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Is the Org. really evil?



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Chakolat Strawberry

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Xemnas, he wanted... well he wanted something more I'm sure... which was probably evil..
Let's see, he wanted control over KH, he's power-hungry, he wants universe domination...I'd say he's evil.
As for their actions to get there, couldn't they have technically asked Sora to kill wave after wave of Heatless for them, as they just summon Heartless that already existed? That seems like the easier alternative instead of turning others into nobodies (why?), and kidnapping Kairi (again, why?).
Ask Sora? Not like he'd listen to them...though he'd have no choice but to kill Heartless anyway.

As for Kairi, if my memory's correct, it was to lure Sora.
 

Bakerboy

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Let's see, he wanted control over KH, he's power-hungry, he wants universe domination...I'd say he's evil..

See, I knew he was evil, but just couldn't find the specifics in there... I always felt the universe thing was too subtle for me to notice...

Ask Sora? Not like he'd listen to them...though he'd have no choice but to kill Heartless anyway.

Exactly, he already had to beat heartless - why would the organization risk him, I don't know, BEATING THEM if he was going to fight heartless one way or another? Plus, he likes to help people, as seen in every disney world of KH2. I'm sure if the Organization nicely asked him, he'd be glad to... idk.

As for Kairi, if my memory's correct, it was to lure Sora

See... I could understand the whole "luring him" thing coming from Axel - he wanted Roxas back. But like I said, Saix capturing her, if anything, made Sora just want to beat the Organization, not Heartless imo.
 

Chakolat Strawberry

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Exactly, he already had to beat heartless - why would the organization risk him, I don't know, BEATING THEM if he was going to fight heartless one way or another? Plus, he likes to help people, as seen in every disney world of KH2. I'm sure if the Organization nicely asked him, he'd be glad to... idk.
Even if they nicely asked, it's Organization XIII we're talking about. In Sora's eyes, they're evil, so he wouldn't help them. He wouldn't help them just because he's nice.
See... I could understand the whole "luring him" thing coming from Axel - he wanted Roxas back. But like I said, Saix capturing her, if anything, made Sora just want to beat the Organization, not Heartless imo.
Before the Xigbar fight, Saix said KH was pretty much done, and they needed a helping from the Keyblade Master. They lured him to TWTNW for his heart, so it wasn't really to just beat up Heartless.

As for Axel, I thought he was just following orders, but I haven't played KH2 in a while.
 

*TwilightNight*

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Bakerboy said:
See, I knew he was evil, but just couldn't find the specifics in there... I always felt the universe thing was too subtle for me to notice...

The funny thing about people calling them evil, is that it defeats the purpose of the "gray" area that the creators were trying to portray. Which is why I don't agree. The Organization aren't really doing this for the fun, or to usurp power. Their intentions are understandable. Their actions are "moralistic" wrong, but I honestly didn't find what they caused that big of a deal compared to what a large group of Heartless can do themselves. I still need to find proof that they were creating more Heartless, because then if the false KH was almost complete, there is no serious point to it. They destroy them. Not make them. Last time I checked, most of them just summoned Emblems or so.

Even Xemnas himself isn't "evil" [I really hate how much the word is thrown around, when evil is just simply a ideal word made by society and humanity, and what are their moral standards. It doesn't really exist]. Just a victim of what happens when a Heart loses itself to darkness and obsession. It's simple human weakness. Was Riku evil for being influenced by dark thoughts that he probalby would not have done if it wasn't for the Darkness inside him? Of course not. The difference is that Riku managed to embrace it. Xehanort is still controlled by it. To the point of no return unless KH ends with Sora somehow "purifying" Xehanort and making him see the light. Which I wouldn't doubt if Terra does turn out to be him.

They lured him to TWTNW for his heart, so it wasn't really to just beat up Heartless.

They lured him? When did that happen? From what I remember, they didn't want him there if they were set on defeating him. I have also never heard any mention about them wanting his Heart for whatever reason it's for. Sora chose to willingly go to their territory. To stop the "evil bad guys", sure. But not by some type of manipulation.
 
