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KH2 Vanilla vs. KH3 Re Mind



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What was the better experience?


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Chaser

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Yes, I’m copying the Reddit thread where I was called a shitty person for saying that KH2 Vanilla isn’t good by current KH standards.

But what about you? KH2 originally released December 2005 in Japan, but for this exercise we’re going to use 2006 as it’s release due to it release in English in March 2006. But what did you find to be the better game?

KH2 Vanilla Pros:

  • Middle of the game action (1000 Heartless Battle at Radiant Garden)
  • End of the game felt like a cumulation of what the game was building on (taken down a handfull of Organization members and you’re infiltrating their strong hold)
KH2 Vanilla Cons:
  • Lack of post game (Skateboarding minigame, Coliseum not well received due to it not giving out experience, present mini-game in Halloween Town)
  • Lack of abilities from KH1 (e.g. Dodge Roll)
  • Disney worlds are filler outside of Beasts Castle and Timeless River
KH3 Re Mind Pros:
  • The patch added in new abilities that made gameplay more diverse and fast
  • Added 15 new superbosses
  • Expanded final world
KH3 Re Mind Cons:
  • While KH3 has post game, most of it’s post game was done during the story (e.g. Rapunzel dance mini-game, Frozen slider, Flash Tracer)
  • Abilities missing making combat sluggish
  • Only one superboss
And whatever pros and cons for KH2 Vanilla (again, I stress Vanilla to keep it in line with the Reddit post) against KH 3 Re Mind pros and cons.
 

okhi12

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I can't believe you didn't list ''No cutscene of Xemnas walking down stairs till the end of time'' as a vanilla KH2 con. It was memorable indeeeed and as eternal as nothingness.

Jokes aside, I don't think many people here would vote for vanilla KH2. It had Sephiroth as worthy side content but that was pretty much it, the minigames weren't memorable and the rest was just the main story and a rather repetitive colisseum.
Final Mix + was what made KH2 a truly great game: Roxas battle, Limit form, absent silhouettes, Cavern of Remembrance and data battles, puzzle pieces, mushroom XIII, Lingering Will... I don't think I would ever be wiling to play my KH2 copy for the PS2 again. That game is barebones without the FM+ content.

ReMind didn't totally fix KH3 but at least made it much more enjoyable with the huge amount of new bosses. Worst part is repeating keyblade graveyard events but those battles are so easy they can be breezed through in no time by skipping cutscenes.

Any opinion is valid and should be respected as long as is not offensive, but people who say vanilla KH2 is objectively better than KH3 ReMind should consider taking off their nostalgia glasses.
 

Chaser

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KH2 Vanilla sucks a lot. Even Nomura wasn’t happy about the game, which was why KH2FM has so much added to it.
I mean, that’s what I thought but Reddit had KH2 vanilla above Re Mind so maybe KHI is in a bubble that is oblivious to what people actually like 🤷🏼‍♂️
I can't believe you didn't list ''No cutscene of Xemnas walking down stairs till the end of time'' as a vanilla KH2 con. It was memorable indeeeed and as eternal as nothingness.
Lol, but that’s a part of the final mix additions, which make KH2 vastly superior so it’s invalidated. Otherwise it’s a 13/7.

Jokes aside, I don't think many people here would vote for vanilla KH2. It had Sephiroth as worthy side content but that was pretty much it, the minigames weren't memorable and the rest was just the main story and a rather repetitive colisseum.
Final Mix + was what made KH2 a truly great game: Roxas battle, Limit form, absent silhouettes, Cavern of Remembrance and data battles, puzzle pieces, mushroom XIII, Lingering Will... I don't think I would ever be wiling to play my KH2 copy for the PS2 again. That game is barebones without the FM+ content.

ReMind didn't totally fix KH3 but at least made it much more enjoyable with the huge amount of new bosses. Worst part is repeating keyblade graveyard events but those battles are so easy they can be breezed through in no time by skipping cutscenes.

Any opinion is valid and should be respected as long as is not offensive, but people who say vanilla KH2 is objectively better than KH3 ReMind should consider taking off their nostalgia glasses.
That’s where I stand. The Reddit thread puts KH2 without all the bells and whistles of the Final Mix against KH3 WITH the bells and whistles, so I thought the choice was clear.

