Isa Is Basically Riku



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kirabook

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Maybe a realization already realized to most people, but yesterday I was watching a blind Birth by Sleep walkthrough and Lea and Isa appeared. It suddenly occurred to me today, how much Isa resembles Riku in a way.

Clearly Isa and Axel were best friends. Childhood friends... I'm uncertain of, but they definitely appear close and have known each other for a long time. Resembles Sora and Riku on their time on the islands.

Isa complains about Lea constantly picking up stray puppies and 'making friends' on the fly. It's like how Maleficent was able to convince Riku that Sora had found new best friends and didn't care about him and Kairi anymore (when obviously that wasn't the case, but jealousy still reared an ugly head)

Then comes 358/2 Days and Saix seems even more upset and jealous that Axel has new friends and values them over his and Axel's old friendship.

Isa/Saix is basically like a Riku who never got un-possessed by Ansem Seeker of Darkness.

Am I reading too much into it? Or is it intentional? Eh.
 

Noel

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I have a good feeling that Isa and Riku are going to have a showdown in KH3 while someones is going to name the parallels that they have. Once the battle is over Isa is going to regret his actions and maybe get revived with Deus Ex Machina

Story telling at its finest.
 

catcake

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We'll see, I'm still not really sure if Isa is just jealous and in a bad place and stuff or... just kind of an ass. We haven't seen much yet, so hard to say. I personally don't really care but I think we might see more interaction between him and Lea in KH3.
 

kirabook

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I mean, in Days, he kept lamenting "You prefer THEM over OUR friendship???" "Which matters more to you?" "Do you want a puppet thing or a REAL friend?"

That seems like jealousy to me.

I'm not the biggest fan of Lea/Axel or Isa/Saix, just an interesting topic.
 

catcake

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I mean, in Days, he kept lamenting "You prefer THEM over OUR friendship???" "Which matters more to you?" "Do you want a puppet thing or a REAL friend?"

That seems like jealousy to me.

I'm not the biggest fan of Lea/Axel or Isa/Saix, just an interesting topic.
Yeah, could be. I haven't touched Days in years so I can't really remember anything from there. He just always seemed like he doesn't care much about anyone in KH2.
 

kirabook

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By the time KH2 comes around, Axel has basically already 'betrayed' Saix and chose other friendships over him. I totally understand by KH2, Saix doesn't care for Axel and is extremely bitter.

After Axel dies, Saix almost goes on a full nasty rant about him.
 

VoidGear.

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I'm not sure if I want a Riku-Isa-showdown where Riku, after he wins, goes
"I know how you're feeling. Being forgotten for someone else. Replaced. But I was wrong." yadda yadda.
I mean the idea isn't necessarily bad but ugh. Hard to say.
 

Griewer

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Riku's jealousy over Sora making new friends was mostly because he spent quite a bit of time with Maleficent who used this time to implant dark thoughts in Riku's heart. Once darkness took root in his heart, he was basically a toy for Maleficent and Ansem.

We don't know much about Isa on the other hand. We know that Saix used Axel to take care of the higher ranking members of the organization in CO so that they could become more prominent members though and that shows a little bit about his personality. Saix isn't really a friend to Axel, I'd say he sees Axel as a useful tool which he knows how to use to get what he wants.

Yeah both Isa and Riku seem to be the more serious members of their own group of friends, but that's about it I guess.

Also I'm pretty sure that if Isa will have a showdown it will be against Lea and not Riku. Riku will probably have his millionth showdown against Ansem-Xehanort and another one maybe against Young Xehanort. We'll have to see.
 

DarkosOverlord

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What Griewer said.
I can see the parallel, but I think we need to wait on KH III and learn what Isa and Lea's deal was about.
Also you can kinda see how more depth about Saix/Isa was added later, so more than a wanted parallel I can also see just a "let's recycle some ideas for this next grumpy character"
 

kirabook

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Riku's jealousy over Sora making new friends was mostly because he spent quite a bit of time with Maleficent who used this time to implant dark thoughts in Riku's heart. Once darkness took root in his heart, he was basically a toy for Maleficent and Ansem.
Maleficent was able to use those feelings to control him. It was pretty clear when Sora started going on about their adventure and wanting him to come along, he left because of that jealousy. Then we see Maleficent driving those jealous feelings even further.


