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Just realised Chain of Memories plot did not age well thanks to future games in the series



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Vulpes XIII

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( Just want to clarify I know it’s dramatic irony and I’m not trying to say it’s bad just ironic. The thread title I wanted to talk about the irony of the situation, but given I used the word ironic a lot I decide to write did not age well thinking it would imply the same thing given what I wrote in the actual message. I realise now that I picked the wrong phrasing and it comes across as if I’m trying to say something else, unfortunately I can’t change the thread title.)

So I was replaying through Re Chain of Memories and while listening to the dialogue I just realised how games like Union X have really changed the way I look at this plot here are some things I realised.

(I know Marluxia and Larxene don’t have their memories and don’t know they can regrow hearts in this game but the plot and dialogue is still extremely ironic now when you look back on it.)

The first one can be applied to any game where Nobodies appear which is the retcon from Dream Drop Distance about Nobodies can regrow hearts.

Nobodies can recall there past lives which Marluxia and Larxene can’t and in Kingdom hearts 358/2 days Marluxia says to Roxas “ The Keyblade power how I have longed to make it my own” and the reason they need Sora to overthrow the Organization is because they apparently need the power of a Keyblade wielder, I know they don’t have memories but there desire for the Keyblade‘s power is just ironic now.

Lauriam is most likely going to hunt down Ventus now that he‘s got his memories back and try and get revenge, again it kind of ironic when you realise the place Marluxia was in charge of is where Ventus was sleeping the whole time.

Marluxia has no memories but is in charge of a castle which apparently erases and messes with people memories. ( I know this was Naminé who messed with Sora memories not the castle but it’s still kind of funny to think about)

Every time Larxene says something to Sora about his memories is just ironic now because of how easily it could apply to her. Since Nobodies can grow hearts and she going on about how his true memories ” must be engraved somewhere deep inside his heart” and “ release the memories from within your heart”. Considering they can’t remember anything maybe they should try taking there own advice instead of tormenting Sora”. Also Lauriam and Elrena where trying to find Strelitzia in Union X and it’s probably what their goal will be when they come back, however its ironic and kind of sad when Larxene says how can something be important to you if you couldn’t remember it in the first place.

Naminé and Strelitzia are both quiet and shy girls who don’t interact with anyone outside of a few people and mostly keep to themselves also both wear white dresses and although one knows Lauriam and Elrena and the other know Marluxia and Larxene they technically know the same people. Also although Marluxia doesn’t remember Strelitzia he is technically holding a girl who acts very similar to his sister hostage and is tormenting her. Also if you think about it Marluxia doesn’t want Naminé out of any of the Organization sight in case she escapes as it would ruin his plan and I know that it’s not connected in any way but Lauriam probably wishes he never let Strelitzia out of his sight as maybe she might of not been killed.

Also Axel’s job is to deal with anyone who tries to betray the Organization, however he will eventually do that himself. Honestly I am a bit disappointed this irony wasn’t addressed in KH3 it would of been kind of funny if Marluxia or Larxene pointed that out to Axel.

Anyway maybe I’m the only one who thinks all this stuff is ironic and made the plot not age well, it just a random thought I had anyway I found it kinda interesting thought I share it, but I’m curious has anyone noticed stuff like this in other games with any other characters or situations?
 
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Face My Fears

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I don't really think information like this makes the "plot not age well". It's like saying that knowing Darth Vader is Luke's father messes up Star Wars Episode IV or that Tom Riddle's diary was a Horcrux in Harry Potter.

If anything, those details add to the replay value of the game (and makes me wonder if Nomura had small/potential plans as early as KHCoM for certain plot elements). For starters, it was sort of hinted to that nobodies could regrow hearts, but it was constantly dismissed, so at least it wasn't a full on retcon, rather a lie being uncovered (since it seemed like Xemnas started that lie). Lauriam being an ancient keyblade wielder, then saying that he longed for the keyblade could be seen as his own subconscious searching for the keyblade. Marluxia being placed as head of Castle Oblivion (where Ven was hidden) now seems even more relevant since Xemnas was obsessed with finding the Chamber of Waking. Xemnas was aware it was in Castle Oblivion, but didn't know what it contained, possibly believing it had something to do with Lauriam/Quadratum. Axel being so highly regarded to remove any traitors is enhanced by future games, because now we understand why he (and Saix) got there and why Axel did his job so well.

