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Is Org XIII really THAT bad?



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Ikkin

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Axel was NOT evil! How could someone give up their life, SACRIFICE THEMSELVES FOR SOMEONE ELSE LIKE THE WAY HE DID AND BE EVIL?! Sure, he went about things wrong, but didn't they all?!

Calling Axel evil is something I absolutely cannot understand after 358/2 Days. xD He's just got far too much to him to slap black-and-white labels on him like that.
 

Guilded.Raven

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EXACTLY! In my opinion, those are the best kinds of characters - the ones who aren't good or evil. It makes their personalities seem more well-rounded.
 

Neku's nobody

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Even if Saix didn't want KH for power, he was still evil, whether only a bit or a lot. He didn't care that they were turning people into Heartless, using Xion and Roxas, etc.
Technically nobodies cant feel. only roxas cause sora's hearts was so strong and he had many memories of feeling.
 

Satoshi

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Can someone define 'bad' or 'evil'? I mean, we don't all know for sure if everyone has the same thoughts about those terms.

The Organization's goal would be, according to today's moral standards, evil. But if you look at all the Organization members separately you will see that each and everyone of them is not thát evil. Except for great mastermind Xemnas. I think you cannot label the organization evil or good as there's too many different people in it.
 

UnstoppableSound

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Can someone define 'bad' or 'evil'? I mean, we don't all know for sure if everyone has the same thoughts about those terms.

The Organization's goal would be, according to today's moral standards, evil. But if you look at all the Organization members separately you will see that each and everyone of them is not thát evil. Except for great mastermind Xemnas. I think you cannot label the organization evil or good as there's too many different people in it.

I believe you can label the Organization's ultimate goal & Xemnas' dream as evil. However, yes, most were oblivious to what Xemnas was truly plotting, and his mind was a mystery to them. Members such as Demyx, Axel, Roxas, and Xion can clearly be labeled with good intentions.
 

Chakolat Strawberry

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Their "ultimate goal" was to get their hearts. They didn't really give a shit about the power (or at least, most of them), as long as they got their hearts.
Members such as Demyx, Axel, Roxas, and Xion can clearly be labeled with good intentions.
Not too sure about this one.
 

fantasy08

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Guilded Raven glad you agree about Saix. It just bothers me when people take that quote out of context, and then ignore word of god canon to suit their own arguments. However, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on Axel. Axel not evil? Let's not draco and leather pants him here. Did you play Re:Com? He was most defintely evil as hell in the game. I don't even think I need to list the atrocities he did in that one.

In Days not evil, but selfish and extremely so. That's not a good quality to have.He kept his so called best friends very existence from them for his own selfish reasons.Not to mention he beat the crap out of Xion twice and both times brought her back into the organization's horrible clutches.Even roxas, and derservely so, called him a jerk for that first time. Sometimes even if it hurts you, you have to do what's right for your friends and Axel didn't do that. So when both of his friends left him, and roxas told him off at the end, I cheered because it was a long time coming.

In Kh2 he tried his best to bring Roxas back against his will. He kidnapped Kairi with the intent of luring Sora to him so he could turn him into a heartless. How is that not evil? Axel might have stopped being a evil,selfish prick and gave his life in the end,but that does not erase the fact that he was as bad as the rest of the organization before that, and thus he is not a good person. Just an anti-hero. The only truly innocent nobodies are Roxas and Namine. Even though I think Xion is a good person as well I didn't put her for obvious Days spoiler reasons.

Being BFF with Roxas does not excuse the fact that he was a willing participant in every bad thing the organization did before and even after Roxas came. If anybody is going to paint the organization as evil make sure you draw the paint stroke over Axel as well.

Also while Demyx might not be my favorite, I'm going to have to take up for him on this. Calling Axel basically an angel and Demyx evil is insane to me. This game just more confirmed that Demyx was just a lazy goofball in with the wrong crowd. The bad thing he did in Kh2 is not even close to the crap Axel did in three games. Of course fans will say anything if it'll make Axel look like a good boy.


Note: I'm not talking about you specifically just his fans in general.
 
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Ikkin

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Not too sure about this one.

"Good" might be going too far, but I don't think you can really call Demyx's intentions bad, either. He's apathetic and lazy, but all he really wants (apart from his heart) is not to be stuck in physically demanding situations.


Guilded Raven glad you agree about Saix. It just bothers me when people take that quote out of context, and then ignore word of god canon to suit their own arguments. However, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree on Axel. Axel not evil? Let's not draco and leather pants him here. Did you play Re:Com? He was most defintely evil as hell in the game. I don't even think I need to list the atrocities he did in that one.

Let's see. Axel offed Vexen for trying to tell Sora about Roxas, and Zexion because Saix considered him a threat and he found out too much about the replica project, but they're Nobodies, and no one values the life of a Nobody all that highly (unless it's their own life). He used Riku-Replica as a pawn, but he didn't know enough to consider it a person (and he came to realize that was the wrong thing to do later on).

He seemed to legitimately care about Sora and Namine, considering the fact that he effectively betrayed the Organization by letting them go.

Re:CoM Axel definitely did some evil things - killing defenseless allies as they beg for mercy is kinda hard to justify - but I'm still not sure it's fair to categorize him as an evil person.


In Days not evil, but selfish and extremely so. That's not a good quality to have.He kept his so called best friends very existence from them for his own selfish reasons.Not to mention he beat the crap out of Xion twice and both times brought her back into the organization's horrible clutches.Even roxas, and derservely so, called him a jerk for that first time. Sometimes even if it hurts you, you have to do what's right for your friends and Axel didn't do that. So when both of his friends left him, and roxas told him off at the end, I cheered because it was a long time coming.