We don't know much about Isa on the other hand. We know that Saix used Axel to take care of the higher ranking members of the organization in CO so that they could become more prominent members though and that shows a little bit about his personality. Saix isn't really a friend to Axel, I'd say he sees Axel as a useful tool which he knows how to use to get what he wants.

Yeah both Isa and Riku seem to be the more serious members of their own group of friends, but that's about it I guess.
Birth by Sleep implies Isa and Lea had planned something together OR that Lea was the eager beaver and Isa was just along for the ride. At some point, their roles might have switched around and Saix was the one more interested in their 'plan' and Axel just settled doing anything Saix told him to do. They definitely did not start off with Isa only seeing Lea as a tool to get higher in rank -that hadn't yet existed-

When viewed in their most simple forms, Isa and Riku have jealousy as one of their faults. Riku of course, had an entire redemption arc. Saix, not so much. Not sure if he's going to be redeemed and it doesn't matter to me either way. But still.
 

catcake

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Oh, well if that's what happened then yeah I understand why he would be so grumpy all the time. Now that I think about it, Axel kind of did just get new friends and not care about his old one. I mean, he's ready go through quite a lot for Roxas, but haven't seen much dedication for Isa/Saix. Aw. Now I feel bad for him.
 

DefiantHeart

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Maybe a realization already realized to most people, but yesterday I was watching a blind Birth by Sleep walkthrough and Lea and Isa appeared. It suddenly occurred to me today, how much Isa resembles Riku in a way.

Clearly Isa and Axel were best friends. Childhood friends... I'm uncertain of, but they definitely appear close and have known each other for a long time. Resembles Sora and Riku on their time on the islands.

Isa complains about Lea constantly picking up stray puppies and 'making friends' on the fly. It's like how Maleficent was able to convince Riku that Sora had found new best friends and didn't care about him and Kairi anymore (when obviously that wasn't the case, but jealousy still reared an ugly head)

Then comes 358/2 Days and Saix seems even more upset and jealous that Axel has new friends and values them over his and Axel's old friendship.

Isa/Saix is basically like a Riku who never got un-possessed by Ansem Seeker of Darkness.

Am I reading too much into it? Or is it intentional? Eh.
Yeah, I think chu pretty much right. Ish Nomura's way of showing us the other path Riku could've taken.
 

kirabook

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In my not so humble opinion, Axel definitely told Saix to "f*ck off" at some point. Maybe not in those words exactly, but it has to be a thing.
 

hemmoheikkinen

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Fascinating, I have not thought of this before.

I guess one way of seeing why Saix was so jealous and mad for Axel becoming friends with Roxas and Xion, is that maybe he viewed his and Axel`s bond to be more "real" in a sense. It`s based on their previous life when they were humans, and the memories and experiences gotten from there are the cornerstone. Now with them being Nobodies, shells who can`t feel, Saix probably thought how on earth could Axel make new friends and especially friends with someone who he viewed as a tool, object, an "it".

So Saix thinks his friendship with Axel is true because of the human memories they both have.
 

Alpha Baymax

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After Axel dies, Saix almost goes on a full nasty rant about him.
Actually, I believe that Saix only acts the way he acts, because as a nobody, he has been indoctrinated to believe that he does not have feelings. Pretending to show feelings is a sign of weakness in the organization. Even if he is a Xehanort vessel, Saix may have still not known his true purpose in the grand scheme of things, after all, remember how he dies in Kingdom Hearts II?

[video=youtube;O5ejGylcGB0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ejGylcGB0[/video]

Skip to 8:50 to see the last thing Saix says before disappearing…

Isa’s as much of a puppet to Xemnas as Riku was to Maleficent. Difference is, Saix fell too deep into Xehanort’s influence.
 
