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Kairi: The Thread



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May-Jor

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Hmm maybe not as relevant as I thought maybe I overhyped some of them however let me break my point for you

Ava I don’t really need to explain

Invi a foreteller and has a role in the story since MoM picked her

Skuld and strilitzia are also were chosen by MoM as being part of his plan and the story

I know the relevance is not strong but at least it’s something, but yea now that I rethink it it’s mostly Ava that’s relevant and maybe Skuld to some extent since she is union leader and subject X.

As much as I like the UX girls, Ava's the only one who is very proactive in the story. Strelitzia kiiinda was til she got fridged. Skuld seems to be the least involved Union leader, and while we currently don't know much about Subject X I can easily see that becoming another case of "crappy female writing" depending on what they decide to do with her later on.

Also Invi is a cardboard cut-out and Elrena only serves to tag along with Lauriam at this point.
 

AdrianXXII

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Light-based powers she hadn't learned how to harness yet, and training that didn't begin until after the game???

Like I'm not disagreeing that Kairi should have been involved somehow in 3D, I just think this scenario Face My Fears proposed ain't it.
That's fair. If it were straight out Post-KH2 Kairi, it's be more of a Deus ex Machina moment where Kairi, miraculously can defend Sora again, than a cool big save.

I was more thinking that they could have had Kairi Training in the Secret Forest, while Sora and Riku were doing their Mark of Mastery. It seems like a better excuse for her being absent then just sitting around on the islands, until she's fetched. This would also make her being the one to do the big save more plausible.
 

*TwilightNight*

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I don't think Nomura is sexist or (at least before KH3) aware that he was writing the female characters poorly. Nomura wrote the story he wanted to tell and ultimately, I don't think it was that he wrote the female characters like crap intentionally, but rather the story just got so out of control. Yes, there are things like the Organization being a ratio of 1/2 females to 13 males, but even then there are a lot of male characters that suffer with nothing (like Aeleus). I think the light is shone on the females more because they are so scarce anyway.

I don't think Nomura is sexist, he just wrote the actual story/execution of the Dark Seeker Saga poorly. My view of this may change if Phase 2 retains the same "mistakes" as Phase 1.

Increasing the number of female characters, even though they may get ignored and written poorly, at least increases the chances that some may get proper treatment. I know it's pathetic to hope for better treatment through increasing the number of female characters. It's better than having more male characters that get ignored and written poorly, that also take away time from the other female characters.

I will say that I think MoM will be revolutionary to the KH series because all the female characters are no longer in peril or trapped, and they all have access to their full abilities (more or less). Nomura had excuses during the Dark Seeker Saga for why certain characters like Kairi couldn't be involved (whether they were good or not, I won't get into that), but now there are no excuses. Which is why I think MoM was a natural game to pop up in the series at this point. In the story world, Kairi can FINALLY do something to find Sora and she actually does. She isn't stranded on an island or "not trained", so I like that Nomura did the logical/natural thing and had Kairi begin the search for Sora or at least be a major part of it.

He's very much a sexist at this rate. Sexism, by definition, is to act or show prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination against women on the basis of sex. Just the fact that he didn't know Aqua was going to be so popular and stating in an interview the female characters are hard to write, already paints females as some sort of species that are difficult to comprehend when they are obviously not. Whatever he does to his male characters are what he should be doing to the female characters instead. He's the typical, sexist, conservative middle-aged Japanese man in the director's position and he's outdated. Doesn't help that in Japan there are certain traits that females need to have to be desirable and cute.

That's why all the KH female characters share the same personality with different recolors compared to the more dynamic and varied male cast of characters. Nomura wrote twelve men, all with different personalities. But the girls have to be always sweet and nice. The only one that's mildly contrasting is Naminé because she's more painted as a Yamato Nadeshiko trope than someone with a blithe spirit. And Larxene...she's self explainable.

Literally every female in KH did things or worked to help a man. There are no female friendships with depth unlike the amount of guy friendships (gawd, Aqua even comments in BBS how she's jealous of the friendship between guys...like are you fucking kidding me). KHIII was an insult, to the point of audacity. Kairi (who already has a history of being mistreated before this) was fridged for no other reason than to give Sora manpain, Naminè didn't get to interact with the people she had build up with but instead gets thrown, alone, isolated from the rest, to close Riku Replica's arc as some trophy wife for his "sacrifice". Mind you, Nomura is aware of Naminè's issue, there are meta hints, but did absolute shit to help it because he had a boner for Repliku all of a sudden. Larxene? Larxene, of all people, got thrown that she had no other purpose or motivation to join an Organization full of men other than to follow some...man. A man that she didn't exchange a word with at all in CoM. Wow, wonder how long that took Nomura to think about. Actually, why wasn't she the one with the backstory? With a little sister? Why is it Marluxia? Another male character given effort and relevance over the girl. Nomura sees Riku low with votes on a poll, oh no, gotta do something about that. Never shows this reaction with the female characters.