I... think you're misinterpreting Days Axel, badly.

He can't stand the thought of either of his friends being hurt - but he was constantly forced into a position where he had to choose the lesser of two evils. Lying about the nature of Roxas and Xion's existence to keep them from leaving seems selfish... but letting them find out would cause them pain, and likely lead to the end of their existence. Bringing Xion back by force is harsh - but when failing to do so means she'll be taken in by someone who couldn't care less about her safety or even her life... (There's a reason why Xion herself thought Roxas was being unreasonable for holding that against Axel)

Axel legitimately thought he was doing what was best for his friends. He just thought he knew what was best better than they did, because he had a clearer view of the situation.


In Kh2 he tried his best to bring Roxas back against his will. He kidnapped Kairi with the intent of luring Sora to him so he could turn him into a heartless. How is that not evil? Axel might have stopped being a evil,selfish prick and gave his life in the end,but that does not erase the fact that he was as bad as the rest of the organization before that, and thus he is not a good person. Just an anti-hero. The only truly innocent nobodies are Roxas and Namine. Even though I think Xion is a good person as well I didn't put her for obvious Days spoiler reasons.

Twilight Town Roxas was in no real position to make decisions for Roxas, from Axel's point of view. Remember, even if he seemed happy in the simulation before the Nobodies started showing up, TT!Roxas was still a kidnapped kid unknowingly fighting to keep himself in captivity.

And Axel never tried to turn Sora into a Heartless. Saix was lying about that. Axel kidnapped Kairi because Namine wanted to see her, and he figured having those two back together might give him some ideas about how to see Roxas again. (That's from the novels, true - but the Remembrance scene from Final Mix+ strongly implies that Axel and Namine had friendly contact more recently than the end of Roxas' seven days).

As for innocent Nobodies, I thought the point was that there aren't any. Roxas might not have been consciously aware of the less desirable methods used by the Organization, but he definitely had a selfish streak to him - the kid's willing to use lethal force against his best friends faster than Axel when his own life's in danger. Namine is pretty selfless, but she's also willing to sacrifice both Roxas and Xion for Sora's sake - not exactly the picture of innocence she looks like, even disregarding all of the stuff she was coerced into.
 
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Tatsu

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What they want is not evil. Them wanting their hearts makes you feel sorry for them. But seeing how they treat the clones and say how they dont feel anything makes them come off as a bunch of jerks and hypocrites. Dont go wondering why people treat you rotten for not having a heart when you turn around and do the same thing to another group of beings.
 

fantasy08

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Let's see. Axel offed Vexen for trying to tell Sora about Roxas, and Zexion because Saix considered him a threat and he found out too much about the replica project, but they're Nobodies, and no one values the life of a Nobody all that highly (unless it's their own life). He used Riku-Replica as a pawn, but he didn't know enough to consider it a person (and he came to realize that was the wrong thing to do later on).

I see. So since they are nobodies we shouldn't care about their demise? Then in that case no one should care about Namine, Roxas, Xion(sorta) or Axel. They are only nobodies after all.

He seemed to legitimately care about Sora and Namine, considering the fact that he effectively betrayed the Organization by letting them go.

Axel was a traitor the moment he stepped into that castle. No, even before that. The second he joined the organization .Or did you forget his and Saix plan. Axel didn't let Namine go because it was the right thing to do. He did it for his on sick amusement. Give me one hell of a show. Remember that. Or in Re:com he meant the same thing, he even started laughing about it, just without the curse word.He was playing everybody in that castle like a harmonica and was enjoying every second of it. Let's not forget he was willing to mow Namine down to get to Marluxia. Care? Please. Stop trying to sugar coat his actions.

Journal entry in Re:Com
Axel has no qualms about exploiting others to suit his needs. He used Sora and Naminé to silence Marluxia and halt his plot against the Organization.



Re:CoM Axel definitely did some evil things - killing defenseless allies as they beg for mercy is kinda hard to justify - but I'm still not sure it's fair to categorize him as an evil person.

Hard to justify? Try impossible. You and I both know that if someone had done that in real life we would be screaming for his blood,but since it isn't, and it's Axel the bishie with a 15 year old lover(using fan logic here) it's okay. Axel crossed the moral event horizon with that one act for a lot of people including me. He went from being a badass manipulative bastard with a soft spot for Roxas to being a monster in an instant.

There is one very important difference between Sora destroying a member and Axel doing it. Sora did it in self defense. Axel did not. If he wanted to off Vexen and Zexion there were more humane ways to do it instead of killing them while they plead for their lives and were weak and defenseless with a sadistic smile on his face. He could have fought them when they were at their full strength like he did Marluxia being one way.

Oh and let's not forget he sent the Riku replica merrily to his death even after said replica helped Sora and Namine. Also don't tell me he didn't know the replica was his own person. His secret report blatantly says that he did.Read day 194. He simply didn't care that it was now a person or that treating it like garbage was wrong until he actually befriended one, and then it was like oh golly gee I treated another replica like a tool,but now one of my best friends is one opps!




I... think you're misinterpreting Days Axel, badly.
He can't stand the thought of either of his friends being hurt - but he was constantly forced into a position where he had to choose the lesser of two evils. Lying about the nature of Roxas and Xion's existence to keep them from leaving seems selfish... but letting them find out would cause them pain, and likely lead to the end of their existence. Bringing Xion back by force is harsh - but when failing to do so means she'll be taken in by someone who couldn't care less about her safety or even her life... (There's a reason why Xion herself thought Roxas was being unreasonable for holding that against Axel)
Axel legitimately thought he was doing what was best for his friends. He just thought he knew what was best better than they did, because he had a clearer view of the situation.