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Mr. Wilhelm

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[I really hate how much the word is thrown around, when evil is just simply a ideal word made by society and humanity, and what are their moral standards. It doesn't really exist]
This is exactly true, and IMO the perfect answer to the Organization's "evilness"

The Organization is evil in Sora's viewpoint. Go ask Xemnas of he is evil and he'll say no, he'd even be tempted to say Sora is. Good and evil are merely matter of viewpoint.
 

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I don't think anyone in the Organization would truly call themselves rightous (well, maybe other than Demyx). They're very goal oriented, but for the most part, I don't think Luxord thought he was a good guy when he did what he did in Port Royal, or that Saix has any illusions about being a martyr at the time of his death.
And Xemnas, being the most goal oriented of them all, I tend to give him more credit than to think he's a good guy. Way I see it, he's either the type to carry all the evil on his own shoulders, hence why the Org does what it does for the sake of all the lesser Nobodies, or he doesn't give a rat's ass so long as it gets the job done.

One might go as far as to take him fearing emotions as fearing his conscious will bite him in the ass once he gets it back, but that's really debatable.
 
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To keep it short, Nobodies are amoral, not immoral. They can't have morals since morals are bound by our own emotions (ex: We don't kill others because of, essentially, the sadness/fear/etc that it brings).

Since they can't feel, they can't differentiate between our perspective of right and wrong. Sure, they "know" based on their memories of the past what is right, but it's pointless without the emotion to compel them. It doesn't matter what is considered right or wrong to them, those words are nothing more than superfluous words to them. They carry no meaning.

Basically Nobodies weren't the bad guys. It was just that what they were doing was wrong relative to us and, in the end, it was a matter of survival of the fittest, them or Sora and co.
 
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Riku Fan1415

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Even if they nicely asked, it's Organization XIII we're talking about. In Sora's eyes, they're evil, so he wouldn't help them. He wouldn't help them just because he's nice.
Before the Xigbar fight, Saix said KH was pretty much done, and they needed a helping from the Keyblade Master. They lured him to TWTNW for his heart, so it wasn't really to just beat up Heartless.

As for Axel, I thought he was just following orders, but I haven't played KH2 in a while.

Well, it depends on how they would have worded it, like maybe, "We're doomed cursed to an existence of nothingness, we don't even exist. All we want is to be whole again, will you help us?" That would get Sora to help them because it shows all they want is to be whole again.

Yes, but by that, Saix meant that Sora just had to kill a few more Heartless to complete KH. The reason an entire army flooded into the place was because Sora wouldn't be needed after KH was complete. What did you think they would do with him? They were obviously planning on disposing of him after he served their purposes. They never needed his heart, just someone with a Keyblade.

Axel left the Organization sometime in KH2 after Sora woke up. Before, he was considering leaving if he couldn't get Roxas to come back. So, he was acting on orders, but also because he wanted Roxas to come back, too. Kidnapping Kairi was a sign that he hadn't given up on Roxas, despite leaving the Org.
 

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I really hate how much the word is thrown around, when evil is just simply a ideal word made by society and humanity, and what are their moral standards. It doesn't really exist.

Even though people have different ideas of what evil is, it still exists. Look at Ted Bundy, or any other serial killer. You are saying that it isn't evil to kill innocent people because someone else doesn't think so. Just because someone else doesn't think it is wrong, doesn't make it right. If someone came and killed your best friend for no other reason then because they felt like it, that person would be evil. (Which makes Larxene evil, because she enjoys hurting people.)
 

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Well, with what Hershey said and what not about them being evil in Sora's eyes, why would Sora see the organization as evil? If Yen Sid had never come along, Sora would have nothing to base that off of except Xemnas fighting him in KH1 (FM). Even then, I doubt one fight make Sora see them as evil - he didn't see the Mulan characters as evil after they beat him and Donald up. Technically also, we the players play through Sora's eyes, yet here we are debating it...

And with Xemnas being evil, I think the fact that we know what Ansem SoD was all about, and Xemnas just being what was left of him (or, maybe all that there ever was...) we could make the connection of Xemnas being "evil."

As for wanting Sora's heart, the Organization would never have needed it - they had already once had his nobody, and cutscenes show that only Axel wanted that nobody back, as said by Saix in Twilight Town. And, what I don't understand is, why would they bother to eliminate Sora if they finally had reached their goal - all they had to do was get their heart and, wah-lah, Sora had no reason to defeat them (as for as we could tell).