He probably wasn't going to give Kairi anything if it wasn't for the backlash. And the narrator was originally going to be Chirithy. It shouldn't take a group of fans to demand better for the female characters. KHIII was just the accumulation of everything awful, but Nomura's been problematic since KHI. Banking on MoM to fix things without knowing how the game itself is going to be for Kairi is flimsy.

If I replied earlier, I would have written more, but it seems a lot of people after me gave great examples. Nomura's a sexist and it'll be near impossible to convince me otherwise.

It's beyond ridiculous now. There's only so many excuses we can give this guy. If he was in the West, he would have been reamed 8-10 years ago.
 
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2 quid is good

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KH and Naruto share a lot of the same issues, what with the pigeonholing of trios, and the writer's apparently inability to successfully write a female character.

I guess the difference being even Naruto gets to mix and match characters every so often
 

*TwilightNight*

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KH and Naruto share a lot of the same issues, what with the pigeonholing of trios, and the writer's apparently inability to successfully write a female character.

I guess the difference being even Naruto gets to mix and match characters every so often

If no one told me, I would have easily believed Naruto and Kingdom Hearts were controlled by the same man. Seriously. Except Kairi doesn't end up with Riku and is in fact in love with the Naruto [Sora]. Kairi also never treated anyone like shit.

Otherwise, it's the "difference between the two pictures" meme.
 

Cumguardian69

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Cept Naruto bothered to kill off the love interest in an actually shocking way (Hinata got BONED by Pain and you cant tell me that that fight wasn't freaking epic if drawn out), put the clown's love interest in her place (Sakura was ALWAYS a Tsunade-lite, even before the Fifth's introduction), and in general attempted to use some female characters in moderately interesting capacities (Ryuzetsu, the chinoike girl, Ino, etc)
 

Face My Fears

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Skuld has contributed next to nothing as Union leader. While the boys are off planning for the future, trying to uncover some scheme or searching for their dead sister, she's just hanging out with Ven. When they have group meetings, she doesn't share anything worthwhile and just expresses generic sad or concerned comments.

Regardless of what her role is, it doesn't change the fact that she is far less involved in the plot than the boys, and that's a real shame.

Likewise goes for Invi and the others. Just having an important role is not enough to be deemed a good character. They need to actually be proactive and contribute something of value.


Light-based powers she hadn't learned how to harness yet, and training that didn't begin until after the game???

Like I'm not disagreeing that Kairi should have been involved somehow in 3D, I just think this scenario Face My Fears proposed ain't it.
I was proposing an alternate version of events. In coded, they could have slipped in a scene of Kairi training at the end or something, which would allow her to appear in 3D and save Sora. I mean, you can buy Axel saving Sora, but not Kairi? Axel, the guy that killed himself because he couldn't beat Dusks? I think anyone going into that room would have been overwhelmed, but that doesn't mean Nomura couldn't just write Kairi into being "powerful". If the complaint is that we should see her become powerful, we didn't see Riku become powerful in KH1, just get a magic darkness glow effect. Why is Kairi being examined under a microscope for having "no training" and not being "believable" in combat, yet Sora kills all the heartless in Destiny Islands and Darkside on his first outing with the keyblade and that's believable? Sora can beat Leon immediately after waking up from his world being destroyed and that's believable? Where's the scrutiny of those situations? Why is it that Kairi needs intensive training that we get full coverage on to be "believable"?

How many people would have been genuinely upset or disappointed that Kairi showed up to save Sora in KH3D instead of Axel? I don't think many. In fact, it would have been nice to actual integrate her into the main plot. I think it could have been great if Kairi showed up recklessly, against Mickey's wishes, to save Sora. She could have struggled and Axel show up to help out, but it could have initiated her storyline in KH3 - to train to get better. It would have given her an actual situation that prompted her to grow as a character. Instead in KH3, the training is just because she has to rather than an organic progression for her character.

He's very much a sexist at this rate. Sexism, by definition, is to act or show prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination against women on the basis of sex. Just the fact that he didn't know Aqua was going to be so popular and stating in an interview the female characters are hard to write, already paints females as some sort of species that are difficult to comprehend when they are obviously not. Whatever he does to his male characters are what he should be doing to the female characters instead. He's the typical, sexist, conservative middle-aged Japanese man in the director's position and he's outdated. Doesn't help that in Japan there are certain traits that females need to have to be desirable and cute.

That's why all the KH female characters share the same personality with different recolors compared to the more dynamic and varied male cast of characters. Nomura wrote twelve men, all with different personalities. But the girls have to be always sweet and nice. The only one that's mildly contrasting is Naminé because she's more painted as a Yamato Nadeshiko trope than someone with a blithe spirit. And Larxene...she's self explainable.

