and it's a Squaresoft game.
Nah.

KH being somehow "destined" to become convoluted doesn't change the fact that KH1 is objectively simpler than the other games while KH2 is convoluted.
CoM is just as convoluted. The problem isn't that the series is convoluted. It's that it doesn't make sense or portray most of its story onscreen properly (or at all in some cases). Being convoluted is a plus when done properly--at least with me. I am a KH1 fan and a FF fan after all, and they aren't that simplistic. I think some of the problems may derive from the possibility that Nomura never really looks back at previous entries in the series after he's been off working on FF or whatever, and then forgets to pay off what he put emphasis on prior or forgets about what he was planning to show at a later point or, in KH3's case, he simply lost interest in what he had planned years ago and wanted to hurry and get it all over with.

I have a unique perspective having always criticized KH2... It's funny to me that the majority now want to denigrate KH2 in an attempt to "prop up" KH3. I went years telling people how inferior 2 was to 1 and it was a minority opinion to criticize KH2 back then. lol Unfortunately a lot of this just comes across as a fanbase that never wants the newest entry in their favorite franchise to be criticized and if it means tearing down the fanbase's previous Holy Grail, so be it, not that they really ever disliked KH2 or recognized its flaws before the convenience of the moment. I do think KH3 is much better than 2--but it comes with a batch of its own unique flaws as well. I do remember at one point a year or so before KH3 released saying that I looked forward to this moment when KH2 is old news and gets treated like dirt, and yet strangely somehow it all feels bittersweet. :/ I suppose I can empathize with 2 fans now being constantly told how inferior the game is to 3 having been a KH1 fan that was constantly told how inferior that game was to 2 because of shiny new graphics, dual keyblade-wielding, and a new style of gameplay.
 
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Face My Fears

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Yes, I’m copying the Reddit thread where I was called a shitty person for saying that KH2 Vanilla isn’t good by current KH standards.

But what about you? KH2 originally released December 2005 in Japan, but for this exercise we’re going to use 2006 as it’s release due to it release in English in March 2006. But what did you find to be the better game?

KH2 Vanilla Pros:

  • Middle of the game action (1000 Heartless Battle at Radiant Garden)
  • End of the game felt like a cumulation of what the game was building on (taken down a handfull of Organization members and you’re infiltrating their strong hold)
KH2 Vanilla Cons:
  • Lack of post game (Skateboarding minigame, Coliseum not well received due to it not giving out experience, present mini-game in Halloween Town)
  • Lack of abilities from KH1 (e.g. Dodge Roll)
  • Disney worlds are filler outside of Beasts Castle and Timeless River
KH3 Re Mind Pros:
  • The patch added in new abilities that made gameplay more diverse and fast
  • Added 15 new superbosses
  • Expanded final world
KH3 Re Mind Cons:
  • While KH3 has post game, most of it’s post game was done during the story (e.g. Rapunzel dance mini-game, Frozen slider, Flash Tracer)
  • Abilities missing making combat sluggish
  • Only one superboss
And whatever pros and cons for KH2 Vanilla (again, I stress Vanilla to keep it in line with the Reddit post) against KH 3 Re Mind pros and cons.
You forgot to mention that Space Paranoids is also not filler (probably less filler than Timeless River tbh).

Anyway, this is a hard discussion for me because I do think that KH2 Vanilla, let alone the story of KH2 wasn't as good as KH3's, but I can't help but think about KH2 Vanilla was the template that from about KH2 Final Mix. With that said, it's unavoidable to think about what ReMIND COULD have done. I was honestly expecting additional scenes during the main story (I legitimately thought the Luxord/Xigbar scene would happen while playing through Olympus). Now with that out of the way...

