Isa's loyalty

[Zettaflare]

Hey guys, I was wondering if you could help me figure out something in regards to saix/Isa. I'm a bit confused on whether or not he joined Xehanort of his own free will or if he was being controlled due to the xehanortification. When they faced each other in the climax on the game Isa had a look on his face that gave the impression he was ashamed at what he was doing, implying that he is being controlled. I could be wrong, and that face could be his usual stoic expression. Please tell me your guy's opinions, as Isa's loyalty could play a huge factor for Lea's subplot in kh3.

 

[Reagan Rayden]

The only reason he followed Xemnas in the first place was because Xemnas lied about being able to get back Saix's heart. I doubt he's willingly going through Xehanort's current plan. When he struck Lea he had this sadness in his eyes. His look can be interpreted in many ways and may not prove he's being controlled or that he's following Xemnas still, but I highly doubt he would have a good reason to still follow Xemnas' orders now that he has his original body which was all he wanted from the Organization.

I doubt he has a yearning to open Kingdom Hearts and cause the ending of the worlds.

 

[Taochan]

I never once got the impression that Saix felt any shame for what he was doing. His face doesn't emote at all in the scene.

 

[Memory Master]

I think Isa/Saix is sticking with Xehanort right now because he is honestly conflicted inside. He feels some resentment over Lea choosing his friendship with Roxas and Xion over his friendship with him. His plans to overthrow Xemnas went out the window too. So I think right now he feels conflicted and that makes manipulating him easier for Xehanort. There is probably more to Isa/Saix's thoughts/goals than what we're being told right now. We still don't know why he and Lea wanted to overthrow Xemnas to begin with, or how he got his X shaped scars. But I think his, as Isa/Saix views it, betrayal by Lea is a factor in all of this.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I never once got the impression that Saix felt any shame for what he was doing. His face doesn't emote at all in the scene.

Exactly, it's emotionless, almost like a robot. Saix' actions in Kingdom Hearts 2 (and the later half of Days) speak other things though as he acts like a total jerkass and is willingly conspiring with Xemnas.

Furthermore, there are several scenes where Xemnas is in the throne room speaking about internal Organisation matters and the only members present are Xigbar and Saix.

Axel noticed already in Days that something in Saix had deeply changed, and him having Xehanort-eyes already the first time you see him in Days gives quite a vibe that he was partly "norted" very early on.


Then there's this snippet:

—By the way, Braig’s dealings with Master Xehanort in Birth by Sleep make sense, he was to become a vessel.
Nomura: There is a certain reason for Braig to proudly exclaim, “As for me, I’m already half Xehanort.” Isa (Saix) is included too. I think you’ll understand the details about their circumstances eventually.

It implies that Braig's and Isa's circumstances surrounding "the Nort incident" are similar if not the same.

It is true that Saix and Axel originally planned to betray Xemnas because they didn't trust them, but no one knows how long Saix really cared for that plan and at which point he only acted while already being in league with Xemnas.
It is presented to us in Days that Saix ordered Axel to eliminate Zexion because he was an obstacle to Saix' ascent, but Saix is already second-in-command and giving out missions before the Castle Oblivion incident, so it might be possible that Saix' order to Axel was in fact just passed down from Xemnas to get rid of already known "failed vessels" at Castle Oblivion, camouflaged by Saix to look as if he was still in league with Axel's and his plan.

 

[Zettaflare]

I kind of disagree on some level in regards to isa's facial expression. If you look closely you can see some sort of emotion in isa's eyes. Whether or not that's regret, shame or some other emotion is left up to the viewer. I get the impression that isa is trying to resist xehanort's influence internally, but obviously neither mine nor your opinion is fact. We probably wont know the full truth until kh3

 

[Taochan]

I think you're reading into the scene a bit much and interpreting it the way you want. All Saix is doing is slightly tilting his head forward.

Basing anything on this scene about where Saix's loyalties lie is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I really doubt Isa has been fighting the bit of Xehanort within him. The fact that he's had Xehanort characteristics since probably before Days means he's been living with a piece of Xehanort in him for quite some time. He's never seemed to want to fight against it then, and at least in KH2 he seemed perfectly fine to comply with Xemnas' plans.

