• We have brought back Future of KINGDOM HEARTS as our main Kingdom Hearts section. Discuss any projects including Phase 2 developments, the rumored Disney Plus series, all TWEWY-related news, theories about the future of Kingdom Hearts, and any general topics in this section. For anything related to Kingdom Hearts Memory of Melody, please discuss it in the KINGDOM HEARTS Memory of Melody section.
  • Although unrelated to Kingdom Hearts, we are aware that there might be fans of The Last of Us on our forums. We ask that you please keep all spoilers for The Last of Us 2 spoiler-tagged. Any untagged spoilers will result in a temporary ban from the site.

Kairi should have been the star of the Kingdom Hearts franchise!



REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS

Tartarus

Villain by Necessity
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
2,700
Awards
2
  • Fairest of them All
  • Nothing's Like Before
I think the fanon idea of Kairi with Minnie and Daisy came about more because Minnie was an awesome fighter in KH2, and no other reason. I'd like to have Minnie as an actual party member in general, but alas she is female and that's, as Mariah Carey sings, A No No for Square Enix apparently!
 

SweetYetSalty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
Messages
1,297
Awards
1
Age
30
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
Kairi has Pluto as her Disney companion. They traveled to Twilight Town together and got kidnapped together in KH2. It sucks Disney refuses to put these two back together after their amazing chemistry. Pluto wasn't even in KH3!
 

kirabook

Bronze Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
1,304
Awards
0
Location
RoL
It always baffles me that they didn't include Kairi as one of the mains in DDD. It's literally a perfect set up. Yes, the test goes all wrong from Xehanort's meddling, but it was supposed to be a safe isolated test from start to finish where they would have to start from the beginning and learn everything anew.

Why the hell wouldn't Kairi be included in that? It's such a perfect set up for her to get into the grove of things at last. Still very late in the game, but better than nothing.

How does Nomura and the writing staff keep overlooking these obvious opportunities over and over and over again? I just do not get it. To me, it doesn't seem like they don't know what to do with her. It's that they didn't feel like doing anything with her.

It seemed to me that Nomura already had plenty of stuff behind the scenes he considered writing about (BbSv2 trailer), but he just dropped her completely in favor of... well, Riku.

I don't even have anything against Riku, I think his role is fine as it is. I just wish they'd put that much effort in the third part of the supposed Destiny Trio sooner. But I guess as a writer, if you don't care about a character, it's going to be obvious no matter what you say in an interview or two.
 

Eonstar890

Active member
Joined
Jun 25, 2018
Messages
166
Awards
6
Location
Florida
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5+2.5 ReMIX
  • Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue
  • Red Travels the Farthest
  • Just Short of the Mark
  • Disney Royalty
  • Put That Thing Back Where It Came From
Mickey is Riku's Disney companion even if you ignore gameplay. Those two have always been paired together since CoM all the way to KH3. And I guess to a lesser extent Aqua and Mickey
Mickey and Riku definitely have a long standing friendship but they never go on an actual journey or adventure together the way SDG do or how you suggest Kairi should. The closest thing is CoM where Mickey projects himself at Riku occasionally and then they leave together but from Days we know they don't even stick together all that long.

In KH3 they did journey together but thats so very recent I find it hard to reason it as a norm for the duo. And that journey was literally RoD -> MT -> RoD -> MT so... not exactly very adventurous lol

I can't see Kairi partnering up with Minnie or Daisy personally since Minnie has been cast as this queenly type and Daisy is her attendant, neither give way to a fighting disposition. In KH2 Minnie's fighting style was literally jump and scream "light!"

Pluto could be cute and all, but Pluto as a fighter wouldn't make sense mostly because I don't think Disney would want that.
 

Cumguardian69

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
190
Awards
0
How does Nomura and the writing staff keep overlooking these obvious opportunities over and over and over again? I just do not get it. To me, it doesn't seem like they don't know what to do with her. It's that they didn't feel like doing anything with her.
Kairi is a non character. She always has been. Her character traits are "likes Sora" and "is attracted to Sora" and "drives Sora's anger". She doesn't have any personality of her own, any agency, nothing.
 