I don't think I'm misinterpreting him at all. Axel wanted his fill like a heart drug to stay so he deliberately kept the truth from him. His lies and selfishness ended up hurting more than it helped. Roxas begged Axel to tell him the truth. Axel wouldn't budge so Roxas told him off and left. He should have respected Roxas and Xion enough to tell them the truth, and then let them make their own decisions about their life and the life of another they were keeping from waking up.



Twilight Town Roxas was in no real position to make decisions for Roxas, from Axel's point of view. Remember, even if he seemed happy in the simulation before the Nobodies started showing up, TT!Roxas was still a kidnapped kid unknowingly fighting to keep himself in captivity.

Hmm Staying in captivity in a cheerful, if fake, life or going back to the dark organization to do some more inhumane things. Not to mention he was put there so he could join back with Sora. Where he belongs.

"The roxas I knew is long gone." No **** shelock. Why would the Roxas you knew be willing to come back to the organization when the roxas you knew is the one who hauled a** away from them in the first place?

He was trying to take him back against his will. Again stop trying to sugarcoat.

And Axel never tried to turn Sora into a Heartless. Saix was lying about that. Axel kidnapped Kairi because Namine wanted to see her, and he figured having those two back together might give him some ideas about how to see Roxas again. (That's from the novels, true - but the Remembrance scene from Final Mix+ strongly implies that Axel and Namine had friendly contact more recently than the end of Roxas' seven days).

Saix could have been lying. However using the novels which Nomura has pretty much said are published fanfiction is not going to prove that. The final mix scene showed her leaving with Axel. Who knows were they went or if she even stayed with him. The next time we see Axel, Namine is know where to be found, and the next time we see her is at the end of the game.Axel forced Kairi to come with him. Where I'm from that's called kidnapping. Going by what was said in the game, and what was shown Axel doing right before that, and keeping in mind that Axel was pretty obsessed with Roxas, well actions speak louder than words.

As for innocent Nobodies, I thought the point was that there aren't any. Roxas might not have been consciously aware of the less desirable methods used by the Organization, but he definitely had a selfish streak to him - the kid's willing to use lethal force against his best friends faster than Axel when his own life's in danger. Namine is pretty selfless, but she's also willing to sacrifice both Roxas and Xion for Sora's sake - not exactly the picture of innocence she looks like, even disregarding all of the stuff she was coerced into.

Hmm, So you're saying Roxas and Namine aren't innocent just to make Axel look more so. How does that work? They are more innocent then Axel will ever be. You use Roxas willing to fight Axel as a excuse. Axel was trying to force him to do something he didn't want to do. Or kill him. Take your pick. It's called self-defense. Roxas did nothing wrong at all in the situation. Namine was forced to do what she did to Sora. However, she did show a small bit of selfishness when she clearly wanted Sora to keep his memories of castle oblivion of her, but that moment was fleeting and she did what Sora wanted which was the right thing to do. I pity Roxas and Xion. They only wanted to be their own people. However, I side with Namine on this. They, like all nobodies/replicas, are a abomination against nature. They were keeping Sora a human from waking up so they had to go. Xion knew her ceasing to exist was the right thing to do, and Roxas figured that out fully by the end of Kh2 as well.

I can't understand how you can admit re:com axel was evil and afterward selfish, but still be a good person that can be put in the same category as Roxas, Xion,and Namine. I mean it just doesn't compute, and you can't see why I don't think Axel is a good person because he was as bad as the rest of the organization as well as a poisonous friend, but more like an anti-hero by kh2. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.
 
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Ikkin

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I see. So since they are nobodies we shouldn't care about their demise? Then in that case no one should care about Namine, Roxas, Xion(sorta) or Axel. They are only nobodies after all.

That's not exactly what I was saying. =/

What I meant was, from the perspective of the characters in the game at that point in time, Nobody life was valued at practically nothing. Since Axel's a Nobody and therefore doesn't have a conscience to help him make moral decisions, this is important - he didn't really have much of a reason to think that killing other Nobodies is wrong.

As an illustration, imagine Player A is playing a videogame and gleefully killing off NPCs - only it turns out they're actually capable of conscious thinking and feeling. Oops. Player A definitely did a bad thing, but I'm pretty sure you'd judge him less harshly than Player B, who knew that the NPCs were people all along and gleefully murdered them anyway. Which is the point I was trying to make - Axel's actions are evil, but he's not deliberately doing something he knows is wrong.


Axel was a traitor the moment he stepped in that castle. No, even before that. The second he joined the organization .Or did you forget his and Saix plan. Axel didn't let Namine go because it was the right thing to do. He did it for his on sick amusement.

Yeah, Axel's always been a traitor - but he certainly wasn't about to act against the Organization's interests when he didn't have anything to gain by it. And allowing Sora and Namine to leave Castle Oblivion with DiZ certainly wasn't part of his plot with Saix, considering the fact that Axel didn't let Saix in on the fact that he was the one who let them get away.

Letting Namine out of Marluxia's clutches wasn't done for any reason like it being the right thing to do, I agree. But that's not what I was referring to - I'm hard-pressed to think of what Axel would have gained by letting Sora and Namine leave the castle unhindered after all of the other Organization members in the castle had been killed.


Hard to justify? Try impossible. You and I both know that if someone had done that in real life we would be screaming for his blood,but since it isn't, and it's Axel the bishie with a 15 year old lover(using fan logic here) it's okay. Axel crossed the moral event horizon with that one act for a lot of people including me. He went from being a badass manipulative ******* with a soft spot for Roxas to being a monster in an instant.

