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Kairi: The Thread



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Face My Fears

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Indifference and hate are not so different. In most cases it is the base upon hate thrives. Case and point, look at the world.
I should think it’s obvious that Kairi is not a favorite of his.
Honestly, I think that Nomura always intended Kairi to just be a plot device/love interest for Sora. But due to the immense amount of time that the series was going on, the world itself changed where having a female character in that position only - let alone a female character deemed a "main character" wasn't really acceptable anymore. Even Disney was changing the way they operated with the princesses like Rapunzel.

I think people are giving Nomura too much crap. His initial ideas for Kairi were probably of indifference and to solely serve Sora. You can't say that he's not trying to solve the Kairi problem with ReMIND and MoM. Vanilla KH3 I can let her treatment slide because NO ONE got as much time as they needed - male or female.

MoM is the determining factor in Kairi's role in the series moving forward for me. Nomura has a chance to make her more active in the plot. The excuse that she can't fight is no longer valid since she can kill Master Xehanort. If Kairi doesn't get course corrected with MoM, then I will say enough chances Nomura.
 

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Sometimes I feel like we give Nomura/Square/Disney too much credit. If Kingdom Hearts were more mainstream and in a different medium, they would’ve been raked across the coals due to the treatment of female characters.

Personally the video game medium and culture enables and ignores so much bs. Problem with female characters? Make them fight in order to mask all the inherent problems with the character. Pushed to the back burner? Put them in the spotlight without addressing anything and continuing on outdated tropes. Works like a charm every time.
 

BassDS

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Indifference and hate are not so different. In most cases it is the base upon hate thrives. Case and point, look at the world.
I should think it’s obvious that Kairi is not a favorite of his.
Sorry, but I find the whole 'Nomura hates Kairi' thing completely baseless considering the fact he WANTED to delve into her backstory and make her playable in some form as far back as KH1, something he stated before in one of the previous Ultimanias.

If he hated her existence within the series, he wouldn't have had plans to want to do that back then.
 

Face My Fears

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Sometimes I feel like we give Nomura/Square/Disney too much credit. If Kingdom Hearts were more mainstream and in a different medium, they would’ve been raked across the coals due to the treatment of female characters.

Personally the video game medium and culture enables and ignores so much bs. Problem with female characters? Make them fight in order to mask all the inherent problems with the character. Pushed to the back burner? Put them in the spotlight without addressing anything and continuing on outdated tropes. Works like a charm every time.
So back in 2002/2003 KH1 would have been raked across the coals for having Kairi as a plot device and missing/kidnapped for most of the game? Or what about in 2006? If KH1 and KH2 were more mainstream in those years, would they have really been torn apart because of its treatment of Kairi/Namine? The honest answer is no. There were not that many female focused films, TV shows and video games (mainstream), let alone the audience demanding for better treatment of female characters. The enormous change in audience demand for the better treatment of female characters came in the 2010s, maybe end of 2000s.

And what would you have Nomura do to fix Kairi? He's taking steps towards improving her character. She was inactive because she wasn't able to fight - use KH3 and ReMIND to show she can fight. She had no backstory, he's using ReMIND to flesh it out. It can't all happen instantaneously in one game. What is there to address about Kairi during the KH1-KH3D time span? Yes, she was missing from a significant portion of the plot because she was trapped on Destiny Islands as a non-fighter.

I don't understand what you people want from Kairi. When she gets nothing, there's complaints. When she gets something, there's complaints. I'm sure even if MoM is amazing and does everything right, there will be complaints "because it wasn't done soon enough".
 

Shramp

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Okay, but is there really an excuse for Kairi being so underutilized despite being considered a main character? She's not a real person, she's a fictional creation who's narrative can be formed and altered on a whim. Nothing was stopping the writers from giving her more focus or making her more proactive earlier in the plot.
 

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Because "getting something" is not enough. Don't waste time featuring Kairi if she's just going to be a walking plot coupon. You could easily refocus the emotions Sora supposedly feels for her onto Riku, Donald and Goofy (if Disney allowed it), the new 7 hearts, literally anyone. Or hell, cut the whole Sora-is-Keyblade Messiah crap down to size and reupholster Aqua/Ven/Terra's plight with MX's capable darkness.
 

Face My Fears

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Okay, but is there really an excuse for Kairi being so underutilized despite being considered a main character? She's not a real person, she's a fictional creation who's narrative can be formed and altered on a whim. Nothing was stopping the writers from giving her more focus or making her more proactive earlier in the plot.
You're absolutely right. But what is the point of pointing the finger of blame over a decade later? However, I will say that the reason Kairi was not used much was simply because Nomura didn't see her as key to the plot, she was simply Sora's love interest/plot device to push Sora forward. Whether that was right or wrong, it was Nomura's story to tell and he chose to use Kairi like that and/or initially intended for her to be used that way.
Because "getting something" is not enough. Don't waste time featuring Kairi if she's just going to be a walking plot coupon. You could easily refocus the emotions Sora supposedly feels for her onto Riku, Donald and Goofy (if Disney allowed it), the new 7 hearts, literally anyone. Or hell, cut the whole Sora-is-Keyblade Messiah crap down to size and reupholster Aqua/Ven/Terra's plight with MX's capable darkness.
How do we know that Kairi will be a "walking plot coupon" after MoM? If you're referring to past games, I thought the complaint was that she wasn't featured enough? Now you're saying don't feature her at all in those games?