There hasn't been a hint of struggle from him. If there were he'd be more like Apprentice Xehanort who WAS in a metaphorical tug-o-war in Terra's heart.

 

[Roxie1563]

As much I dislike Saix, I think he's truly trying to fight back. I mean, he was defeated and should have went back to his original body, yet we see him still in his orgainization body in D.D.D.

Like one person said, we won't know until Kingdom Hearts 3 is out and played.

 

[Taochan]

As much I dislike Saix, I think he's truly trying to fight back. I mean, he was defeated and should have went back to his original body, yet we see him still in his orgainization body in D.D.D.

Like one person said, we won't know until Kingdom Hearts 3 is out and played.

He basically went:

Somebody (Isa) to Nobody (Saix) to Somebody with Xehanort's heart (still called Saix according to 3D's character section). So he technically is in his original body, it's just Xehanorted up.

 

[Reagan Rayden]

If Lea never mentioned he was Lea you might think he was Axel. Isa is in the same situation.

Lea even says Isa's name.

The cloak he wears is just to protect his body from the corridors of darkness that the Organization commonly use. It's more of a utility thing than a membership statement to the Organization.


Considering what Saix wanted most in his life (his previous friendship with Lea) I think he would fight back against Xehanort's hold on him.

 

[Roxie1563]

He basically went:

Somebody (Isa) to Nobody (Saix) to Somebody with Xehanort's heart (still called Saix according to 3D's character section). So he technically is in his original body, it's just Xehanorted up.

I see.. So, Isa's back but he just is Xehanorted up.

@Regan: I agree about what you said about Isa's frienship with Lea. He may be fighting it as we speak; just we don't see it very well.

And I so would wear that Black Cloak!

 

[Zero Dozer]

Exactly, it's emotionless, almost like a robot. Saix' actions in Kingdom Hearts 2 (and the later half of Days) speak other things though as he acts like a total jerkass and is willingly conspiring with Xemnas.

Furthermore, there are several scenes where Xemnas is in the throne room speaking about internal Organisation matters and the only members present are Xigbar and Saix.

Axel noticed already in Days that something in Saix had deeply changed, and him having Xehanort-eyes already the first time you see him in Days gives quite a vibe that he was partly "norted" very early on.


Then there's this snippet:


It implies that Braig's and Isa's circumstances surrounding "the Nort incident" are similar if not the same.

It is true that Saix and Axel originally planned to betray Xemnas because they didn't trust them, but no one knows how long Saix really cared for that plan and at which point he only acted while already being in league with Xemnas.
It is presented to us in Days that Saix ordered Axel to eliminate Zexion because he was an obstacle to Saix' ascent, but Saix is already second-in-command and giving out missions before the Castle Oblivion incident, so it might be possible that Saix' order to Axel was in fact just passed down from Xemnas to get rid of already known "failed vessels" at Castle Oblivion, camouflaged by Saix to look as if he was still in league with Axel's and his plan.

Agreed. I mean, Isa always has a trick up his sleeve. Also, I think we would need the BbS V2 to understand the full changes on Isa's mind. As well as Isa and Lea's transformation into Nobodies.

 

[Roxie1563]

Agreed. I mean, Isa always has a trick up his sleeve. Also, I think we would need the BbS V2 to understand the full changes on Isa's mind. As well as Isa and Lea's transformation into Nobodies.

Hm, seems Isa/Saix always has back up plans like Xehanort's only difference is that Xehanort planned this for years, so I'm not sure the total plan of Isa.

I think you're right on BBS V2.. Man, how neat would it be if it had came out as planned.. We would have found so much thing going on after the events of Final Episode.

 

[flurryflames]

It implies that Braig's and Isa's circumstances surrounding "the Nort incident" are similar if not the same.