Yeah, I know it's an understatement. That was kinda the point.

The real life equivalency doesn't really work, in my opinion, because the fact that the characters involved are both Nobodies changes things so much. And that particular scene was Axel at his most Nobody-like, when he had no moral frame of reference for dealing with other Nobodies, whatsoever.

And I'm not saying CoM Axel was a good person, by all means. He did things that were, quite frankly, terrible. However, the deficit in information does somewhat mitigate the judgement that can be made about his character as a whole - I find it difficult to call a person evil when they can legitimately say "If I had known more, I would not have committed this evil act." And the fact that Axel is able to grow past his amoral Nobody nature is the entire point of his character arc in 358/2 Days.


There is one very important difference between Sora destroying a member and Axel doing it. Sora did it in self defense. Axel did not. If he wanted to off Vexen and Zexion there were more humane ways to do it instead of killing them while they plead for their lives and were weak and defenseless with a sadistic smile on his face. He could have fought them when they were at their full strength like he did Marluxia being one way.

Did I ever imply that what Axel did was morally equivalent to what Sora did? o_0 Axel's actions were bad. They just don't make him an evil person (kind of like how the bad things that Riku did don't make him an evil person).

Axel did need to take Vexen out right then and there, though. He couldn't exactly be all too picky about how he would kill Vexen when he was about to tell Sora about Roxas. As for the way he went about it, I'd imagine that a lot of that was for Sora's benefit - it's certainly an effective way of establishing people in black coats as dangerous and in need of a Keyblade to the face.


Oh and let's not forget he sent the Riku replica merrily to his death even after said replica helped Sora and Namine. Also don't tell me he didn't know the replica was his own person. His secret report blatantly says that he did.Read day 194. He simply didn't care that it was now a person or that treating it like garbage was wrong until he actually befriended one, and then it was like oh golly gee I treated another replica like a tool,but now my best friend is one opps!

Day 195 makes it pretty clear that he hadn't ever really considered whether or not Riku-Replica was worth anything up until that point, I thought.

Plus, he's a Nobody. The fact that Axel is drawing that conclusion at all is progress, even if he is a bit late about it.


I don't think I'm misinterpreting him at all. Axel wanted his fill like a heart drug to stay so he deliberately kept the truth from him. His lies and selfishness ended up hurting more than it helped. Roxas begged Axel to tell him the truth. Axel wouldn't budge so Roxas told him off and left. He should have respected Roxas and Xion enough to tell them the truth and then let them make their own decisions about their life and the life of another they were keeping from waking up.

How can you have played 358/2 Days all the way through and still think that Axel thought of Roxas as a "heart drug?" o_____0 It's pretty clear that he still felt like he had a heart when Roxas and Xion took off. He just felt like he had a heart that was being violently torn out. He wouldn't have been in nearly so much pain if his friendship was the sham you're trying to make it out to be.

Yeah, the lies ended up causing Roxas to leave anyway. But considering how things had been going, there was no good solution anymore. The likeliest result of telling Roxas about Sora would be Roxas deciding that he had to see Sora and ignoring the part where meeting Sora means no more Roxas.

And remember, Axel did decide at several points that he would answer some of the questions Roxas and Xion were asking about themselves and each other. Axel answered Roxas' question about Xion the day before their big confrontation, after all. Roxas didn't get it, and it just made things worse.


Hmm Staying in captivity in a cheerful, if fake, life or going back to the dark organization to do some more inhumane things. Not to mention he was put there so he could join back with Sora. Where he belongs.

"The roxas I knew is long gone." No **** shelock. Why would the Roxas you knew be willing to come back to the organization when the roxas you knew is the one who hauled a** away from them in the first place?

He was trying to take him back against his will. Again stop trying to sugarcoat.

I am positive that non-brainwashed Roxas would never have chosen the simulation. He wanted his life back, above everything else - the idea of having his personality replaced and being forced to live a fake life until it came time for him to give that up, too, would have horrified him.

Considering the state that Roxas was in, Axel really had no other choice. He could either kidnap Roxas against the constructed personality's will, or watch as his best friend walked unknowingly to his doom. The question of whether Axel would have forced the real Roxas back against his will doesn't enter into the equation at all.

(Personally, I think the real Roxas wouldn't have fought so hard against Axel. He didn't want to rejoin the Organization, obviously, but he had little reason to avoid being taken in when that meant he'd get a perfect shot at Xemnas)


Saix could have been lying. However using the novels which Nomura has pretty much said are published fanfiction is not going to prove that. The final mix scene showed her leaving with Axel. Who knows were they went or if she even stayed with him. The next time we see Axel, Namine is know where to be found, and the next time we see her is at the end of the game.Axel forced Kairi to come with him. Where I'm from that's called kidnapping. Going by what was said in the game, and what was shown Axel doing right before that, and keeping in mind that Axel was pretty obsessed with Roxas, well actions speak louder than words.

That wasn't the Final Mix scene I was referring to. I was referring to the scene on the Clock Tower, when Axel and Roxas met up for the last time. Roxas said that he was going back to how he was, and Axel responded that Namine had said the same thing. It really felt like he was showing a familiarity with her that never developed on-screen, but fit in perfectly with the alliances from the novels.