Literally every female in KH did things or worked to help a man. There are no female friendships with depth unlike the amount of guy friendships (gawd, Aqua even comments in BBS how she's jealous of the friendship between guys...like are you fucking kidding me). KHIII was an insult, to the point of audacity. Kairi (who already has a history of being mistreated before this) was fridged for no other reason than to give Sora manpain, Naminè didn't get to interact with the people she had build up with but instead gets thrown, alone, isolated from the rest, to close Riku Replica's arc as some trophy wife for his "sacrifice". Mind you, Nomura is aware of Naminè's issue, there are meta hints, but did absolute shit to help it because he had a boner for Repliku all of a sudden. Larxene? Larxene, of all people, got thrown that she had no other purpose or motivation to join an Organization full of men other than to follow some...man. A man that she didn't exchange a word with at all in CoM. Wow, wonder how long that took Nomura to think about. Actually, why wasn't she the one with the backstory? With a little sister? Why is it Marluxia? Another male character given effort and relevance over the girl. Nomura sees Riku low with votes on a poll, oh no, gotta do something about that. Never shows this reaction with the female characters.

He probably wasn't going to give Kairi anything if it wasn't for the backlash. And the narrator was originally going to be Chirithy. It shouldn't take a group of fans to demand better for the female characters. KHIII was just the accumulation of everything awful, but Nomura's been problematic since KHI. Banking on MoM to fix things without knowing how the game itself is going to be for Kairi is flimsy.

If I replied earlier, I would have written more, but it seems a lot of people after me gave great examples. Nomura's a sexist and it'll be near impossible to convince me otherwise.

It's beyond ridiculous now. There's only so many excuses we can give this guy. If he was in the West, he would have been reamed 8-10 years ago.
Maybe it is a Japanese thing, I don't know. There's basically two archetypes of female characters in KH - motherly, kind, and pure (Aqua/Kairi) or innocent victim (Xion/Namine). Larxene is well, Larxene.

I disagree though that Nomura should just do what he does for the men for the women. I would hate for him to initially write out a male character, then just swap the gender at the end. I don't think that does justice for a well written female character.

I'm going to stand by what I said and say that I don't think Nomura is intentionally doing sexist things. The issue I think is that there aren't any (or many) female writers involved with KH. Does anyone know if there are any female writers that help with the story?

And again, you're the second or third person to suggest that if Nomura was in the West 10 years ago he would have been torn apart. I don't think so. The real movement to get better female representation in media, at least the movement becoming mainstream, was maybe 5-6 years ago.

KH isn't like a TV series where fixes can be implemented within a few episodes that will air in a month's time, so you really can't judge Nomura that harshly until you see what he does now that we know he is aware. I believe you can't expect someone to do the right thing, if they're not aware of it. Sure, it's bad that Nomura didn't know that he was writing the female characters horribly, but now that he is aware and actively trying to make changes... it's only fair to judge him from this point moving forward. So yes, judge him by KH3 - hot mess for female characters - but it was a hot mess for everyone, and Nomura even admitted how hard it was to write the story.

I know that you've been mortally wounded by Nomura's actions in past KH games, but I say the true litmus test on whether Nomura is actually changing for the better will be MoM. He doesn't have the baggage he had for KH3, so there are no excuses.
 

Sign

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I was proposing an alternate version of events. In coded, they could have slipped in a scene of Kairi training at the end or something, which would allow her to appear in 3D and save Sora. I mean, you can buy Axel saving Sora, but not Kairi? Axel, the guy that killed himself because he couldn't beat Dusks? I think anyone going into that room would have been overwhelmed, but that doesn't mean Nomura couldn't just write Kairi into being "powerful". If the complaint is that we should see her become powerful, we didn't see Riku become powerful in KH1, just get a magic darkness glow effect. Why is Kairi being examined under a microscope for having "no training" and not being "believable" in combat, yet Sora kills all the heartless in Destiny Islands and Darkside on his first outing with the keyblade and that's believable? Sora can beat Leon immediately after waking up from his world being destroyed and that's believable? Where's the scrutiny of those situations? Why is it that Kairi needs intensive training that we get full coverage on to be "believable"?

coded took place right after KH2, so naturally Kairi would be spending the time catching up with Sora and Riku instead of immediately jumping into the fray. It's not like they returned under the assumption that they would immediately be thrust instead another huge conflict.

Your proposition is abandoning common sense to justify Kairi's presence and involvement in ways that she can't be participating in. Just immediately introducing Kairi as an amazing combatant with the most powerful abilities when she has not been established as such and showed no signs prior is extremely unrewarding and undeserving.

You bring up Sora and Riku and why they are not judged in the same vein as Kairi. Maybe you should reflect on your own words and think about why that is so instead of randomly bringing up a completely unrelated situation to accuse others simply because they are not on board with your ideas.
 