The version of KH2 without limit form, dodge roll, data battles, lingering will, puzzle crowns against the version of KH3 with a post game, additional abilities, data battles, and Yozora. I thought it was clear but it seems my thinking may have been wrong all this time.
 

okhi12

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Lol, but that’s a part of the final mix additions, which make KH2 vastly superior so it’s invalidated. Otherwise it’s a 13/7.
Hence why vanilla version lacking such an iconic scene is a con. To me, at least.

I'll have to take a look at that reddit thread, I'm curious to know what the defenders of vanilla KH2 say to sustain their affirmations.
 

OneDandelion

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in terms of gameplay and story KH2 vanilla wins both for me.

The combat in KH2 feels more satisfying. That is because the leveling/progression system of the combat in KH3 is deeply, deeply flawed to the point where it hardly even qualifies as an RPG. All of the superbosses in Remind were great but they didn't even try to pretend that they were relavent to the game and because REmind was released a year after KH3 came out they were designed as if the player is already maxed level.

You can beat the game at level 40 or 50 and then grind to 99 in about 20 minutes, but that is beside the point - the point being what is the purpose of a leveling system with roughly a 50 level gap where you never gain an advantage over enemies and there are never enemies that you feel like you should level up to beat?

Sephiroth may have been the only optional boss (I think) in KH2 vanilla, but at the very least I felt some satisfaction in defeating him. At no point in KH3 did I feel any satisfaction in fighting anything. I had fun playing the Remind bosses, but me beating them was the result of me memorizing the boss patterns and not because I put time into my character or strategized with accessories or during the fights - so they came off as fights in a bullet hell game rather than fights in an RPG.

As far as the story goes KH2 progressed at a much more reasonable pace, innovated and introduced far more new ideas than KH3 did. And the ending was far better in my opinion. There is no contest here for me.

The level design was probably the only thing KH3 did better imo and it doesn't even really matter because at the end of the day both games were essentially hallways to get to boss fights. The difference basically comes down to which had better graphics and that might matter to some people but its not really something I care about.

Music - KH2 wins, hub worlds - KH2 wins, keyblade designs - kh2 wins.... I could go on for a while but if you're really asking if I'd rather play KH2 again or KH3 with REmind I'd rather play KH2

Disclaimer: I have actually never played KH2 FM but I beat the vanilla game twice
 
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Katsagu

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The combat in KH2 feels more satisfying. That is because the leveling/progression system of the combat in KH3 is deeply, deeply flawed to the point where it hardly even qualifies as an RPG. All of the superbosses in Remind were great but they didn't even try to pretend that they were relavent to the game and because REmind was released a year after KH3 came out they were designed as if the player is already maxed level.

You can beat the game at level 40 or 50 and then grind to 99 in about 20 minutes, but that is beside the point - the point being what is the purpose of a leveling system with roughly a 50 level gap where you never gain an advantage over enemies and there are never enemies that you feel like you should level up to beat?

Sephiroth may have been the only optional boss (I think) in KH2 vanilla, but at the very least I felt some satisfaction in defeating him. At no point in KH3 did I feel any satisfaction in fighting anything. I had fun playing the Remind bosses, but me beating them was the result of me memorizing the boss patterns and not because I put time into my character or strategized with accessories or during the fights - so they came off as fights in a bullet hell game rather than fights in an RPG.
I'm sorry, but having platinumed KH 2 FM recently for the 1st time, everything you said here applies to KH 2 as well.

What is so different about KH2's leveling system when compared to 3? Can't you beat KH 2 at level 40 or 50? I also grinded to 99 in 2 for the trophy very fast (just like I did for 3). How can you say you don't gain an advantage on 3 when defeating the final bosses at 50 is harder than 99?

Sephiroph is exactly like the data fights, you can memorize his patterns and punish his openings.

I really don't get where you're getting at with this criticism.

On OP. Although KH 2 vanilla was the 1st KH game I ever played, I can safely say I preffer KH 3 Re:Mind, hell even 3 vanilla. When compared to 2 FM, I think both are equally enjoyable, with 2 having an edge because I preffer the magic in that game. But then again I love the keyblade transformations.
 

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KH2 vanilla was the game of my childhood. I recently have relayed KH2FM and unfortunately it’s unplayable for me. I am so used to Keyblade transformations and Airstepping. I also love how fast paced the KH3 combat is thanks to the ReMind abilities. For me it feels so much faster than KH2(FM).