Besides, Axel kidnapping Kairi to force Sora back into a Heartless just doesn't fit his character at all, especially the way he interacts with Sora. He apologizes to Sora for kidnapping and losing Kairi - but that makes no sense if he wants to turn Sora into a Heartless. He could easily use the fact that Sora thinks he has Kairi to lead him into a trap, or to try to force him into despair, but he doesn't. And apart from kidnapping Kairi, Axel doesn't take a single action in the entire game that could even potentially be a step towards the goal of turning Sora into a Heartless.

Saix, on the other hand, has every reason to lie. The novels might not be canon, but when they bring up an option that makes so much more sense than the original assumption, I don't see why we shouldn't believe them.


Hmm, So you're saying Roxas and Namine aren't innocent just to make Axel look more so. How does that work? They are more innocent then Axel will ever be. You use Roxas willing to fight Axel as a excuse. Axel was trying to force him to do something he didn't want to or kill him take your pick. It's called self-defense. Roxas did nothing wrong at all in the situation. Namine was forced to do what she did to Sora. However, she did show a small bit of selfishness when she clearly wanted Sora to keep his memories of castle oblivion of her, but that moment was fleeting and she did what Sora wanted which was the right thing to do. I pity Roxas and Xion. They only wanted to be their own people. However, I side with Namine on this. They, like all nobodies/replicas, are a abomination against nature. They were keeping Sora a human from waking up so they had to go. Xion knew her ceasing to exist was the right thing to do, and Roxas figured that out fully by the end of Kh2 as well.

I can't understand how you can admit re:com axel was evil and afterward selfish, but still be a good person that can be put in the same category as Roxas, Xion,and Namine. I mean it just doesn't compute, and you can't see why I don't think Axel is a good person because he was a bad as the rest of the organization and well as a poisonous friend, but more like an anti-hero by kh2. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Hmm, you seem to have gotten the wrong idea. I wasn't trying to tar Roxas and Namine to make Axel look better - and I'm certainly not trying to say that Axel is just as good as either of them. I just find them more interesting when they're allowed to show the kind of moral ambiguity associated with Nobodies, rather than flattened out into complete innocents.

What I am trying to say is that, if we're going to stick Axel into a category, it'd be better to stick him in with Riku than with Xemnas. They both did really bad things early on, and are still willing to do bad things (like, say, kidnapping) out of desperation to fix their friends - but if they weren't in such crazy circumstances, they'd probably both be fun to hang around with.

I guess that's the distinction I really want to make. Calling a person evil implies, to me, that they're innately evil. The Disney villains are innately evil. The Xehanort incarnations are innately evil. No matter where you stick them, they'll end up hurting people, because that's just who they are. Axel's evil actions are circumstantial - if he wasn't involved with the Organization, he'd probably turn completely into the friendly big brother figure he is when he's around Roxas and Xion. (Note that I can very easily see Demyx and Luxord being the same way, though neither of them get much of a chance to show what that other side would be like)
 

Guilded.Raven

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OH HO HO! We is gonna have a feud!

I'm not saying that Axel doesn't deserve the "stroke of paint" as you so eloquently put it. Yes, he was selfish and no, he wasn't innocent. I will admit that.

However, when he dies for Sora, he completely contradicts himself! He contradicts the selfishness that caused you to call him a pr***. In Days you see obvious change!

How can you have played 358/2 Days all the way through and still think that Axel thought of Roxas as a "heart drug?" o_____0 It's pretty clear that he still felt like he had a heart when Roxas and Xion took off. He just felt like he had a heart that was being violently torn out. He wouldn't have been in nearly so much pain if his friendship was the sham you're trying to make it out to be.
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How can you call Roxas his heart drug?! Axel OBVIOUSLY has a very strong bond with Roxas and Xion and even Saix confirms that! He doesn't understand why Axel would hold on to the bond between the three of them and BERATES him for it!!! It's not a fake bond! When Roxas leaves, Axel is upset and at one point even cries! Over a bond that was "fake"? I don't think so.
 

fantasy08

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What I meant was, from the perspective of the characters in the game at that point in time, Nobody life was valued at practically nothing. Since Axel's a Nobody and therefore doesn't have a conscience to help him make moral decisions, this is important - he didn't really have much of a reason to think that killing other Nobodies is wrong.Which is the point I was trying to make - Axel's actions are evil, but he's not deliberately doing something he knows is wrong.

I'm still not following you. By your logic the whole organization shouldn't be blamed at all for their actions either.However we both know that's absurd right? Screwed morality or not Axel, as well as the rest of the organization, remembers what it was like to be human. So they definitely knew right from wrong. I mean that's like saying someone with a split personality,a good side and a bad side,shouldn't be held responsibility for what the bad side did. The hypocrisy in your logic.. I just... It's like your saying since it's Axel, everybody's favorite flame-haired pedo, that his horrible deeds are excused because he's a nobody, but the organization, who are in the same nobody boat as him, get painted THE EVIL. Yea.. Not following.

One more thing it's said that Axel was beginning to feel like a human by being with Roxas before he went to castle Oblivion and then by Sora while he was there. Then that means when Axel was using everybody in the castle as his own personal playthings, killing his own comrades sadistically, making bets on which one would die next with Zexion etc he had more of a conscience then anybody in the organization. Think about that.


The real life equivalency doesn't really work, in my opinion, because the fact that the characters involved are both Nobodies changes things so much. And that particular scene was Axel at his most Nobody-like, when he had no moral frame of reference for dealing with other Nobodies, whatsoever.

Er... If we didn't apply real life equivalency to the organization then why are we having this conversation? I mean in real life we would peg the organization as a pack of horrible people, and would demand justice for what they did. It's our real life sense of morality that causes us to even say that about them. Yet you say we shouldn't use real life to judge them? It just seems like you're trying to erase Axel's misdeeds because he's a bishie as well as friends with Roxas. Basically draco and leather pantsing him.