Why come down on Kairi without seeing what happens in MoM?
 

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Honestly, I think that Nomura always intended Kairi to just be a plot device/love interest for Sora. But due to the immense amount of time that the series was going on, the world itself changed where having a female character in that position only - let alone a female character deemed a "main character" wasn't really acceptable anymore. Even Disney was changing the way they operated with the princesses like Rapunzel.
I think that's the main reason she's got as much attention from Nomura as she has the past two years--because the real world is rightfully going through a reckoning over the treatment of women which has subsequently trickled down to the treatment of female characters in media. I wouldn't be surprised if MoM (where she isn't even playable...) is what he's considering her "big moment" that he thinks will be enough to shut up the fans, and that the games that follow revert to how she's been used prior... It's more like he's been guilted into doing something with her even though he doesn't really care about her. I guess we'll see if this is genuine on his part or not in the long-term.

I think Nomura does need to do better with his female characters in general in KH though. It's not like he's incapable of creating good female characters, going by FF. I think he has several good ones in KH even, he just needs to actually use them.
 

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Kairi is important to the plot, she is planned to be the love interest for sora. but nomura did say he wanted kairi to be playable in kh1 and have her as the next protagonist. he is reusing ideas from his old development with kh1 cus he either didn't have enough time or that he didn't plan out right.

So i say now she is going to be the hero/main protagonist for now until she saves sora. it was planed that sora was suppose to die like his soul and heart disappear in kh1 and that kairi was suppose to bring him back, and that i mean is like how now kairi needs to save sora. i really believe that kairi will save sora because she is the only one who can. i believe she has the power to save him.

And not to be rude to the SOKU shippers but soku was never teased in kh. sora and riku never hugged or did stuff like sora and kairi do. so SOKAI is the real couple in kh cus its been teased a lot. just because riku and sora can summon a sword, doesn't mean there meant to be. SORA AND KAIRI SHARED PAOU POU FRUIT FOR GODS SAKE!!! even in some type cultural language (i saw online) that there feeding to each other, that's why they have there own fruit. shows love. and when kairi in kh2 told her adventure with sora in kh1, olette said "What a romantic story". and sora and kairi hugged a lot. and sora finally realize that he loves kairi when they went back to the graveyard after they basically died.

and for those who are sceptical about romantic
romantic- conducive to or characterized by the expression of love.
 

Shramp

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You're absolutely right. But what is the point of pointing the finger of blame over a decade later?
Because I'm not too fond of the defense that he wanted to do something with her but couldn't when there were plenty of opportunities. Basically what Tartarus said, I really think he didn't want to do much with her outside of being a plot device but feels pressured to from fans. And that kind of circumstance leads to a lot of half-assing, so I'm keeping my expectations low for the next saga.

And not to be rude to the SOKU shippers but soku was never teased in kh. sora and riku never hugged or did stuff like sora and kairi do. so SOKAI is the real couple in kh cus its been teased a lot. just because riku and sora can summon a sword, doesn't mean there meant to be. SORA AND KAIRI SHARED PAOU POU FRUIT FOR GODS SAKE!!! even in a cultural language that there feeding to each other, that's why they have there own fruit
Not that I disagree but this felt out of nowhere while reading your post.
 

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Because I'm not too fond of the defense that he wanted to do something with her but couldn't when there were plenty of opportunities.



Not that I disagree but this felt out of nowhere while reading your post.
well i'm just saying that soku was never teased and there's no such thing as the gay blade. its like a brotherly blade because there like brothers. sora and kairi had angel wings and each feather has a romantic, important, cool memory of them.
 

Shramp

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well i'm just saying that soku was never teased and there's no such thing as the gay blade. its like a brotherly blade because there like brothers. sora and kairi had angel wings and each feather has a romantic, important, cool memory of them.
But it's irrelevant to the conversation and if you want to talk about romance there is a dedicated thread.
 

Somnus cealum

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Yeah, but it's in the context of Kairi's purpose and treatment in the series, not Sokai v. Soriku.
well i'm just saying that her love for sora was teased a lot in kh that there is enough proof and more solid evidence that sora and kairi could be a future couple. and that she needs more development as a person to make her a better and useful character.
 

Absent

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So back in 2002/2003 KH1 would have been raked across the coals for having Kairi as a plot device and missing/kidnapped for most of the game? Or what about in 2006? If KH1 and KH2 were more mainstream in those years, would they have really been torn apart because of its treatment of Kairi/Namine? The honest answer is no. There were not that many female focused films, TV shows and video games (mainstream), let alone the audience demanding for better treatment of female characters. The enormous change in audience demand for the better treatment of female characters came in the 2010s, maybe end of 2000s.