And OST wise for me it’s KH3 > every other KH game. KH3 has so many great memorable tracks like Scala ad Caelum Theme, the 13 SoD battle theme (where you fight all Replicas), Aqua’s battle theme, the Caribbean, the new renditions in Olympus. I also love the Kingdom of Corona’s field theme.

Rapunzel and Flynn interacting with Sora, Donald and Goofy is for me the best thing ever. But yeah IMO the only thing in which KH2 is superior to KH3 is Hollow Bastion and the intro.
 

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Sephiroth may have been the only optional boss (I think) in KH2 vanilla, but at the very least I felt some satisfaction in defeating him. At no point in KH3 did I feel any satisfaction in fighting anything.
You make a good point here. Beating Sephiroth, as my 11 year old self, felt like an achievement. Beating Dark Inferno, as my 23 year old self, felt like level up enough, block when necessary, and attack when in the clear.

KH2 didn't have much going for it in the post game but Sephiroth was a well designed boss.

KH2 vanilla was the game of my childhood. I recently have relayed KH2FM and unfortunately it’s unplayable for me. I am so used to Keyblade transformations and Airstepping. I also love how fast paced the KH3 combat is thanks to the ReMind abilities. For me it feels so much faster than KH2(FM).
I felt this when going back to Kingdom Hearts 2 a couple of months ago. Coming off of 3, it felt like it was going at 0.5 speed. The evolution of gameplay has come through really strong in 3 that I am worried about going back and playing the older games.
 

OneDandelion

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I'm sorry, but having platinumed KH 2 FM recently for the 1st time, everything you said here applies to KH 2 as well.

What is so different about KH2's leveling system when compared to 3? Can't you beat KH 2 at level 40 or 50? I also grinded to 99 in 2 for the trophy very fast (just like I did for 3). How can you say you don't gain an advantage on 3 when defeating the final bosses at 50 is harder than 99?

Sephiroph is exactly like the data fights, you can memorize his patterns and punish his openings.

I really don't get where you're getting at with this criticism.

On OP. Although KH 2 vanilla was the 1st KH game I ever played, I can safely say I preffer KH 3 Re:Mind, hell even 3 vanilla. When compared to 2 FM, I think both are equally enjoyable, with 2 having an edge because I preffer the magic in that game. But then again I love the keyblade transformations.
The difference is sephiroth is an endgame boss you're expected to fight around level 70. If you choose to grind to 99 before fighting Sephiroth he will still be somewhat challenging for someone who is not used to fighting bosses but he is significantly easier. So from the perspective of a player playing KH2 for the first time Sephiroth is an end game boss that is both challenging and provides utility to grinding out levels to 99.

This is completely different from the way KH3's bosses were designed. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but I grinded to 99 by accident before I even discovered Dark Inferno was an optional boss - result: faceroll. Dark inferno is a boss you must force yourself to fight at a lower level in order to maintain his challenge. He's somewhat of a challenge at around level 50, and at 99 you don't even have to think in order to beat him.

In contrast to Dark Inferno, all of the RE:mind bosses were designed to be fought at level 99. Sure you can fight them at a lower level if you want to artificially increase their difficulty, but the game expects the player to power level to 99 and they make it overwhelmingly easy to do so. As a result, there is no utility to leveling up because you can't gain any advantage over boss fights - you only ever match or overwhelmingly exceed the level the developers intended you to fight enemies at.

Ask yourself: why was it necessary to include levels in the game to begin with? Levels could have been removed completely and you could just unlock new abilities as you go through the game. If all of the boss fights in the game were designed to be played as a specific experience as the superbosses were in RE:mind then all leveling really accomplished in this game was the ability to faceroll the story bosses and Dark Inferno which don't even give you anything significant. You could say that it actually detracts from the experience because a player that accidentally power levels higher than intended doesn't get to fight Xehanort or Dark Inferno the way they were intended.

So to summarize, my point is KH2 provided some utility to leveling up despite there being one optional boss. ( granted it may only take 4 or 5 hours [i forget its been a while since I've played] compared to the 20 minutes it takes to grind in KH3)

Am I saying that sephiroth as a boss fight is better than the super bosses in Remind? No. I'm only saying the way he was designed justified KH2 in being an RPG, however small his contribution actually was, and his inclusion within radiant garden as a superboss was more intriguing and immersive than fighting "data" battles of characters that don't actually exist. Sure, KH2 FM had those Data boss fight things as well, but at least Sephiroth and the Coliseum were there as well to fight in the "real" world
 

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KH3 is overall a better game than KH2 when taking into account everything for me (even pitting against KH2FM, so...), but I understand why some would prefer KH2 or at least find it more fulfilling / satisfying at the same time.