Zettaflare

See you in Shibuya
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
10,986
Awards
2
Location
California
  • Anguis Union
  • Nothing's Like Before
Mickey and Riku definitely have a long standing friendship but they never go on an actual journey or adventure together the way SDG do or how you suggest Kairi should. The closest thing is CoM where Mickey projects himself at Riku occasionally and then they leave together but from Days we know they don't even stick together all that long.

In KH3 they did journey together but thats so very recent I find it hard to reason it as a norm for the duo. And that journey was literally RoD -> MT -> RoD -> MT so... not exactly very adventurous lol

I can't see Kairi partnering up with Minnie or Daisy personally since Minnie has been cast as this queenly type and Daisy is her attendant, neither give way to a fighting disposition. In KH2 Minnie's fighting style was literally jump and scream "light!"

Pluto could be cute and all, but Pluto as a fighter wouldn't make sense mostly because I don't think Disney would want that.
Well we know Minnie specializes in light magic so she could have been a mage like Donald. And Daisy could have fit in any final fantasy job class. If Nomura wanted it he could have made those two good companions. He probably won't now but it's was never impossible
 

Tartarus

Villain by Necessity
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
2,700
Awards
2
  • Fairest of them All
  • Nothing's Like Before
I can't see Kairi partnering up with Minnie or Daisy personally since Minnie has been cast as this queenly type and Daisy is her attendant, neither give way to a fighting disposition.
Jack Skellington doesn't have a fighting disposition considering he has no weapon, and yet it was never difficult for him to use magic just like Minnie does. I'm not disagreeing with you re: the idea of Minnie and Daisy being Kairi's party members, only the part about Minnie not being able to have a fighting aspect at all... It feels like a recurring thing with the fanbase that the idea of a party member relying on magical spells feels impossible because they're Disney characters, when so many have used magic in this series before.

But I guess it's hard to blame the fanbase for being completely lost on how to make female characters work in battle when the developers seem to have the same problem--even with their own female characters, like Namine, for instance.
 

*TwilightNight*

Bronze Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
2,021
Awards
2
Age
30
  • Keyblade Master
  • Master Defender
Let's not be too hasty now. Sora, for all the shounen protagonist he is (he was less so in KHI, imo), works with the concept of the series. The issue is the franchise has taken a downturn into nonsense after its simple premise, and now we have the current...situation.

And Kairi also doesn't have to be a main, playable character to be able to be a character. That was just the decision made for her, to be a plot device and forsake her in favor of Riku. I respect his arc, but it is very telling that even when his development peaked in KHII, and with his journey over, they still persist to push him to the forefront instead of putting that effort elsewhere.

KH has never been kind to the female characters. They all tend to have similar personalities in comparison to the more diverse ones we have with the male portion (including numbers). That's why it puzzles me that people prefer one recolor over the other. They base it on who made them cry?

On top of that, Nomura has no skill or talent with storytelling enough to figure out what to do with characters who don't fight and don't have a Keyblade. Look at the atrocity that happened to Naminè, used as fodder trophy for Riku Replica's sacrifice, a connection she abandoned after CoM except for one drawing in KHII. That choice was not made for her as a character, it was made for Riku Replica as a character, another male who Nomura favored to the point where he actually had more screen time than her. A male side character had more focus over a supposed female "main" character. That speaks for itself. Nomura's excuse is that "oh well, she was dead". No. You could've brought her back way earlier. But then Riku Replica wouldn't have his little closure and he matters more apparently.

And this isn't including everything that makes Naminè an outcast and incapable of sufficient attention -- not in a trio and can't fight.

It was the same issue with Kairi until recently, since she didn't have a means to fight until KHII, and nothing was done with her until KHIII for some reason. Why she stayed behind on the islands again is beyond my comprehension. She should have been training the second DDD happened, period.

Then Larxene, an independent woman who seems to be unimpressed with men and would be the last person of the female cast whose motivation be some penis, actually joined an Organization because of some penis. I mean, of course, what other motivation would a woman have if she's not following a male character? Nomura's mind must have combusted trying to figure that one out, since we're such a completely different species. Who out of Marluxia and Larxene also got the sap story? The male. No one's heard of Elrena again.