Did I ever imply that what Axel did was morally equivalent to what Sora did? o_0 Axel's actions were bad. They just don't make him an evil person (kind of like how the bad things that Riku did don't make him an evil person).

My God. Please tell me what you do consider evil. I mean in your book what does someone have to do to finally have that label slapped on them.

I 'm so glad you brought Riku up.In my book Kh1 Riku was definitely evil. He destroyed his home. A whole island got wiped out, and the heartless had them a fine dinner I'm sure with the people of that that island. Another consequence is one of his best friend's heart got taken and the other barely escaped to another world with his life. He deliberately gave up to the darkness. He deliberately helped Maleficent. He deliberately let Xehnaort's heartless take over his body. He tried to kill his best friend on more than one occasion. He deliberately kept Kairi from Sora. He was horrible to Beast. He took Sora's keyblade and his friends to the point that we learned from Days, through Roxas, Sora cried etc.

Axel did need to take Vexen out right then and there, though. He couldn't exactly be all too picky about how he would kill Vexen when he was about to tell Sora about Roxas. As for the way he went about it, I'd imagine that a lot of that was for Sora's benefit - it's certainly an effective way of establishing people in black coats as dangerous and in need of a Keyblade to the face.

Considering the disgusted face Sora made when Axel did that to Vexen I'm pretty sure it wasn't for Sora's benefit, but for his. Axel enjoyed what he did to Vexen and Zexion if the sadistic smile on his face didn't clue you in.

Day 195 makes it pretty clear that he hadn't ever really considered whether or not Riku-Replica was worth anything up until that point, I thought.Plus, he's a Nobody. The fact that Axel is drawing that conclusion at all is progress, even if he is a bit late about it.

Hmm the report was really blatant without any room for interpretation about the Riku replica. He knew it was it's on person. Like I said he didn't care until he made friends with one, and then it was like Opps. Maybe I can see that because I'm not wearing Axel is a good boy fan goggles.


How can you have played 358/2 Days all the way through and still think that Axel thought of Roxas as a "heart drug?" o_____0 It's pretty clear that he still felt like he had a heart when Roxas and Xion took off. He just felt like he had a heart that was being violently torn out. He wouldn't have been in nearly so much pain if his friendship was the sham you're trying to make it out to be.

Never said Axel 's friendship overall with Roxas wasn't real. Never even implied it. What I'm saying is that there was a undercurrent of obsession on Axel's part of that friendship. Roxas made him feel like he had a heart, something that a nobody longs to have, so he kept that drug near him even if it meant being selfish and lying and keeping a human being from waking.


I am positive that non-brainwashed Roxas would never have chosen the simulation. He wanted his life back, above everything else - the idea of having his personality replaced and being forced to live a fake life until it came time for him to give that up, too, would have horrified him.Considering the state that Roxas was in, Axel really had no other choice. He could either kidnap Roxas against the constructed personality's will, or watch as his best friend walked unknowingly to his doom.


Walking unknowingly to his doom? So rejoining his other, being human, being whole, is dooming him is it? I could have sworn that is what all nobodies wanted,and Roxas got that. While I feel for Roxas since he wanted so bad to be his on person the fact of the matter is he isn't and never was. He belongs with Sora. The human.

(Personally, I think the real Roxas wouldn't have fought so hard against Axel. He didn't want to rejoin the Organization, obviously, but he had little reason to avoid being taken in when that meant he'd get a perfect shot at Xemnas)

Considering he doesn't even remember wanting to fight Xenmas. Then No. You're just trying to give more and more excuses to Axel.

Besides, Axel kidnapping Kairi to force Sora back into a Heartless just doesn't fit his character at all, especially the way he interacts with Sora. He apologizes to Sora for kidnapping and losing Kairi - but that makes no sense if he wants to turn Sora into a Heartless.

He apologizes on his death bed, and to me he wasn't apologizing for kidnapping Kairi for his own plans, but more like he was apologizing for letting Saix take her. Him wanting to turn Sora into a heartless to get Roxas back is not out of character at all. He was obsessed with him. Getting him back by any means necessary is definitely in Axel's character.

What I am trying to say is that, if we're going to stick Axel into a category, it'd be better to stick him in with Riku than with Xemnas. They both did really bad things early on, and are still willing to do bad things (like, say, kidnapping) out of desperation to fix their friends - but if they weren't in such crazy circumstances, they'd probably both be fun to hang around with.

I don't recall considering any of the organization to be on par, that includes Axel, with Xenmas's evil. Wanting their hearts back but being selfish and cruel to get them vs wanting to take over the universe one heart at a time. It seems like a no brainier who is truly evil here. What I'm saying here is I just wish the draco and leather pantsing of Axel would stop. Him finally doing some good at the end of his life does not excuse the cruel/selfish things he did before then to his friends and his comrades. I mean every-time I see a is the organization good/bad topic, be it here or any other Kh fan-site, Roxas,Namine,and now Xion, and Axel are always on the good side,and I'm always like w.t.f is Axel doing there? He should be right over there with the rest of the org.

If he wasn't involved with the Organization, he'd probably turn completely into the friendly big brother figure he is when he's around Roxas and Xion. (Note that I can very easily see Demyx and Luxord being the same way, though neither of them get much of a chance to show what that other side would be like)

I'm willing to bet that if any of the members weren't under Xenmas thumb, and his nonsense, that neither of them would be as bad as they are.