The level design was probably the only thing KH3 did better imo and it doesn't even really matter because at the end of the day both games were essentially hallways to get to boss fights. The difference basically comes down to which had better graphics and that might matter to some people but its not really something I care about.
This is the major reason I prefer KH3 (and 3D) to KH2 because I want the world designs to be large and complex for exploration purposes... KH3 has its cons though, like the lack of FF characters, Coliseum, original worlds, a midpoint, etc. I have to choose what's most important to me when comparing the games, since unfortunately neither are the perfect experience you'd hope for. I actually prefer KH3's gameplay by far, that's mostly up to personal taste, I think. Keyblade designs, I'd call it even (although KH2 has many more, some are horrible like Rumbling Rose and Decisive Pumpkin). KH2's soundtrack is definitely superior. While KH3 has the better theme song(s), imo--although I prefer the orchestra of Passion to the orchestra of DTT--the rest of KH3's soundtrack is lacking.
 
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KH3RM is my favorite in the series, so easy choice.
way more playable characters, better data battles, better combat after the patch (imo). that's more than enough for me.
 

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I loved KH2 in 2006 but its mediocrity is becoming more and more apparent to me (but I share the same opinion for 2FM, too). The story has an interesting start with Roxas but it goes downhill fast after that. CoM has a better story and treats the Org. better than KH2 does and we're talking about a gameboy game.

KH3RM, despite sharing some problems regarding the narrative, just has a better everything for me and that still holds true even when comparing 2FM to 3.
 

Katsagu

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The difference is sephiroth is an endgame boss you're expected to fight around level 70. If you choose to grind to 99 before fighting Sephiroth he will still be somewhat challenging for someone who is not used to fighting bosses but he is significantly easier. So from the perspective of a player playing KH2 for the first time Sephiroth is an end game boss that is both challenging and provides utility to grinding out levels to 99.

This is completely different from the way KH3's bosses were designed. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but I grinded to 99 by accident before I even discovered Dark Inferno was an optional boss - result: faceroll. Dark inferno is a boss you must force yourself to fight at a lower level in order to maintain his challenge. He's somewhat of a challenge at around level 50, and at 99 you don't even have to think in order to beat him.

In contrast to Dark Inferno, all of the RE:mind bosses were designed to be fought at level 99. Sure you can fight them at a lower level if you want to artificially increase their difficulty, but the game expects the player to power level to 99 and they make it overwhelmingly easy to do so. As a result, there is no utility to leveling up because you can't gain any advantage over boss fights - you only ever match or overwhelmingly exceed the level the developers intended you to fight enemies at.

Ask yourself: why was it necessary to include levels in the game to begin with? Levels could have been removed completely and you could just unlock new abilities as you go through the game. If all of the boss fights in the game were designed to be played as a specific experience as the superbosses were in RE:mind then all leveling really accomplished in this game was the ability to faceroll the story bosses and Dark Inferno which don't even give you anything significant. You could say that it actually detracts from the experience because a player that accidentally power levels higher than intended doesn't get to fight Xehanort or Dark Inferno the way they were intended.

So to summarize, my point is KH2 provided some utility to leveling up despite there being one optional boss. ( granted it may only take 4 or 5 hours [i forget its been a while since I've played] compared to the 20 minutes it takes to grind in KH3)

Am I saying that sephiroth as a boss fight is better than the super bosses in Remind? No. I'm only saying the way he was designed justified KH2 in being an RPG, however small his contribution actually was, and his inclusion within radiant garden as a superboss was more intriguing and immersive than fighting "data" battles of characters that don't actually exist. Sure, KH2 FM had those Data boss fight things as well, but at least Sephiroth and the Coliseum were there as well to fight in the "real" world
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as disingenuous, but I'm still failing to grasp how any of the things you say here don't apply to KH2 again.

Sephiroth is an harder boss than Dark Inferno sure, better designed I would say with better moves. But at the end of the day both bosses work the same. If you get familiar with his moves it doesnt matter if you're at the expected level or not. You can still kill him. I would also add that I find sephiroth at lvl 99 on proud mode (kh2 vanilla had no crit) far from an hard fight, and dark inferno at lvl 99 on critical is not easy, one error and you might die, you need to learn the fight.