It's a Nomura problem (that reeks of sexism, but y'all aren't ready for that conversation), not a Kairi problem.

With all that being said, Kairi and her relationship with Sora is something I still don't connect with. That doesn't justify her treatment however.
 
Last edited:

Cumguardian69

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
190
Awards
0
Look at the atrocity that happened to Naminè

Then Larxene, an independent woman who seems to be unimpressed with men and would be the last person of the female cast whose motivation be some penis, actually joined an Organization because of some penis.
Namine was never a character, her first appearance was "perpetually sad and demure blonde Kairi with even less dialogue than the real deal" (CoM) then she got upgraded to Roxas' "friend interest" in KH2 (though only because they were explained to be LITERAL HALVES OF SORA/KAIRI). After that, she got her story completely rewritten in Days to that of some awkward 3rd wheel damsel in distress, and didn't make another genuine appearance in the series until ReMIND.

Larxene was always a sarcastic biznetch whose motivation was doublecrossing people. She got her motivation rewritten in KH3 thanks to shameless UX sequelbait plugs, but up until then she was a vile character who wouldn't hesitate to backstab any of the Org (she'd probably even try to backstab Xemnas tbh). The bit about Larxene joining the Org to hop on Marluxia's rosebud would have been cool and less "female must pine after male"y if they bothered to expand on their relationship in KHUX, but so far they still haven't managed to do that.
 

Tartarus

Villain by Necessity
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
2,700
Awards
2
  • Fairest of them All
  • Nothing's Like Before
Larxene did try to backstab Xemnas in CoM. And as cruel as she was, at least she wasn't a mindless slave like the majority of the Organization.
 

SuperNova

Active member
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
162
Awards
0
Age
26
Location
The local pub
The treatment of female characters in this series is one of its most prevalent issues, and one of if not its biggest weak points overall. I am happy that Kairi is getting the spotlight that she sorely needed, but knowing that she is angry at Xehanort mainly for denying her the power to protect Sora, and hurting Sora in turn, still makes me upset that her main focus is STILL on her relationship with the MC.
 

kirabook

Bronze Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
1,304
Awards
0
Location
RoL
Thing is, ReMind has set up a perfect opportunity to give Namine a roll again. I have never minded that Namine can't fight and isn't an action girl. Imo, you don't need to fight to be relevant. Namine, to me, fulfills a similar role as Yen Sid, Fairy Godmother, and other oracle like characters.

Namine, the one with power of Sora's memories, should certainly be leading the effort here to find Sora. Or at least, to help others find Sora by giving advice, clues, or "using others" to do so (by that I mean, going through say, Ven or Roxas to see if she can connect to Sora somehow, they're the closest to him after all since they're kinda triplets)

It still falls into the "doing something for a guy" narrative people have an issue with, but it can't be avoided. More than half of the main characters are dudes, and Sora, the main character who they're searching for, is a dude.

I don't think it's as simple as "Nomura is a sexist and that's that." I'm sure he has a bias floating around in that head of his that he's unaware of, but I don't think it's purposeful. He's not actively thinking "Girls can't do this. Only Riku." It's probably more like, "Well, Riku is cooler though, and the fans really like him and so do I. So I'll use him." And therein lies the problem.

Instead of following through with plot threads that make sense, Nomura chooses his personal favorites/fan favorites. This has benefited some characters where I'm sure they'd be ignored otherwise (Aqua, for example), but has definitely hurt many many more.
 

Cumguardian69

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
190
Awards
0
IMO, It's best they start killing off the bloated cast. Actually merge Namine and Kairi now, because there's no reason why Kairi and blonde quiet Kairi should exist in the same world (I'm not anti-Nobody like DiZ was, but come on). Give Kairi Namine's magic powers over Sora and retcon them as PoH powers that she discovers as part of her keyblade training, and have her lead the charge in finding Sora (because we all know Sora holds Kairi to be most precious, why wouldn't she him as well?)