Elysium

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Maybe it is a Japanese thing, I don't know. There's basically two archetypes of female characters in KH - motherly, kind, and pure (Aqua/Kairi) or innocent victim (Xion/Namine). Larxene is well, Larxene.
Larxene represents another type... I think you all know what word I'm thinking of, lol.

I actually do agree with some of what you're saying in regards to Kairi. While I wouldn't have wanted her to be in 3D for my own biased reasons of not liking the character, I agree that it wouldn't have been unbelievable for her to intervene and help Mickey mess up Xehanort's plans there thanks in part to her PoH powers. I actually think she and Lea should've come together--it would've setup them being paired in KH3, too. Some of what you were saying here actually reminds me of a conversation I've been having about Raya elsewhere, over whether or not we need to see her "become" a strong fighter character. But, Idk, do we see Aladdin become a master thief? I'm never against showing things, but sometimes the bars made for a female character to cross are too high or nonsensical. And you could say the same in regards to, say, Aqua? Do we need to see her training up to the point she got to the level of Keyblade Master? Can't we just accept what the story is saying on that point the way we do Riku being very strong at the beginning of KH1?

But I understand where @Sign is coming from on this particular point, too, as far as a pre-existing female character--not being introduced for the first time like Raya in her film or Aqua in BbS, but having been around for a long time at this point--going from 0 to 50 over the span of one game would make a lot of us roll our eyes. That said, and maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think Lea's interruption of the Xehanort's worked because of his power level? My impression of that scene is that any decent fighter could've caused the same interruption that wastes more of Xehanort's time. After all, Donald & Goofy helped run down the clock, too. Kairi could've worked there doing the same.
 
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Face My Fears

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coded took place right after KH2, so naturally Kairi would be spending the time catching up with Sora and Riku instead of immediately jumping into the fray. It's not like they returned under the assumption that they would immediately be thrust instead another huge conflict.

Your proposition is abandoning common sense to justify Kairi's presence and involvement in ways that she can't be participating in. Just immediately introducing Kairi as an amazing combatant with the most powerful abilities when she has not been established as such and showed no signs prior is extremely unrewarding and undeserving.

You bring up Sora and Riku and why they are not judged in the same vein as Kairi. Maybe you should reflect on your own words and think about why that is so instead of randomly bringing up a completely unrelated situation to accuse others simply because they are not on board with your ideas.
I didn't accuse you of anything.

I'm just saying that you want to look at the situation I presented with extreme logic and scrutiny, yet not taking into account that this is Kingdom Hearts. If Nomura wants something to happen, he can make it happen.

Even in KH3 and the current canon, Kairi is established as capable and fully trained because the training happened off-screen in a magical forest that defies time. Since time doesn't matter there, couldn't she have been placed in that forest when Sora/Riku went off to do their Mark of Mastery, then when they needed her she could have appeared and stalled for time - like Axel did. I mean think about it, Kairi's training was rushed and never shown, so does it really matter if it was moved to KH3D instead of KH3? Either way she was going to be trained off-screen and just become an amazing fighter.

I brought up Sora/Riku because you were examining Kairi with such scrutiny and logic. If Kairi shouldn't be expected to handle the keyblade and fight because she "isn't trained", then how did Mickey/Leon expect that of Sora? I'm not making it a gender thing, I'm talking storytelling. We accept that Sora can at least handle himself because the story tells us so (otherwise there would be no story). We saw Kairi fighting some heartless in KH2, so that suggests that she can at least handle herself. I just don't understand why it's so hard to buy Kairi jumping in to save Sora in KH3D. It's believable and accepted that Rapunzel can fight heartless with a frying pan, Ariel can fight heartless with her bare hands, a doll made of cloth (Woody) can survive heartless attacks, but Kairi making a surprise appearance to STALL Master Xehanort for a minute or two is unacceptable and totally unbelievable? My point is that Kairi should not be under such scrutiny of logic, unless you look at everything else in the game with that same lens.

But there's no point in that because Kingdom Hearts has it's own logic (Nomura's) and if he wants something to be, it can and will. If he wanted Kairi to be "trained", he could have had it happen with a one-liner and thus it would become canon. We never saw Riku, Aqua, Terra, Ven, Axel, Donald, Goofy, Mickey, Tarzan, Aladdin, Ariel, Jack Skellington, Peter Pan, Simba, The Beast, Jack Sparrow, Woody, Buzz, MIKE WAZOWSKI, Sulley, Rapunzel, Flynn and others train - yet we accept them all capable on the battlefield.