We're just not going to agree on Axel. You're going to keep thinking Axel is a good person, and I'm going to keep thinking he's not, and is just an anti-hero,but this debate has been fun regardless. :)
 
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Reverie

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Seeing how the Organization members are Nobodies, I can really only say that they likely the opposite of their Nobodies. I even tend to think sometimes that they're not that bad.
 

ColdRoxas

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Yeah, SE should of put some more emphasis on the "Evil" category in Org XIII, and how bad it would be if Sora and Co. didn't stop them. Who knows what Xemnas would've done after he gained immense power from Kingdom Hearts.
 

Naximi

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They just wanted to be whole and tried to create a Kingdom Hearts. All they had to do was create some heartless and kill some people and create dark emotions in others' hearts. They might have known it was bad, but they didn't feel it was bad. So I see them as accidental bad guys.
 

Tatsu

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Most except Demyx and Luxord were devious. Im pretty sure Roxas was going to kill them all even if he wasnt in Sora. Saix and Xemnas were definitely the top picks on his list.
 

Ikkin

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I'm still not following you. By your logic the whole organization shouldn't be blamed at all for their actions either.However we both know that's absurd right? Screwed morality or not Axel, as well as the rest of the organization, remembers what it was like to be human. So they definitely knew right from wrong. I mean that's like saying someone with a split personality,a good side and a bad side,shouldn't be held responsibility for what the bad side did. The hypocrisy in your logic.. I just... It's like your saying since it's Axel, everybody's favorite flame-haired pedo, that his horrible deeds are excused because he's a nobody, but the organization, who are in the same nobody boat as him, get painted THE EVIL. Yea.. Not following.

One more thing it's said that Axel was beginning to feel like a human by being with Roxas before he went to castle Oblivion and then by Sora while he was there. Then that means when Axel was using everybody in the castle as his own personal playthings, killing his own comrades sadistically, making bets on which one would die next with Zexion etc he had more of a conscience then anybody in the organization. Think about that.

I think you might have missed my point.

Organization members remember what it's like to be human. Therefore, they can be held as responsible as a human would when dealing with ordinary people because, lack of emotions or not, they still have the intellectual capacity to understand why it's wrong and they shouldn't be doing it.

However, none of them ever had any experience with Nobodies until they were turned into Nobodies themselves. Therefore, they never would have had the opportunity to develop any ideas about what's "right" or "wrong" to do to a Nobody until it was effectively too late.

If Axel had done the same thing to a real human that he did to Vexen, he'd definitely be evil. But, with Vexen himself, it's more hazy - after all, from what Axel's been told, Vexen is only "pretending" that he's petrified of dying.

Axel's evil actions are, almost in their entirety, done towards other Nobodies. Since even Sora doesn't think much about killing Nobodies until Axel dies - he's picking fights with them in KH2 before he even sees them do anything - I think there's a limit on how much Axel's actions reflect on his actual character.


Er... If we didn't apply real life equivalency to the organization then why are we having this conversation? I mean in real life we would peg the organization as a pack of horrible people, and would demand justice for what they did. It's our real life sense of morality that causes us to even say that about them. Yet you say we shouldn't use real life to judge them? It just seems like you're trying to erase Axel's misdeeds because he's a bishie as well as friends with Roxas. Basically draco and leather pantsing him.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was, you can't apply morality intended to deal with actions taken towards real people to actions taken towards Nobodies, because Nobodies differ in some significant ways.

And I think that would be true if they were placed into reality. We'd judge them as horrible people because of their actions towards real people, and demand justice for that. There's not much incentive to demand justice for what they did to each other.

As for the Draco in Leather Pants claim - Axel was created with Leather Pants. He's supposed to be sympathetic, and the entire point of his character is lost if he's not. I like him just the way he is, misdeeds and all. I just don't think they're as unforgivable as you seem to think they are.


My God. Please tell me what you do consider evil. I mean in your book what does someone have to do to finally have that label slapped on them.

I 'm so glad you brought Riku up.In my book Kh1 Riku was definitely evil. He destroyed his home. A whole island got wiped out, and the heartless had them a fine dinner I'm sure with the people of that that island. Another consequence is one of his best friend's heart got taken and the other barely escaped to another world with his life. He deliberately gave up to the darkness. He deliberately helped Maleficent. He deliberately let Xehnaort's heartless take over his body. He tried to kill his best friend on more than one occasion. He deliberately kept Kairi from Sora. He was horrible to Beast. He took Sora's keyblade and his friends to the point that we learned from Days, through Roxas, Sora cried etc.

Evil is an absolute term that should not, under normal circumstances, be applied to people, because they're too complicated for that. It's a term that's much more fair to apply to actions, because they're relatively simple.

All you proved in your Riku example is that Riku did evil things. This does not make Riku an evil person, because there has always been more to Riku than that.

Do you understand what I mean now?


Considering the disgusted face Sora made when Axel did that to Vexen I'm pretty sure it wasn't for Sora's benefit, but for his. Axel enjoyed what he did to Vexen and Zexion if the sadistic smile on his face didn't clue you in.

By "Sora's benefit" I didn't mean "to make Sora happy" or anything like that. -_- What I meant was, Axel was putting on an act to draw out a reaction from Sora. From the Secret Reports, it seems that Axel would have preferred if he didn't have to kill Vexen, after all.


Hmm the report was really blatant without any room for interpretation about the Riku replica. He knew it was it's on person. Like I said he didn't care until he made friends with one, and then it was like Opps. Maybe I can see that because I'm not wearing Axel is a good boy fan goggles.

He said "Riku-Replica was a tool." That doesn't sound like he thought of it as a person.