I would have said it made the plot not age well if things didn't make sense (even a little), but somehow Nomura managed to make things line up. I don't know if that was intentional or not - because just look at Xigbar's KH2 journal entry and compare it to what we know post-KH3. If it wasn't intentional, Nomura has amazing luck that everything just seems to work in his favour - even the littlest of details.
 

Vulpes XIII

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I don't really think information like this makes the "plot not age well". It's like saying that knowing Darth Vader is Luke's father messes up Star Wars Episode IV or that Tom Riddle's diary was a Horcrux in Harry Potter.

If anything, those details add to the replay value of the game (and makes me wonder if Nomura had small/potential plans as early as KHCoM for certain plot elements). For starters, it was sort of hinted to that nobodies could regrow hearts, but it was constantly dismissed, so at least it wasn't a full on retcon, rather a lie being uncovered (since it seemed like Xemnas started that lie). Lauriam being an ancient keyblade wielder, then saying that he longed for the keyblade could be seen as his own subconscious searching for the keyblade. Marluxia being placed as head of Castle Oblivion (where Ven was hidden) now seems even more relevant since Xemnas was obsessed with finding the Chamber of Waking. Xemnas was aware it was in Castle Oblivion, but didn't know what it contained, possibly believing it had something to do with Lauriam/Quadratum. Axel being so highly regarded to remove any traitors is enhanced by future games, because now we understand why he (and Saix) got there and why Axel did his job so well.

I would have said it made the plot not age well if things didn't make sense (even a little), but somehow Nomura managed to make things line up. I don't know if that was intentional or not - because just look at Xigbar's KH2 journal entry and compare it to what we know post-KH3. If it wasn't intentional, Nomura has amazing luck that everything just seems to work in his favour - even the littlest of details.
I agree with everything you said here, when I said the plot didn’t age well I wasn’t actually trying to say it’s bad, I was originally going to name the thread just realised future games made Chain of Memories plot ironic , but I figured I used the word ironic a bit too much and thought that given what I wrote it should probably get the same point across. I guess I choose the wrong phrasing should of just stuck with the word ironic I guess ( I’m guessing the title is just going to be a silly mistake on my part because I don’t think I can change it looks like all I can do is laugh at my mistake :)

Dramatic irony makes something better, not worse.
I’m not trying to say it made it worse in fact I enjoy the dramatic irony I think it’s funny, as I said above I think I should of phrased it better but the past is in the past all I can do is laugh it off :)
 

Antifa Lockhart

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Quite the opposite. The new plot points create dramatic irony on purpose. That's an intentional retcon. Like, you're noticing it because it was meant to be noticed.
Lauriam is most likely going to hunt down Ventus now that he‘s got his memories back and try and get revenge, again it kind of ironic when you realise the place Marluxia was in charge of is where Ventus was sleeping the whole time.
I'm not sure I agree. Lauriam knows that Ventus wasn't fully behind what happened and the New Union Leaders have been really open and honest about communication so far. Unless Marluxia's memory is only partially back, but even so, revenge seems a little shallow for him.
 

Vulpes XIII

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Quite the opposite. The new plot points create dramatic irony on purpose. That's an intentional retcon. Like, you're noticing it because it was meant to be noticed.

I'm not sure I agree. Lauriam knows that Ventus wasn't fully behind what happened and the New Union Leaders have been really open and honest about communication so far. Unless Marluxia's memory is only partially back, but even so, revenge seems a little shallow for him.

I agree it does create dramatic irony however I don’t think it’s was on purpose well at least not at first. Don’t know why but I get the impression that Nomura forgets some of the plot points from very early games and he just somehow is very lucky plot wise which I believe happened here, as I think he probably forgot about it, remembered it a lot later and realised he could use it somehow. Although the part about Marluxia guardian with the giant scythe that has some similarities to Strelitzia I think that the only thing he’s doing on purpose that he had planned from the beginning.