My belief is that Kairi would have been (storywise) the best choice to have saved Sora, especially to build up to KH3 and actually reunite the trio (and give them something to do together). I just think that Nomura chose Lea because he was backed into a corner with the 7 lights situation, and didn't want to give away Roxas/Xion/Ven/Aqua/Terra's potential future status. He needed a moment to give Lea the keyblade and he took it... and in my opinion, that was at the expense of Kairi's development and the story in general. Actually having Sora/Riku/Kairi look at Master Xehanort for the first time and confront him would have been epic and a much better build to KH3. It would also really light a fire under Kairi to complete her training (character development), to make sure that Xehanort can't hurt her friends again AND get revenge on Ansem - there could have been a bit of dialogue between Ansem and Kairi in that scene.

But it was wasted. Another approach to the scene would be Kairi running in recklessly (with no training), getting beat, but at least buying time which then prompts her to become less reckless and smarter on the battlefield AND want to complete her training - at least giving her something going into KH3, rather than writing poems for Sora while training off-screen, then dying. It could also add to Kairi's character that she learned from her mistakes, while Sora runs recklessly into danger for his friends, she can be smarter and hold back and analyze things. ANYTHING to give her genuine growth.
Larxene represents another type... I think you all know what word I'm thinking of, lol.

I actually do agree with some of what you're saying in regards to Kairi. While I wouldn't have wanted her to be in 3D for my own biased reasons of not liking the character, I agree that it wouldn't have been unbelievable for her to intervene and help Mickey mess up Xehanort's plans there thanks in part to her PoH powers. I actually think she and Lea should've come together--it would've setup them being paired in KH3, too. Some of what you were saying here actually reminds me of a conversation I've been having about Raya elsewhere, over whether or not we need to see her "become" a strong fighter character. But, Idk, do we see Aladdin become a master thief? I'm never against showing things, but sometimes the bars made for a female character to cross are too high or nonsensical. And you could say the same in regards to, say, Aqua? Do we need to see her training up to the point she got to the level of Keyblade Master? Can't we just accept what the story is saying on that point the way we do Riku being very strong at the beginning of KH1?

But I understand where @Sign is coming from on this particular point, too, as far as a pre-existing female character--not being introduced for the first time like Raya in her film or Aqua in BbS, but having been around for a long time at this point--going from 0 to 50 over the span of one game would make a lot of us roll our eyes. That said, and maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think Lea's interruption of the Xehanort's worked because of his power level? My impression of that scene is that any decent fighter could've caused the same interruption that wastes more of Xehanort's time. After all, Donald & Goofy helped run down the clock, too. Kairi could've worked there doing the same.
You're right. Kairi/Axel coming together in 3D would have set up KH3 nicely. In fact, I can imagine a scenario where Axel approaches Kairi for help - knowing that she wouldn't let Sora get hurt. That sort of reckless behaviour I can buy from Axel, especially considering that if Sora gets killed, then Roxas does too. It would have justified the "unqualified" Kairi making an appearance - even if she got beat.

Given KH's storytelling nature, some things will be lucky if they even get a line or mention in the game. Kairi's training - even after it's major hype - got literally nothing since we never even see it. So in my opinion, if we weren't going to see it in KH3, they could have moved it anywhere beforehand and let Kairi be active in KH3D somehow. Not only that, but it would free her up to do SOMETHING in KH3 instead of - yet again - being trapped somewhere offscreen until the plot needed her (to die).
 

Sign

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Edit: I'll expand on this:

You brought up the Disney characters and why they're not judged the same way as Kairi even though they're not fighters in the original films. The reason nobody does that because within the realm of KH, right after these characters were introduced, they immediately joined the party, thereby establishing them as combatants ("establish" is a keyword here). Nobody questions whether or not that falls in line with how they're depicted in the source material because this is how they are presented in the games right from the get-go.

Contrast that with Kairi. What did she do after she was introduced? She stood on the sidelines making arts and crafts while all the other kids sparred. Is it possible that she did participate with them on other occasions? Absolutely, it'd be weird for her not to. But as with all things, we need show, we need tell, we don't have either, so we're left to assume that roughhousing just isn't her thing. This is how her character was established, and now that it has been so, we have to work within the confines of that and develop her from there. To go from 0 to 80 would be unearned and undeserved.

And herein lies the crux of my problem with your proposal: I just don't believe it doesn't works with the material we have. It seems like you want to give her the Xion treatment: involve her in certain ways and then make the other characters and plot accommodate her whether it makes sense or not. (Some examples of what I'm talking about are all the times Xion ran rampant with nobody really giving a fuck, and DiZ waiting around for months on end letting the situation get worse before actually taking the gloves off.)