Have Riku ship her off to LoD so she can get training from Master Aqua, teach her to stop wielding in the Default Sora stance, ween her off and send her into the RoD to search for clues.

Like dude.
 

SweetYetSalty

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
Messages
1,297
Awards
1
Age
30
  • You've Got A Friend In Me
Larxene did try to backstab Xemnas in CoM. And as cruel as she was, at least she wasn't a mindless slave like the majority of the Organization.
Is she really? I like Larxene, but honestly her character has little to no depth beyond being the evil female archtype. She's exactly the same as when she debuted in CoM. To some that might not be a bad thing, but the other Organization members have all changed in some ways, or at least trying to...or whatever it is Aeleus and Dilan have become, I wouldn't call those two better off. Larxene lacks a character arc or growth of any kind, I find her one of the least developed Organization members, regardless how entertaining she can be. There has to be more to her then clever insults that she can't back up. I'm hoping with Elrena, she'll get some growth.
 

*TwilightNight*

Bronze Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
2,021
Awards
2
Age
30
  • Keyblade Master
  • Master Defender
Namine was never a character, her first appearance was "perpetually sad and demure blonde Kairi with even less dialogue than the real deal" (CoM) then she got upgraded to Roxas' "friend interest" in KH2 (though only because they were explained to be LITERAL HALVES OF SORA/KAIRI). After that, she got her story completely rewritten in Days to that of some awkward 3rd wheel damsel in distress, and didn't make another genuine appearance in the series until ReMIND.

Larxene was always a sarcastic biznetch whose motivation was doublecrossing people. She got her motivation rewritten in KH3 thanks to shameless UX sequelbait plugs, but up until then she was a vile character who wouldn't hesitate to backstab any of the Org (she'd probably even try to backstab Xemnas tbh). The bit about Larxene joining the Org to hop on Marluxia's rosebud would have been cool and less "female must pine after male"y if they bothered to expand on their relationship in KHUX, but so far they still haven't managed to do that.
IMO, It's best they start killing off the bloated cast. Actually merge Namine and Kairi now, because there's no reason why Kairi and blonde quiet Kairi should exist in the same world (I'm not anti-Nobody like DiZ was, but come on). Give Kairi Namine's magic powers over Sora and retcon them as PoH powers that she discovers as part of her keyblade training, and have her lead the charge in finding Sora (because we all know Sora holds Kairi to be most precious, why wouldn't she him as well?)

Have Riku ship her off to LoD so she can get training from Master Aqua, teach her to stop wielding in the Default Sora stance, ween her off and send her into the RoD to search for clues.

Like dude.
Naminè is more than what you're claiming, first of all. She started out as a sad and demure girl with a selfish, not so secretive desire to have what Kairi has in Sora. Or to have a friend. She was just forced to doing it the wrong way. With Sora's forgiveness and kindness to what she did, she gained the backbone she needed and refused to harm him any longer. And that growth of a spine continued onwards into KHII where she hacked into Diz's data to help Roxas, approached Roxas in the most confident head bitch in charge way, busted Kairi out of jail, and raised up fists along with Kairi towards Saïx. So yes, she is a character. A character who developed and visibly changed from being a doormat to standing up for herself without being playable or hijacking an entire game to herself. Which is the best she can have I suppose. In fact, the whole shtick with CoM was to invert the damsel in distress trope. She's just underused, mistreated, and recently got utilized as a prop for a male character that she forgot existed after CoM.

Roxas and Naminè are their own people and whatever relationship or bond they built due to their similar fates are their own. They have nothing to do with Sora's and Kairi's relationship. They don't even share the same personality or reasons for meeting. Stop using old 2000s arguments to dismiss their connection, it doesn't hold.