It is true that Saix and Axel originally planned to betray Xemnas because they didn't trust them, but no one knows how long Saix really cared for that plan and at which point he only acted while already being in league with Xemnas.
It is presented to us in Days that Saix ordered Axel to eliminate Zexion because he was an obstacle to Saix' ascent, but Saix is already second-in-command and giving out missions before the Castle Oblivion incident, so it might be possible that Saix' order to Axel was in fact just passed down from Xemnas to get rid of already known "failed vessels" at Castle Oblivion, camouflaged by Saix to look as if he was still in league with Axel's and his plan.

Very true. Xemnas wanted to get rid of either the suspects and some fo the weakest links. Either the orders came from Xenmas or not, Saix may have thought that Zexion was a threat considering he is an master illusionist and schemer, and couldn't chance him to be alive. He didn't trust him and knew that Axel was more capable of getting the job done so he sent him out to get rid of the traitors.

If Lea never mentioned he was Lea you might think he was Axel. Isa is in the same situation.

Lea even says Isa's name.

The cloak he wears is just to protect his body from the corridors of darkness that the Organization commonly use. It's more of a utility thing than a membership statement to the Organization.


Considering what Saix wanted most in his life (his previous friendship with Lea) I think he would fight back against Xehanort's hold on him.

Probably not since MX doesn't wear the cloak, yet he can go past the corridors with no side effects. Also remember Namine can go into the corridors of darkness as well. The cloak may be used to protect their body from darkness, but if that is the case then how come the somebodies Ienzo, Elaeus, Even and Dilan are wearing their orignal clothes they wore in BBS? I think that in a way Lea may be conflicted with the transformation of being Axel who had always wore the cloak. At first he thought he was still Axel until he saw he was missing the tattoos. After that he accepted he was Lea again. In that way he still accepts that part of him as Axel. Either the cloak is for protection or not, or cover up he still wears it. It wouldn't bother me if they kept him wearing it the whole time.

I am sure Isa would fight back if Lea still believed in him. Lea didn't want to fight him once he he saw him again. There are probably small hints of Isa still left in Saix, but most of it may be gone if Lea fails to save him. Lea will find some way to save Isa (and find the other members and friends,) because that was his best friend one time. History is hard to overcome and that is what he wanted to begin with, to have friends. He hang onto his memories and seems to treasure them even when he was younger. So that may conflict and play with his mind since Axel has his memories as well. Yes the wild card. Whatever the case Lea needed more power, but I don't think he rejects the chakams either just because he can summon a keyblade. However, considering having no tattoos makes me wonder if they by any chance go in another direction with another character that isn't in the game yet. We have a bunch of Xeohanort clones either way.

 

[Zettaflare]

You know, looking back, i never was a huge saix fan. I thought he was a despicable character in kh2 and days, especially considering how badly he treated xion, axel, and roxas. But after seeing him in bbs as isa, i kinda grew to like him. He wasnt half bad with a heart. It kind of made me sad seeing him in kh ddd with his free will stolen. I hope lea saves him in kh ddd.

 

[Nayru's Love]

He didn't become a total ass as a result of losing his heart, rather it was most likely the Xehanortification process. He became a successful Xehanort because of his loyalty, actually. If Xemnas had that much control over the Organization's free will, then that would eliminate the possibility of traitors within the Organization.

 

[flurryflames]

He didn't become a total ass as a result of losing his heart, rather it was most likely the Xehanortification process. He became a successful Xehanort because of his loyalty, actually. If Xemnas had that much control over the Organization's free will, then that would eliminate the possibility of traitors within the Organization.

That is the interesting thing about their creation. He wanted nobodies who can think for themselves in a way with the discretion that he wanted to keep his true plan under wraps. He didn't want robots. it is ironic that the whole thing got changed around on Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance.

 

[Nayru's Love]

Well, it's more like Xemnas wanted lapdogs out of the Organization. Those who are most loyal to him are the ones that are most vulnerable to losing themselves and becoming another Xehanort, or "Another X." I like to think of it as an advanced version of the Heartless transformation. Instead of darkness controlling you, it's Xehanort's heart.

 

[Zettaflare]

With all of the revelations in kh ddd, it makes you wonder how exactly isa got his scar? Maybe xehanort gave it to him before he became a nobody.