What I got from what you said, is that thanks to the existence of a boss that is level 70 in KH2, it means that KH2's leveling system is better because there is something that actually justifies you level up past 50? But I still say both games provide the same experience, if you get to lvl 99 in 2 or 3 you can basically oneshot every mob in the game apart from these secret bosses and there's not much of an incentive to reach lvl 99 apart from that. Getting stronger.

Also saying in KH 3 you can go from like level 50 (final boss expected level I assume) to 99 in 20 minutes is a lie. And the fastest way to do so you would have to go to a specific grind place, like you would with KH2. And I still took 2 hours to do (from 70 to 99) with the cheese of ultima weapon shotlock.
 

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I think that its also important to note that these games don't exist in a vacuum despite the fact that we're trying to judge them as if they do. Presentation matters; and player expectations at the time of release matters. KH3 had so many poor design decisions in the base game that I couldn't even stand to retry the game a year later on critical mode. And Remind fixed a lot but it can't remove that terrible experience from my mind even if they did provide options to remove attractions and add new abilities.

Obviously I'm biased here and I wouldn't try to change anyone's opinion, but it's actually hard for me to watch people claiming KH3 was a good game when it was so subpar. And I'm not even trying to argue KH2 was a good game either but it innovated and added far more to the story than KH3 did; so at the time it was released it was much easier for me to overlook its flaws than it was for me to forgive KH3 or its $30 DLC a year later.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as disingenuous, but I'm still failing to grasp how any of the things you say here don't apply to KH2 again.

Also saying in KH 3 you can go from like level 50 (final boss expected level I assume) to 99 in 20 minutes is a lie. And the fastest way to do so you would have to go to a specific grind place, like you would with KH2. And I still took 2 hours to do (from 70 to 99) with the cheese of ultima weapon shotlock.
The only point in a game allowing you to "level up" is if there are fights that you can gain an advantage by grinding levels. Sephiroth being a high level boss fight that still maintains his challenge at 99 [for new players] provides a reason for the leveling system because you gain an advantage, but not so much of an advantage that you can't lose. KH3 does not facilitate the need for a leveling system because all of the fights are designed as an experience to be completed at a specific level. I don't know how to put this anymore clearly except that if levels were completely removed from KH3 almost nothing would change except you couldnt faceroll story bosses by grinding.


maybe it takes 2 hours to grind 99 out in KH3, it never felt that long to me because maybe my build was better but regardless, the grind in KH2 takes far longer than KH3
 
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drew0512

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And I'm not even trying to argue KH2 was a good game either but it innovated and added far more to the story than KH3 did
Which is not necessarily a good thing, considering that most of the problems that currently plague the franchise originate from KH2. Too many cutscenes? Too many characters? Sidelined characters? Death losing meaning with resurrected characters? Convoluted plot for the sake of it? A lot of filler content that kills the pace of the game? Plot holes?

Kingdom Hearts would probably be better off today without a lot of these innovations from KH2.

maybe it takes 2 hours to grind 99 out in KH3, it never felt that long to me because maybe my build was better but regardless, the grind in KH2 takes far longer than KH3
You can level up just as fast in KH2. Pride Lands + Gull Will keyblade + Experience boost = enjoy your level 99.
 
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I have always said KH2's story has aged the worst of the series. It's still a solid entry without question and I love a lot of things in it but so many things just don't work for me anymore or never worked for me at all and they are core story elements. The Organization isn't fully fleshed out and I find this their blandest entry as a group. Final Mix helped them a lot but since this is vanilla, they are forgettable for me outside their boss fights. I'm critical on this point because now I love the Organization but that's thanks to COM, Days, and even from DDD and KH3. To even call Luxord a character in KH2 is being generous. Talk about a big step up with what KH3 did for him.

Then there is the whole Ansem/Xehanort apprentice story which, as I've said numerous times, has basically been destroyed at this point. I enjoyed it back in the day but now it holds practically zero weight in the grand scheme of Xehanort's story. Apprentice Xehanort isn't even acknowledged anymore as his own character, and this was the big KH2 twist.

As far as battles go, the 14 Superbosses in ReMind are the best boss fights I've ever played in a Kingdom Hearts game. Sephiroth was great for his time in KH2, but even the Final Mix of KH2 saw him drop in terms of difficulty compared to LW and the KH2FM Datas.