Never said Axel 's friendship overall with Roxas wasn't real. Never even implied it. What I'm saying is that there was a undercurrent of obsession on Axel's part of that friendship. Roxas made him feel like he had a heart, something that a nobody longs to have, so he kept that drug near him even if it meant being selfish and lying and keeping a human being from waking.

You're still turning their friendship into something destructive and wrong, though. The very existence of 358/2 Days is proof that Axel is supposed to be interpreted more charitably.

Axel is, quite simply, the Nobody counterpart of KH2 Riku - they both represent the darker aspects of acting to protect something that one cannot bear losing, and they do a lot of the same things for the same reason. But that parallel is completely destroyed if you insist that Axel is acting on an ulterior motive.


Walking unknowingly to his doom? So rejoining his other, being human, being whole, is dooming him is it? I could have sworn that is what all nobodies wanted,and Roxas got that. While I feel for Roxas since he wanted so bad to be his on person the fact of the matter is he isn't and never was. He belongs with Sora. The human.

You don't get to do this.

You don't get to say, on one hand, that Axel is bad for trying to take Roxas back against his will, and then say on the other that it's perfectly okay to force Roxas back into Sora against his will.

The implications of what you're saying here are much larger than you seem to think. You're basically saying that Nobodies have no right to exist. Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with killing them, since that means their Others can come back.

Well, look at that. Axel was actually doing Vexen and Zexion a favor. -_-


Considering he doesn't even remember wanting to fight Xenmas. Then No. You're just trying to give more and more excuses to Axel.

Well, I'd imagine Axel thought they'd fix Roxas if he brought him back. But, yeah, using potential futures as justification doesn't do much good.

Then again, I don't need it. Roxas had everything he cared about replaced with lies, and was basically brainwashed into defending those lies. I really don't see how you can blame Axel for wanting to reverse that.


He apologizes on his death bed, and to me he wasn't apologizing for kidnapping Kairi for his own plans, but more like he was apologizing for letting Saix take her. Him wanting to turn Sora into a heartless to get Roxas back is not out of character at all. He was obsessed with him. Getting him back by any means necessary is definitely in Axel's character.

I wouldn't have used it as part of my argument if that was all it was. -_-

Axel started to apologize the first time at the Battle of Hollow Bastion, at which point he most certainly wasn't dying - and at which point he had nothing to gain by telling Sora he was sorry about Kairi.

And it's not so much that Axel isn't the type to get Roxas back by all means necessary - it's more that, once Roxas returns to Sora, Axel doesn't act like someone who's obsessed with getting Roxas back at all costs. Obsession is driven and impassioned, but, apart from the prologue, Axel is not. He's unsure of what to do and lacks any real sense of direction, to the point where he winds up in The World That Never Was despite being on the run from the Organization. The best illustration of that, of course, is this scene - "[places to belong] don't exist to guys like us."

Axel's final stand in Betwixt and Between isn't some random switch to the good side (as it would have to be, if Axel was intending to turn Sora into a Heartless the rest of the game). It's a last-ditch effort to see a friend one last time by a man who's already lost everything else. Axel never could have reached such a state so quickly if he'd been focused obsessively on a goal up until that point.


I don't recall considering any of the organization to be on par, that includes Axel, with Xenmas's evil. Wanting their hearts back but being selfish and cruel to get them vs wanting to take over the universe one heart at a time. It seems like a no brainier who is truly evil here. What I'm saying here is I just wish the draco and leather pantsing of Axel would stop. Him finally doing some good at the end of his life does not excuse the cruel/selfish things he did before then to his friends and his comrades. I mean every-time I see a is the organization good/bad topic, be it here or any other Kh fan-site, Roxas,Namine,and now Xion, and Axel are always on the good side,and I'm always like w.t.f is Axel doing there? He should be right over there with the rest of the org.

Well, the Xemnas bit is fair.

But I don't see why it'd be anywhere near unusual that Axel would end up over on the side where all his friends are. He's likable, has a ton of character development, and clearly seems to have gained something that the rest of the Organization lacked. Unlike the other members, it's impossible to reduce him to simple absolutes without losing what makes him Axel.


I'm willing to bet that if any of the members weren't under Xenmas thumb, and his nonsense, that neither of them would be as bad as they are.

Heh, this is true. Bad leaders can get even good people to do terrible things. Adding Nobodies to the mix just makes it even worse.
 

Kiwise

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Xaldin was trying to turn Beast into a Heartless, but didn't succeed (obviously). That could have been something Xaldin decided to do for himself, though, considering the fact that Roxas got sent after him when he didn't RTC on time.

Xigbar turned a dragon from The Land of Dragons into a Heartless, so that Sora would have to fight it. Another Organization member (identity unknown) intended to turn Jafar into a Heartless for the same purpose, but never seemed to have actually gotten around to Heartlessifying him before Sora took him out.

Examples do help, thanks.

Xigbar, Zexion, Lexaeus, and Vexen are actually some of the easiest to classify as evil, since they were involved in Xehanort's terrible experiments even before they lost their hearts. The first six had definitely turned people into Heartless intentionally, out of intellectual curiosity.

So says DiZ. DiZ is not exactly the most trustworthy in this case.

Zexion's list of crimes includes attempting to drive Riku to despair to make him easier to kill, which is pretty heinous.

Wasn't aware of that. Do you have a quote from the game?

Vexen's got some extra acts of evil, too, since he's the one who remains the most involved in direct experimentation (with dissection being mentioned as one of the things he likes doing). Just think for a moment about what it would take to dissect a Heartless or Nobody without it fading away. >_>

Got me there. I'm not convinced with Xigbar or Lexaeus, though.
 
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