Let's take the confrontation in 3D: Axel, Donald and Goofy drop in unexpectedly to interrupt Sora's corruption and waste the Organization's time so they have no choice but to call their plan off. Could Kairi have participated in this? Absolutely! But why would Yen Sid send her in? At this point in the story, Kairi had only just recently received her Keyblade. She hadn't had any experience in battle or even play-combat. Yen Sid knows this, so do you think he would even allow her to go in at all? That would be extremely irresponsible of him. He is at least reasonable enough to wait until she has some training before sending her off to her potential death lol

At the end of the day, your whataboutism entirely misses the point. You bring up all these other characters demanding to know why they are not scrutinized like Kairi, without actually understanding why that may be so. It's got nothing to do with bias like you've been implying; these characters were flat out not set up the same way she has, and the scenarios in which they participate in do not require a huge stretch of the imagination to work.

And again, my problem is not with Kairi herself. I just don't like your idea :p
 
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Face My Fears

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Edit: I'll expand on this:

You brought up the Disney characters and why they're not judged the same way as Kairi even though they're not fighters in the original films. The reason nobody does that because within the realm of KH, right after these characters were introduced, they immediately joined the party, thereby establishing them as combatants ("establish" is a keyword here). Nobody questions whether or not that falls in line with how they're depicted in the source material because this is how they are presented in the games right from the get-go.

Contrast that with Kairi. What did she do after she was introduced? She stood on the sidelines making arts and crafts while all the other kids sparred. Is it possible that she did participate with them on other occasions? Absolutely, it'd be weird for her not to. But as with all things, we need show, we need tell, we don't have either, so we're left to assume that roughhousing just isn't her thing. This is how her character was established, and now that it has been so, we have to work within the confines of that and develop her from there. To go from 0 to 80 would be unearned and undeserved.

And herein lies the crux of my problem with your proposal: I just don't believe it doesn't works with the material we have. It seems like you want to give her the Xion treatment: involve her in certain ways and then make the other characters and plot accommodate her whether it makes sense or not. (Some examples of what I'm talking about are all the times Xion ran rampant with nobody really giving a fuck, and DiZ waiting around for months on end letting the situation get worse before actually taking the gloves off.)

Let's take the confrontation in 3D: Axel, Donald and Goofy drop in unexpectedly to interrupt Sora's corruption and waste the Organization's time so they have no choice but to call their plan off. Could Kairi have participated in this? Absolutely! But why would Yen Sid send her in? At this point in the story, Kairi had only just recently received her Keyblade. She hadn't had any experience in battle or even play-combat. Yen Sid knows this, so do you think he would even allow her to go in at all? That would be extremely irresponsible of him. He is at least reasonable enough to wait until she has some training before sending her off to her potential death lol

At the end of the day, your whataboutism entirely misses the point. You bring up all these other characters demanding to know why they are not scrutinized like Kairi, without actually understanding why that may be so. It's got nothing to do with bias like you've been implying; these characters were flat out not set up the same way she has, and the scenarios in which they participate in do not require a huge stretch of the imagination to work.

And again, my problem is not with Kairi herself. I just don't like your idea :p
So just because Mike Wazowski was added to the party, he's been "confirmed" to be a combatant and capable of fighting the Unversed? Yes, I can accept that.

If you're referring to the time we see of them on Destiny Islands at the start of KH1, she wasn't making arts and crafts while everyone else was roughhousing. She was working on the raft. You make it seem like she just wants to sit in a corner and write, when she was running on the beach with Sora and Riku. We don't know if she ever fought with the rest of them because the story needed her to be building the raft and the game needed her to be the NPC to talk to get the tasks to move the game forward.

Kairi has repeatedly SHOWN (since you seem to need this on-screen) that she is willing to get involved and has TOLD (again since you seem to need this to validate Kairi) us that she is tired of sitting on the sidelines and wants to fight. KH3D could have been her breaking point, especially now that she has a keyblade, to do something reckless and go in to the fight. Axel could have sought her out in desperation to join the fight. They could have had a scene at the start of the game where Sora/Riku/Kairi are all with Yen Sid, and he delegates their tasks (Sora/Riku - Mark of Mastery; Kairi - magical forest training).

I still don't see how Kairi jumping in to save Sora in KH3D - whether she had training or not - is a huge stretch of imagination. Is it that the series asks you to stretch the imagination so far that you couldn't handle just a little more for Kairi?

I get that you may not like the scenario, but I don't think your reasoning makes sense given everything else that we've witnessed in this series.
 

Sign

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So just because Mike Wazowski was added to the party, he's been "confirmed" to be a combatant and capable of fighting the Unversed? Yes, I can accept that.

Mike is introduced as a monster. We see that he is capable of monstrous things. He immediately joins the party. That is how KH establishes this character, and is the reason nobody questions why he is involved in that way.

Kairi is introduced as a normal girl. She has fun with her friends and does arts and crafts. She does not join the battlefield until KH2, where we see her holding a weapon for the first time. The series establishes that she begins to receive proper combat training several installments later. This is how she is presented, and why the audience would question the ways in which she would be involved if it conflicts with this.