And what would you have Nomura do to fix Kairi? He's taking steps towards improving her character. She was inactive because she wasn't able to fight - use KH3 and ReMIND to show she can fight. She had no backstory, he's using ReMIND to flesh it out. It can't all happen instantaneously in one game. What is there to address about Kairi during the KH1-KH3D time span? Yes, she was missing from a significant portion of the plot because she was trapped on Destiny Islands as a non-fighter.

I don't understand what you people want from Kairi. When she gets nothing, there's complaints. When she gets something, there's complaints. I'm sure even if MoM is amazing and does everything right, there will be complaints "because it wasn't done soon enough".
Here's the thing: I never defended or mentioned 1 and 2. What happened back then was shoddy, especially in an ever changing world. You can make all the excuses you want, but just because bad stuff was excused back then still doesn't make it right.

Also Fear My Face I need you understand this. It's too late to change my mind about Nomura's negligence regarding Kairi. It's fine, you'll live despite me not liking his decisions. I don't want Nomura do to anything with her, and that's my issue with it.
At the end of the day I'll keep criticizing Nomura, its what gets me off. I'm his biggest critic that he doesn't give a damn about. The man lives in peace, oblivious to my bitter existence, so don't worry about Nomura's skills or honor.

Btw you're right on the money, you're finally understanding how this works.

I'm sure even if MoM is amazing and does everything right, there will be complaints "because it wasn't done soon enough".
 

Face My Fears

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I think that's the main reason she's got as much attention from Nomura as she has the past two years--because the real world is rightfully going through a reckoning over the treatment of women which has subsequently trickled down to the treatment of female characters in media. I wouldn't be surprised if MoM (where she isn't even playable...) is what he's considering her "big moment" that he thinks will be enough to shut up the fans, and that the games that follow revert to how she's been used prior... It's more like he's been guilted into doing something with her even though he doesn't really care about her. I guess we'll see if this is genuine on his part or not in the long-term.

I think Nomura does need to do better with his female characters in general in KH though. It's not like he's incapable of creating good female characters, going by FF. I think he has several good ones in KH even, he just needs to actually use them.
I agree that I think Nomura's been somewhat guilted into doing more with Kairi specifically due to the changing world. But I don't think he necessarily hates her, like some people seem to believe. I just think he was content with her in a bystander role. Although, if that were the case, it makes me wonder why he even chose to let her get a keyblade in KH2 and be shown fighting with it instead of cowering in a corner waiting for Sora/Riku to save her.

Frankly, I know the light is shone on the female characters a lot, but what about the male characters? Getting screentime/being playable doesn't make them good characters either. If we're talking strictly good characters - IE a good character arc, I think the only characters to even get that are Riku and maybe Roxas/Xion (theirs suffered due to them being brought back to life).

So that makes me wonder whether this is a question of just female characters or characters in KH as a whole? Larxene is more charismatic than half the other Organization members. The main villain of the game had his motive changed at the very end of his saga. There were so many retcons and "surprise" revelations for characters that not many could even have consistent story arcs.

But the KH fan in me actually... likes that. Because I see KH as one, ever growing story, so I always have the optimism that one day there will be closure. Like Kairi getting attention on how she left Radiant Garden now, I expected Nomura to bring that up eventually and here it is... like 15 years later. Is that good storytelling - nope. It's Kingdom Hearts.
Because I'm not too fond of the defense that he wanted to do something with her but couldn't when there were plenty of opportunities. Basically what Tartarus said, I really think he didn't want to do much with her outside of being a plot device but feels pressured to from fans. And that kind of circumstance leads to a lot of half-assing, so I'm keeping my expectations low for the next saga.
After KH2, there were times that Kairi should have been used. I actually think that Kairi should have been the one to jump in and save Sora/Riku from Master Xehanort in KH3D instead of Lea. She already had a keyblade and it would have given that trio a special moment. You're right that she could have been used more, but I honestly feel like Nomura wrote himself into a corner. He brought up the 7 lights things, he was low on numbers and Lea existed, so he slapped a keyblade on him and made him one of the lights. I'm hoping in the next saga, he learned from his mistakes and doesn't get trapped like he did in the Dark Seeker Saga.
Here's the thing: I never defended or mentioned 1 and 2. What happened back then was shoddy, especially in an ever changing world. You can make all the excuses you want, but just because bad stuff was excused back then still doesn't make it right.

Also Fear My Face I need you understand this. It's too late to change my mind about Nomura's negligence regarding Kairi. It's fine, you'll live despite me not liking his decisions. I don't want Nomura do to anything with her, and that's my issue with it.
At the end of the day I'll keep criticizing Nomura, its what gets me off. I'm his biggest critic that he doesn't give a damn about. The man lives in peace, oblivious to my bitter existence, so don't worry about Nomura's skills or honor.

Btw you're right on the money, you're finally understanding how this works.
So then just have Kairi killed off, that's your solution to the "Kairi problem"?
 

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Face my Fears, my friend, my compañero....

When. Did. I. Say. That?

Like why bother discussing things when you’re obviously already putting words or imagining things I never said or even in the faintest implied? Like I know I troll a lot, but you’re giving me a run for my money.
 
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