Personally, I think Yen Sid really ruined the whole "evil" thing with them, just because he never told us WHY they had to be stopped. Oh well...
 

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I never really consedered the Org to be bad. Yeah, some of of the members were just plain mean, as others have said, but the Org. had good intentions. They really just wanted to be like everyone else again. So, they do it anyway that they can find. They didn't let anything stand in their way either. The whole thing with Sora was to use him to reach their own goals, and yeah, that is wrong, but wouldn't we all do the same thing? Really, they aren't nice all the time, but they are beliveable.
 

_EX

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I never really consedered the Org to be bad. Yeah, some of of the members were just plain mean, as others have said, but the Org. had good intentions. They really just wanted to be like everyone else again. So, they do it anyway that they can find. They didn't let anything stand in their way either. The whole thing with Sora was to use him to reach their own goals, and yeah, that is wrong, but wouldn't we all do the same thing? Really, they aren't nice all the time, but they are beliveable.

They wernt doing bad but its just that somethings they did unneccessarily like kidnap Kairi and screw with Beast. If they didnt do that stuff they probably wouldve succeeded but it wouldve taken a bit longer
 

DarkRoxasNobody

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They are just evil to Sora and Company because they want to collect hearts to open Kingdom Hearts. Otherwise know as the DTD (Door To Darkness). They want to open that to gain more power, or become whole again.
 

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Even though people have different ideas of what evil is, it still exists. Look at Ted Bundy, or any other serial killer. You are saying that it isn't evil to kill innocent people because someone else doesn't think so. Just because someone else doesn't think it is wrong, doesn't make it right. If someone came and killed your best friend for no other reason then because they felt like it, that person would be evil. (Which makes Larxene evil, because she enjoys hurting people.)

What you're saying is just another viewpoint. Obviously I don't think it's right to kill someone for pleasure, but I wouldn't call them "evil" (or I wouldn't act like it's a rock hard fact), because evil isn't something tangible. It's an idea/concept and nothing more than that. What defines evil is subjective. it's not something you can measure, quantify, or be sure about.

Right or wrong are generally based on what's detrimental to society and what isn't (along with emotions; if you or nobody else cared about your father being killed, murder wouldn't be illegal. because we wouldn't care). And even then, often, different societies have different views on different matters. Just look at how women are treated in the Middle East in comparison to other parts of the world. We think it's atrocious, but to them it's the natural order of things. Do you really think we can call them "evil" just like that? What gives you the right to say your perspective of evil is absolute and all others are wrong? Seeing the world in black and white is kind of silly.

But uh, that asides, I agree with the following:

To keep it short, Nobodies are amoral, not immoral. They can't have morals since morals are bound by our own emotions (ex: We don't kill others because of, essentially, the sadness/fear/etc that it brings).

Since they can't feel, they can't differentiate between our perspective of right and wrong. Sure, they "know" based on their memories of the past what is right, but it's pointless without the emotion to compel them. It doesn't matter what is considered right or wrong to them, those words are nothing more than superfluous words to them. They carry no meaning.

Basically Nobodies weren't the bad guys. It was just that what they were doing was wrong relative to us and, in the end, it was a matter of survival of the fittest, them or Sora and co.
 
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*TwilightNight*

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For the whole evil factor, Chevalier Sombre answered it in ways I never could :p. So I can skip that.

Sora'd have seen the Org as evil once they tried to make Beast into a Heartless to get his Nobody and attacked Hollow Bastion :v

Xaldin's plans =/= Organization's as a whole.

He was obviously interested in Beast from the get-go, which is hinted even in Days.

He might've given them a bad name, however.
 

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Well, it's not like all of them were particularilly nice towards Sora in the long run. Even Demyx eventually pulled out a note filled with high words and then pulled out his weapon, despite being the current "nice guy".
 

Pheonex

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Well, it's not like all of them were particularilly nice towards Sora in the long run. Even Demyx eventually pulled out a note filled with high words and then pulled out his weapon, despite being the current "nice guy".
I think he was the nice/dumb/funny guy until he remembered how Roxas gad betrayed the Organization and took it out on Sora.
 
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