As Kira here puts it -

Killing people, maybe. But "merging"? Have you not played the last 3ish KH games where they made clear everyone is their own person and it's morally wrong to rob people of their body/hearts/and agency?
Larxene is a sarcastic biznetch, yes, and I adore her for it. People can dislike how she doesn't have enough depth all they want, but that doesn't change the fact that she's the only female out of KH who's entertaining and has an actual different personality than the samey scraps we get from Kairi/Xion/Aqua/Naminè/Strelitzia, etc. And she doesn't deserve being presented as having no other reason to join a group other than Marluxia...whose sister is the definition of the non-character archetype that you tried to use on one that isn't. She gets a few scenes, and then gets offed just to give Lauriam his man angst. Like they did with Kairi in KHIII. At least we got a murder mystery out of it, I guess.


Thing is, ReMind has set up a perfect opportunity to give Namine a roll again. I have never minded that Namine can't fight and isn't an action girl. Imo, you don't need to fight to be relevant. Namine, to me, fulfills a similar role as Yen Sid, Fairy Godmother, and other oracle like characters.

Namine, the one with power of Sora's memories, should certainly be leading the effort here to find Sora. Or at least, to help others find Sora by giving advice, clues, or "using others" to do so (by that I mean, going through say, Ven or Roxas to see if she can connect to Sora somehow, they're the closest to him after all since they're kinda triplets)

It still falls into the "doing something for a guy" narrative people have an issue with, but it can't be avoided. More than half of the main characters are dudes, and Sora, the main character who they're searching for, is a dude.

I don't think it's as simple as "Nomura is a sexist and that's that." I'm sure he has a bias floating around in that head of his that he's unaware of, but I don't think it's purposeful. He's not actively thinking "Girls can't do this. Only Riku." It's probably more like, "Well, Riku is cooler though, and the fans really like him and so do I. So I'll use him." And therein lies the problem.

Instead of following through with plot threads that make sense, Nomura chooses his personal favorites/fan favorites. This has benefited some characters where I'm sure they'd be ignored otherwise (Aqua, for example), but has definitely hurt many many more.
sex·ism
/ˈsekˌsizəm/
noun
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.


That doesn't make it any less sexist. Whether he's aware of it or not, his choices in using female characters as props to male characters to either have as a trophy or to give them angst is putting them in a gender role he believes is appropriate for them. Strelitzia and Kairi both got fridged. It's either that or you're a plot device/deus ex machina. If you don't fight or have a Keyblade you get no focus (so yes, in KH, Naminé does need to fight to be relevant because she's obviously getting nothing by not doing so, like Kairi once before her). When an interview question asked about Aqua, he said female characters were difficult to write/understand when the reality is there is no difference between them and male characters. And while yes, he has a very serious boner for Riku and his clone (now anyway), his choices in the narrative leads me to think he's the typical traditional middle aged Japanese man with outdated views on women who finally got called out on it. Even Kairi's spunky, shade throwing, energetic disposition changed into being more meek like Naminè in KHIII when he has ten male characters and more with various different personalities, attitudes, and traits. Probably due to the Japanese finding soft, "cutesy" girls endearing. You see it in anime too.

If Aqua wasn't popular, he wouldn't have given her what she obtained out of it.

If fans weren't outraged at Kairi's treatment, she more than likely wouldn't even have this game.

Of course, that doesn't mean he can't change. He's been getting the hang of the more modernized woman. But it took backlash.
 
Last edited:

Foxycian

Active member
Joined
Aug 1, 2016
Messages
578
Awards
0
Well she (kairi) is the most important female character in kingdom hearts (plot wise) cause she is princess of heart, all she needs is more screen time to keep up with the other Girls and other characters in general.
 

Swing

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Messages
135
Awards
0
Kairi is a non character. She always has been. Her character traits are "likes Sora" and "is attracted to Sora" and "drives Sora's anger". She doesn't have any personality of her own, any agency, nothing.
And that is sadly the truth. You are right about her. She is technically not a character, not now, we have to wait until MoM comes out, maybe this game will redeem her in some parts, but since the first KH game, I can not really see Kairi her own character. Like I said it before, she is just a price for Sora. The most memorable part of her is actually her big feet, which is the reason I use them as my avatar. The sad thing about her is, that in concept, she sounds like a very interesting character, but in execution, she is one of the most poorly handled female leads I have ever seen in a story.
 
Top