When I beat Sephiroth it was a great feeling, however I never had a strong desire to rematch him ever again, and when I do I never lose to him or get hit often. The Data Organization are different. I've beaten all of them and rematch then and lose most of the times. I know all their attacks but monsters like Saix, Xemnas, Xion, Vanitas, Dark Riku and Xehanort still regularly slaughter me, and I love it. Then there are Pro Codes to make them even harder. I love hard bosses because they feel the most rewarding when I win. Don't even get me started on you-know-who in the Secret Episode and how tough he is.

KH3 also has the better tutorial for me. The KH3 tutorial had me pumped up for a grand adventure, where as the KH2 tutorial is good retrospectively, but still a chore to slog through. I know plenty of people who have save files starting from when Sora wakes up.

KH2's strengths for me come from the Final Mix mostly. I still appreciate KH2 and what it did contribute to the series. At the end of the day it's all about preference though, so there is no real right or wrong answer.
 

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Which is not necessarily a good thing, considering that most of the problems that currently plague the franchise originate from KH2. Too many cutscenes? Too many characters? Sidelined characters? Death losing meaning with resurrected characters? Convoluted plot for the sake of it? A lot of filler content that kills the pace of the game? Plot holes?

Kingdom Hearts would probably be better off today without a lot of these innovations from KH2.
Cutscenes have been a problem ever since Square merged with Enix, but squaresoft basically built itself off of convoluted story telling. People like to say KH1 was simple and that the series was never meant to be as convoluted as it is, but Tetsuya Nomura and Shinji Hashimoto directed/produced KH1 and worked on some of the most convoluted Final Fantasy stories in the series. Acting like KH1 wasn't intended to be convoluted from the start just because the entry game was somewhat simple seems ridiculous to me.

And its hardly fair to pin the shounen anime tropes that FF tends to follow as well on KH2. I was strictly talking about the innovation brought to the characters - KH2 dedicated most of the plot to following organization members and Roxas. They introduced twilight town and Radiant Garden and the final world and made them all explorable and integrated into the main story in the base game. KH3 by comparison has almost nothing that adds to the story until the last few hours of the game.
 
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I think that its also important to note that these games don't exist in a vacuum despite the fact that we're trying to judge them as if they do. Presentation matters; and player expectations at the time of release matters. KH3 had so many poor design decisions in the base game that I couldn't even stand to retry the game a year later on critical mode. And Remind fixed a lot but it can't remove that terrible experience from my mind even if they did provide options to remove attractions and add new abilities.

Obviously I'm biased here and I wouldn't try to change anyone's opinion, but it's actually hard for me to watch people claiming KH3 was a good game when it was so subpar. And I'm not even trying to argue KH2 was a good game either but it innovated and added far more to the story than KH3 did; so at the time it was released it was much easier for me to overlook its flaws than it was for me to forgive KH3 or its $30 DLC a year later.


The only point in a game allowing you to "level up" is if there are fights that you can gain an advantage by grinding levels. Sephiroth being a high level boss fight that still maintains his challenge at 99 [for new players] provides a reason for the leveling system because you gain an advantage, but not so much of an advantage that you can't lose. KH3 does not facilitate the need for a leveling system because all of the fights are designed as an experience to be completed at a specific level. I don't know how to put this anymore clearly except that if levels were completely removed from KH3 almost nothing would change except you couldnt faceroll story bosses by grinding.


maybe it takes 2 hours to grind 99 out in KH3, it never felt that long to me because maybe my build was better but regardless, the grind in KH2 takes far longer than KH3
Maybe it's just me, I don't know, but Sephiroth at LvL 99 even as a new player, is a piss easy boss to beat honestly. You can survive most of his attacks and his openings are very telegraphed. So this is honestly where I'm confused because he doesn't differ that much from Sephiroth as a secret boss.

Dark Inferno still provides the exact challenge at any level as much as Sephiroth because its design philosophy is still intact and becomes a lot easier when you grind to 99. And if you dont on both, you'll have a hard time but you can still beat it with strategy and knowing your moveset and studying how attacks and blocks and how to overcome them. So honestly there really isn't a difference between them besides Sephiroth being a slightly harder fight because ... he's Sephiroth.