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palizinhas

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Yeah, that's a thing. Saix is very bitter over Axel in Days and, to a lesser extent, KH2. Axel and Saix keep going on about how the other has changed in Days' Secret Reports, with Saix's last Report having him say "Everything changed. You, and me" which I guess is when he accepts that the friendship between Lea and Isa that he still clung to is truly over.

Saix's general idea is that their friendship when they were humans has to be more real than anything they can have with no hearts, Axel says in one of the Reports that Saix would laugh at the idea of people with no hearts calling each other friends, and it seems they both seemed to think it was pretty much the most real thing they'd have. And then Axel befriends Roxas and Xion, and he mentions at one point about how he should be able to discuss the way he feels around the two of them with Saix since they are old friends, but he just doesn't feel like it anymore.

And all that just makes their plans, which according to Saix they formulated around the time they joined the Organization, become an "idle fantasy", in Saix's own words. It reached a point where Saix is so blinded in wanting to get his heart back in order to get back what he lost, that he starts treating Axel, which is the one thing of his human life that he still has, like a tool to his plans.
 

Sephiroth0812

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In my not so humble opinion, Axel definitely told Saix to "f*ck off" at some point. Maybe not in those words exactly, but it has to be a thing.
That's actually one of the few things that's shown really good in Days, in the game even better than in the movie from I.5.
It is shown in both how the interaction between the two gets more hostile and distant the more time goes on and in the secret reports.

Axel definitely got enstranged more and more from Saix, mostly because the latter didn't really mean and valued their "old" friendship anymore but just used it to get Axel to do what he wants.
It's like emotional blackmail in disguise.

The "f*ck off"-moment basically came on Day 193:
Days said:
Saïx: Well, that didn't take long. Did it break again?

Roxas: She's not an "it"!

(Axel walks past Saïx)

Axel (to Saïx): Keep your mouth shut.

(Roxas follows him)

Saïx: You have changed...


(He turns around and looks up)

Saïx: Something at Castle Oblivion changed you. Does the past mean
nothing to you now?
The irony is that Axel already back on Day 118 said the same about change with Saix in the secret report
Secret Report said:
Talking to Roxas and Xion always brings back memories of my human life, back
when I was a kid. It's a weird sensation.
I ought to be able to share all this with Saïx, but I just don't feel like it
anymore. It's strange, but I'm content with just missing what's gone.
I'm not the one who changed. You did.
That's one day after Saix "ordered" Axel to spy on Xion and inform him about her activities, something Axel seems to be rather upset about:
Day 117 said:
Saïx: Tell me what Xion has been doing.

Axel: How should I know? I'm not spying on her.

Saïx: ...But the two of you are close.

Axel: So what, now I've gotta rat on my friends to you? Get out of my
room, man.
So Axel starts to realize that Saix is just using him and up to Day 193 tension builds up between them.

After Day 193, Saix's and Axel's interactions seem to be on solely professional level rather than any personal strings attached anymore.
Saix may "hate"/despise Axel for eventually turning fully towards Roxas and Xion, but he himself is actually at fault for that by not only constantly looking down on both of the younger Nobodies and being needlessly assholish, but also by clearly showing Axel with his treatment of him that he doesn't really value their "old" friendship anymore for what it was but to only use Axel for getting his goals.

By the time KH 2 rolls around then their relationship detoriates even more once Saix becomes fully "Xemnas' lapdog" and Axel goes against the Organisation for Roxas' sake, ending in outright emnity during the last third.
 

Nicki6082

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this is one of my fav kingdom hearts memes because it essentially sums up Axel and Saix's relationship by this point. Axel is over their past by this point XD. I think there will be some sort of showdown between the two in KHIII though.
 

jeebz15

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Remember Lea had that fight and small friendship with Ven in bbs and later met roxas who not only had vens appearance but is connected to Sora who is the vessel of Vens heart. So laments terms; lea wanted ven as a friend and axle sought it out in roxas? Plus Isa definitely switched goals sometime along the journey because he acted out all of xehanorts plans.

And not that it mattered but kirabook you are referring to the quote "what would you rather suffer the loss of? A make believe friendship? Or a real one?" from days, correct?

That scene is one of my favorites ever haha
 
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