If you're referring to the time we see of them on Destiny Islands at the start of KH1, she wasn't making arts and crafts while everyone else was roughhousing. She was working on the raft. You make it seem like she just wants to sit in a corner and write, when she was running on the beach with Sora and Riku. We don't know if she ever fought with the rest of them because the story needed her to be building the raft and the game needed her to be the NPC to talk to get the tasks to move the game forward.

This is a character in a video game. Show or tell what they are capable of. If you do neither, that leaves the audience with nothing.

Kairi has repeatedly SHOWN (since you seem to need this on-screen) that she is willing to get involved and has TOLD (again since you seem to need this to validate Kairi) us that she is tired of sitting on the sidelines and wants to fight. KH3D could have been her breaking point, especially now that she has a keyblade, to do something reckless and go in to the fight. Axel could have sought her out in desperation to join the fight. They could have had a scene at the start of the game where Sora/Riku/Kairi are all with Yen Sid, and he delegates their tasks (Sora/Riku - Mark of Mastery; Kairi - magical forest training).

I don't know how to make this easier for you to understand. You repeatedly insist that your proposal is possible when it conflicts with what has been established. This isn't simply "just toss Kairi into this event and she'll fit right in." Rather than involving Kairi in ways that fit her character, you want to immediately toss her right into the fray, expecting the plot and other characters to just rewrite themselves to accommodate that scenario. That doesn't work for me. We need proper build up otherwise, as myself and others have explained numerous times, the efforts would go unearned and undeserved.

Why would Axel seek her out of all people? What would he think she could do? Why would she go with him when we know of her struggles learning how to trust him? You are having to rewrite more of both characters and games to reach your ideal outcome. From my perspective, a better alternative would use what we have to work with instead of making so many alterations.

I still don't see how Kairi jumping in to save Sora in KH3D - whether she had training or not - is a huge stretch of imagination. Is it that the series asks you to stretch the imagination so far that you couldn't handle just a little more for Kairi?

The games aren't asking me of this, you are. Sorry, but I have unlimited tolerance for one, not so much for the other :p

I get that you may not like the scenario, but I don't think your reasoning makes sense given everything else that we've witnessed in this series.

Funny considering literally everyone else in this thread have read my posts and understand why I'm not jiving with your proposed scenario, but you've repeatedly been taking it as some kind of personal attack on the character.

I'll just let you have the last word, I'm not wasting anymore time justifying a matter of opinion.
 
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Face My Fears

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Mike is introduced as a monster. We see that he is capable of monstrous things. He immediately joins the party. That is how KH establishes this character, and is the reason nobody questions why he is involved in that way.

Kairi is introduced as a normal girl. She has fun with her friends and does arts and crafts. She does not join the battlefield until KH2, where we see her holding a weapon for the first time. The series establishes that she begins to receive proper combat training several installments later. This is how she is presented, and why the audience would question the ways in which she would be involved if it conflicts with this.



This is a character in a video game. Show or tell what they are capable of. If you do neither, that leaves the audience with nothing.



I don't know how to make this easier for you to understand. You repeatedly insist that your proposal is possible when it conflicts with what has been established. This isn't simply "just toss Kairi into this event and she'll fit right in." Rather than involving Kairi in ways that fit her character, you want to immediately toss her right into the fray, expecting the plot and other characters to just rewrite themselves to accommodate that scenario. That doesn't work for me. We need proper build up otherwise, as myself and others have explained numerous times, the efforts would go unearned and undeserved.

Why would Axel seek her out of all people? What would he think she could do? Why would she go with him when we know of her struggles learning how to trust him? You are having to rewrite more of both characters and games to reach your ideal outcome. From my perspective, a better alternative would use what we have to work with instead of making so many alterations.



The games aren't asking me of this, you are. Sorry, but I have unlimited tolerance for one, not so much for the other :p



Funny considering literally everyone else in this thread have read my posts and understand why I'm not jiving with your proposed scenario, but you've repeatedly been taking it as some kind of personal attack on the character.

I'll just let you have the last word, I'm not wasting anymore time justifying a matter of opinion.
I'm just going to say this - you want proper build up for Kairi, yet there are so many other things in the series that don't have proper build up. Why is Kairi being held to this standard? Where was the build up to Axel getting a keyblade? To Aqua being part of KH1? To Xemnas being Xehanort's nobody? To Xehanort possessing Terra and actually being the apprentice that we saw in KH2? To Riku getting a keyblade? To Kairi getting a keyblade? To Donald being able to blow up Terranort? The list goes on and on with KH.

You say that if they just threw Kairi into that scene in KH3D it would be unearned and undeserved, well I agree with you there, except that Kairi deserved something before KH3 and to me that was the moment for it.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree because a lot of things haven't been explained, shown or even told in this series, yet we accept it. I don't see why Kairi being able to fight or at least hold off Xehanort for a minute is so hard to believe.