So I don't really get what you are trying argue... well I think I do, you think KH3 has an unnecessary leveling system that makes a game that's already holding your hand even more easy. And I just don't think that's an opinion based on fact, or at least not in the way you are presenting it, as if KH2 provided a much more fair system then KH3 and I just dont think that's entirely the case. I think they're almost identical with the Remind DLC.

Look, I don't claim to be a video game expert when it comes to mechanics; I still have to watch How-To Materia videos on YT just to get a decent build in FF7R for the hard bosses. But, to me, the Leveing and Challenge in KH3 and KH3 is almost exactly the same. So is the challenge itself.

And honestly, this blew my mind before this whole discussion when it comes to the power of nostalgia.

When KH3 came out, everyone complained about how easy the game was with some challenge here and there toward the end but that's about it. And I'm sitting here thinking. "Have any of you people played a KH game? Besides the secret bosses, they aren't exactly rocket science" but I assume this is probably because they havent played a KH game since they were twelve but I can also see older fans feeling this way but I guess this is just where I differ from most fans.

You know that game I just mentioned? FF7R. Yeah. I got far more challenge out of that game then the entirety of KH as a franchise besides one... KH3. As a child, yeah, KH games where pretty challenging but by the time I'm an adult? I can breeze through KH1-KHDDD critcal mode without much challenge because these games are not that hard to grasp and aren't that complex in difficulty as JRPGs. I'm not saying they are baby first JRPGs but compared to competition, KH is very basic. It follows the same philosophy as any normal JRPG when it comes to difficulty except its more accessible to a wider audience then I think normal JRPGs are use too.

To me, these games need to be a lot more challenging in general but that's not the point here. The point is every KH game so far has followed a basic path of difficulty and leveling pattern in every game that has come. Maybe some differences here and there as far what you have access too (or be like BBS and DDD where you can tell the difficulty of the game to F**k off once you get "certain moves") but the relative ease of these games is very apparent and that also includes the difficulty of the superbosses.

The hardest bosses in these games have always been the endgame content where you can still take them on at any level but grind up to 99 and know his patterns, they aren't much a threat unless the boss is different then just block, dodge and attack at different points but that's honestly how most of these bosses are. Even Sephiroth at his hardest in KH1, you can still very much alienate his one winged butt if you know what you're doing and study his moves. Even Yozora, the hardest boss in any of these games, can be pretty easy to beat if you have the patience.

My point.. I just dont get the difference in what you are saying on how KH3 system differs from any KH game that has this leveing system and gameplay difficulty design. They are all to me pretty much the same thing and Dark Inferno isn't any more of less challenging then any superbosses we've had in the past that follows his patterns and I think whether you find him more challenging or not really has to with how skilled you are as a gamer. I think it espeicelly has to do with if you played KH games as a child differing from how you play them now and that comes with our own individual experiences.

But regardless, I think all these games as far as gameplay and difficulty, have always felt similar or identical to each other. I don't think any one game is more challenging or has a more fair system then the other. Again, you can argue KH2 but there are many ways to cheese that game too.

Also, it really isnt required to go Lvl 99 on superbosses in KH3. If you know what you're doing, you can beat at any level. It's a lot harder but you can still do it.
 

drew0512

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Cutscenes have been a problem ever since Square merged with Enix
Final Fantasy X has the same problem and it's a Squaresoft game.

People like to say KH1 was simple and that the series was never meant to be as convoluted as it is, but Tetsuya Nomura and Shinji Hashimoto directed/produced KH1 and worked on some of the most convoluted Final Fantasy stories in the series. Acting like KH1 wasn't intended to be convoluted from the start just because the entry game was somewhat simple seems ridiculous to me.
KH being somehow "destined" to become convoluted doesn't change the fact that KH1 is objectively simpler than the other games while KH2 is convoluted.

And its hardly fair to pin the shounen anime tropes that FF tends to follow as well on KH2. I was strictly talking about the innovation brought to the characters - KH2 dedicated most of the plot to following organization members and Roxas. They introduced twilight town and Radiant Garden and the final world and made them all explorable and integrated into the main story in the base game. KH3 by comparison has almost nothing that adds to the story until the last few hours of the game.
The Organization and Twilight Town are introduced in CoM, not KH2. Roxas literally only appears at the start and at the end of the game, so "the plot following [organization members] and Roxas" is not something I can see. The Org. is also barely in the game, which is another massive flaw regarding KH2's story that was later "fixed" with FM.
 
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