The entire reason why I believe Lauriam will still want revenge is because of a some quotes from his character file which I believe are technically secondary cannon can’t remember where I heard that from though. Anyway the quotes are:

” My heart and memories have returned” and then he later goes on to say “ Because now my heart is filled with nothing but dark emotions. Sorrow, pain, hatred“ although he admits he can feel stuff like love too.

Plus he also says “ I don’t understand anything, the one thing I know is the name of a small flower”.
 

Face My Fears

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I agree with everything you said here, when I said the plot didn’t age well I wasn’t actually trying to say it’s bad, I was originally going to name the thread just realised future games made Chain of Memories plot ironic , but I figured I used the word ironic a bit too much and thought that given what I wrote it should probably get the same point across. I guess I choose the wrong phrasing should of just stuck with the word ironic I guess ( I’m guessing the title is just going to be a silly mistake on my part because I don’t think I can change it looks like all I can do is laugh at my mistake :)


I’m not trying to say it made it worse in fact I enjoy the dramatic irony I think it’s funny, as I said above I think I should of phrased it better but the past is in the past all I can do is laugh it off :)
It's fine, I know you didn't mean that CoM was bad. You explained yourself well in the body of the thread.

You did bring up some stuff that I forgot about, like Marluxia wanting the keyblade's power, that was a nice reminder.
 

pastel.goblin

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I've never really gotten the "Nobodies actually having hearts is a retcon" thing. Sure, the characters in the story tell you Nobodies have no hearts, but it's painfully obvious right from CoM that it's not the case, and Days as a whole is basically smacking you over the head with it and asking you to question if that's actually true. When the reveal happens in DDD I wasn't mad about a retcon ruining past games, it was more "Figured as much, what a manipulative bastard you are Xehanort."
 

Vulpes XIII

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I've never really gotten the "Nobodies actually having hearts is a retcon" thing. Sure, the characters in the story tell you Nobodies have no hearts, but it's painfully obvious right from CoM that it's not the case, and Days as a whole is basically smacking you over the head with it and asking you to question if that's actually true. When the reveal happens in DDD I wasn't mad about a retcon ruining past games, it was more "Figured as much, what a manipulative bastard you are Xehanort."


Honestly the only reason I call it a retcon is simply because I’ve seen and heard it being called that so many times it got to a point where I automatically refer to it as that, personally I thought it made a lot of sense given what we seen in previous games. I’m guessing it‘s because the characters did come out and actually say it several times throughout the games is why people might think Nomura contradicted himself and just changed something that was canon just so he could add some shock value whether that is true or not I don’t know. I really don’t mind whether it is officially a retcon or not, doesn’t affect my enjoyment of the game either way.
 

pastel.goblin

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Honestly the only reason I call it a retcon is simply because I’ve seen and heard it being called that so many times it got to a point where I automatically refer to it as that, personally I thought it made a lot of sense given what we seen in previous games. I’m guessing it‘s because the characters did come out and actually say it several times throughout the games is why people might think Nomura contradicted himself and just changed something that was canon just so he could add some shock value whether that is true or not I don’t know. I really don’t mind whether it is officially a retcon or not, doesn’t affect my enjoyment of the game either way.
No worries~ I've come across some people who were legit mad about it on other places like reddit, and it's just always baffled me.
 

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I think this enhances what CoM already was, kind of like how Ansem and Xehanort were revealed to be different people, and that this Xehanort was actually in Terra's stolen body. I was actually sour at first about the Ansem from KH1 not actually being Ansem, but I loved the twist from BBS enough that I think it was worth it.

The new revelations about Elrena and Lauriam just seem like good additions to the lore and backstory. Sure they didn't need backstories, but I'm glad they got fleshed out some more.
 

Sean Wheeler

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Why don't Marluxia and Larxene remember? Is it a plot point in Kingdom Hearts X which I haven't played because the HD collection has a Back Cover movie and I only have a flip phone that's not compatible with apps?
 

Dark Rot

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Chain feels out of place because they never figured out something interesting to do with Namine and Marluxia. A lot of the intrigue came from wondering who these people were and why they were so powerful. We sort of have answers, but I wish we hadn't. Castle Oblivion was cheapened, then deleted. The replica plot device was brought back in the worst way. I still like the story of Chain of Memories, but it was a product of its time, the only elements that work in relation to other games are setting up KH2 and nostalgic reflections on KH1.
 
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