The only thing from KH2 Vanilla (or KH2 in general) that I think KH3 was severely lacking in was the Disney boss fights. So even though the Disney worlds were complete filler, the climax of the world was worth the visit IMO. I don't mind wasting time in the Pride Lands if I get to fight Scar at the end. Aside from that, I think KH3 ReMIND is better. KH2 Vanilla's story always felt incomplete to me, like things were missing (I kinda liked the mystique of it). Xemnas' plot is also confusing, I remember as a kid always wondering WHY DID YOU TURN YOURSELF INTO A NOBODY TO ONLY NOW CRY ABOUT IT LATER. It never made sense to me, let alone the fact that Xemnas was only being a villain at the start, middle, and end of the game.

Anyway, my pick would go to KH3 ReMIND.
 

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Nah.

CoM is just as convoluted. The problem isn't that the series is convoluted. It's that it doesn't make sense or portray most of its story onscreen properly (or at all in some cases). Being convoluted is a plus when done properly--at least with me. I am a KH1 fan and a FF fan after all, and they aren't that simplistic. I think some of the problems may derive from the possibility that Nomura never really looks back at previous entries in the series after he's been off working on FF or whatever, and then forgets to pay off what he put emphasis on prior or forgets about what he was planning to show at a later point or, in KH3's case, he simply lost interest in what he had planned years ago and wanted to hurry and get it all over with.

I have a unique perspective having always criticized KH2... It's funny to me that the majority now want to denigrate KH2 in an attempt to "prop up" KH3. I went years telling people how inferior 2 was to 1 and it was a minority opinion to criticize KH2 back then. lol Unfortunately a lot of this just comes across as a fanbase that never wants the newest entry in their favorite franchise to be criticized and if it means tearing down the fanbase's previous Holy Grail, so be it, not that they really ever disliked KH2 or recognized its flaws before the convenience of the moment. I do think KH3 is much better than 2--but it comes with a batch of its own unique flaws as well. I do remember at one point a year or so before KH3 released saying that I looked forward to this moment when KH2 is old news and gets treated like dirt, and yet strangely somehow it all feels bittersweet. :/ I suppose I can empathize with 2 fans now being constantly told how inferior the game is to 3 having been a KH1 fan that was constantly told how inferior that game was to 2 because of shiny new graphics, dual keyblade-wielding, and a new style of gameplay.
I can agree with this. I do quite enjoy KH3, but it's far from perfect. It has some very, very major flaws that ReMind didn't even touch so I will certainly not call it like the perfect game. From what I've seen around the web most still prefer KH2 over KH3 as a whole. It's not like KH2 has been dethroned of anything really. We'll likely have this conversation again when KH4 is made. In the words of Scar "Be Prepared!"
 

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I went years telling people how inferior 2 was to 1 and it was a minority opinion to criticize KH2 back then. lol Unfortunately a lot of this just comes across as a fanbase that never wants the newest entry in their favorite franchise to be criticized and if it means tearing down the fanbase's previous Holy Grail, so be it, not that they really ever disliked KH2 or recognized its flaws before the convenience of the moment.
I'm used to being in the minority opinion because generally speaking I value gameplay more than the story and in reality thats just not what people really care about anymore. But KH2 is not the hill I'm gonna die on lol, if I'm gonna die defending a minority opinion over a KH game it will be that KH1 is the best game in the series by far.

On this subject in truth I agree with @2 quid is good . I can find a million things wrong with KH2 and I've said I wouldn't even call it a good game, but I actually hate KH3 on multiple levels and I'll freely admit that I'm biased over it.
 

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Sorry to interrupt but something I keep seeing that doesn’t register is how we’re saying that older games feel dated and slower? Did I miss something? Isn’t that how it’s supposed to be?
The new games should be an improvement on movement and combat, so why are we criticizing something as slow against today’s games.

When you play old games, you play old mechanics. Old games are products of their times, like everything else in the world.
 

Ballad of Caius

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I keep seeing that doesn’t register is how we’re saying that older games feel dated and slower? Did I miss something? Isn’t that how it’s supposed to be?
The point is that some fans blindly put KH2 on a pedestal as they ignore the dated and slower mechanics.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but objectively, the reality of things could be different.
 
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