To the point I made about Axel reaching out to her - like I said it was out of desperation. I'm always looking for ways to allow characters to interact organically. Axel knew that Mickey and Riku were going to the Organization's stronghold. Axel could have been worried and reached out to Kairi for help. This could start their friendship - onscreen - instead of just being thrown together in KH3 with one line "he's changed!" We could have actually seen Axel apologize to Kairi and explain how he needs to protect Sora because Roxas is still in him. We could have seen Kairi actively decide that she's going to fight, which leads her to want to train and get better. It also allows Kairi a scene with Ansem.

In my opinion, having moments where characters actually get development and screentime (and interaction with different characters) is more valuable and important than "logic" in who can beat who in a fight or if Character X can take on Character Y. Like I said before, if Nomura wants someone to be stronger than someone else, he will write it as such regardless of logic, so you having these high standards for Kairi doesn't make sense when Nomura made her able to kill Master Xehanort with less than 5 minutes of screentime in KH3 and a quick one-liner about "magic forest for training". You want to talk about 0 to 100, I think that's the definition of it right there and that's actually canon.
 

KeyToDestiny

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I'm just going to say this - you want proper build up for Kairi, yet there are so many other things in the series that don't have proper build up. Why is Kairi being held to this standard? Where was the build up to Axel getting a keyblade? To Aqua being part of KH1? To Xemnas being Xehanort's nobody? To Xehanort possessing Terra and actually being the apprentice that we saw in KH2? To Riku getting a keyblade? To Kairi getting a keyblade? To Donald being able to blow up Terranort? The list goes on and on with KH.

You say that if they just threw Kairi into that scene in KH3D it would be unearned and undeserved, well I agree with you there, except that Kairi deserved something before KH3 and to me that was the moment for it.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree because a lot of things haven't been explained, shown or even told in this series, yet we accept it. I don't see why Kairi being able to fight or at least hold off Xehanort for a minute is so hard to believe.

To the point I made about Axel reaching out to her - like I said it was out of desperation. I'm always looking for ways to allow characters to interact organically. Axel knew that Mickey and Riku were going to the Organization's stronghold. Axel could have been worried and reached out to Kairi for help. This could start their friendship - onscreen - instead of just being thrown together in KH3 with one line "he's changed!" We could have actually seen Axel apologize to Kairi and explain how he needs to protect Sora because Roxas is still in him. We could have seen Kairi actively decide that she's going to fight, which leads her to want to train and get better. It also allows Kairi a scene with Ansem.

In my opinion, having moments where characters actually get development and screentime (and interaction with different characters) is more valuable and important than "logic" in who can beat who in a fight or if Character X can take on Character Y. Like I said before, if Nomura wants someone to be stronger than someone else, he will write it as such regardless of logic, so you having these high standards for Kairi doesn't make sense when Nomura made her able to kill Master Xehanort with less than 5 minutes of screentime in KH3 and a quick one-liner about "magic forest for training". You want to talk about 0 to 100, I think that's the definition of it right there and that's actually canon.
Except she didn't kill Master Xehanort.
 

Cumguardian69

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•Don't quote remind scenario as proof or facts that Kairi is capable. They rewrote her character to give her bullshit hax powers that were totally unexplained (see her vs Xemnas, the discrepancy between NPC Kairi and Playable Kairi, etc).

•That had to be a replica xehanort bc the "real" Xehanort was fighting Past Sora around that time.

•Kairi doing things is unrealistic due to her character. She is written as feisty but without the true gumption to act on it (see KH1 where Sora tells her its too dangerous for her to come along lmao). Her body type is frail af (compare her posture to Aqua's. Bro Aqua has hips for days, is quite tall, and is muscular). She aint a fighter period.

•She isnt even playable in "her game" lmfaoooooo
 

Elysium

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I don't really see Kairi as a fighter either. I always thought--if they did anything with her--she'd be better as a mage type even if she still had a Keyblade, too. Someone with strong holy and healing magic. The funny thing is the only time we've ever seen the PoH's use their powers is in KH1--Kairi holding off Destiny Islands' fall and the princesses protecting the worlds by holding back a portion of the darkness from HB's Keyhole. I don't know why Nomura or whoever does the world scenarios don't utilize these powers both in the gameplay (the PoHs using powers similar to Minnie as party members) or in the story. Hypothetical examples of the latter would be Belle using her powers to help "wake up" Beast instead of Cogsworth in 2, Jasmine limiting Jafar's powers during your battle with him in 2, Kairi using her powers....any time she's been onscreen post-1. Perhaps they could have written that she used her PoH powers to give Riku back his real form instead of letting DiZ's machine explosion do it... That was always a bizarre solution to me.
 
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