Is Kairi a "mary-sue"?

[Sephiroth0812]

That definition is all fine and dandy, but the bigger problem is nowadays in the internet and fandom as a whole "Mary Sue"(and "Gary Stu", which is the male variant) as a term has become a generalized way to designate any character disliked for some reasons.

The inflatory use of it has made it almost meaningless in its original form as most characters labeled a Mary Sue/Gary Stu these days actually do not deserve/fit that label despite possibly having one or two sueish traits.

A character who is merely very popular among the majority of the in-universe cast or often selflessly helping others is not a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, but labeled as such by detractors of said character who for some, often shallow reasons, dislike the character.

 

[Kounelli]

This is silly, because everyone has a different idea of what Kairi's purpose should be. I always thought Kairi had profound developments despite the small time. In KHI, she is immature (in a child-like way), insecure (wanting to leave Riku behind and go with Sora), and sensitive. In KHII, she is determined, recognizes her flaws, and fights her way to the people she loves. She brings Sora and Riku together instead of replicating her actions in the first game, and is wise enough to understand how the world works and how her relationships with her friends can still have power despite being apart. In the first game, she wanted to go with Sora, and fight alongside him, and only backed down when Sora brought up her lack of abilities. In the BBS point blank scene, she gives Sora the charm as a statement of understanding, and then found her way to Yen Sid so that she can train. She wants to train, she wants to get better, and she wants to support her friends.

How much more does she need for her character to be understood? Some say that she needs to be more of a fighter (which is asinine, female characters shouldn't have to hold up a sword in order to be well-written, or kick ass in order to be deemed important). I have seen too many people say "Aqua is the only good female character cuz she fights!" for this concept to just leave a bad taste in my mouth. Kairi definitely needs more screen-time, but not because she has NOTHING (which is silly), but because she has interesting qualities and growth that could make the story more interesting. Of course, she shouldn't take much of the spotlight, as she is a supporting character, but just enough of a role for her character to leave an impact.

She has done wonderful so far in her role as a supporting character, and am excited to see her role and character grow alongside Sora and Riku as a full fledged protagonist in future games.

 

[Muke]

See. She has no screen time = her little developement she gets get overshadowed by, like, everyone. Even DG have more Character Developement at this point.

I never said she needed a sword to be a well written character, but it's just fact that, now that she has a Keyblade and was teased in DDD, she will get more screen time. Because of the sword. Unfortunately, that's apparently the way in KH.

She was wonderful as supporting character? Being in a coma, in a cage and... not around is 'supporting'?

 

[hemmoheikkinen]

That definition is all fine and dandy, but the bigger problem is nowadays in the internet and fandom as a whole "Mary Sue"(and "Gary Stu", which is the male variant) as a term has become a generalized way to designate any character disliked for some reasons.

The inflatory use of it has made it almost meaningless in its original form as most characters labeled a Mary Sue/Gary Stu these days actually do not deserve/fit that label despite possibly having one or two sueish traits.

A character who is merely very popular among the majority of the in-universe cast or often selflessly helping others is not a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, but labeled as such by detractors of said character who for some, often shallow reasons, dislike the character.

I agree. Now days if I even see the term mary-sue mentioned anywhere I feel like something is going to snap in my head.

 

[BufferAqua]

Hmm, let's go to the Sue dictionary to describe what kind of Mary Sue Kairi is. The many different types of Mary Sue | OngoingWorlds roleplay blog

Welp, I've got nothing. Kairi hasn't got development as a character to even be a kind of Sue. It's basically what Muke said.

 

[Kounelli]

@Muke
Sorry I wasn't referring to you but directed at previous debates that I have seen over the internet. Especially on places like deviant art, it is a common thing I have seen over the years.

Yes it is a supporting character in the sense of writing, (the various Disney characters are supporting, some of the FF characters are supporting, regardless of their time with the protag or not). It typically goes: Protag, Secondary, Supporting, Background. Kairi has way more presence than a background character, but less than a secondary, so she is a supporting character.

She wasn't just in a coma or in a cage, I am sorry you experienced her character that way. She played with the boys growing up, inspired them to travel, could sense darkness, had private conversations with Sora (including their time in the secret cave with the drawings), shared a lucky charm with Sora, connected with Roxas, brought Sora back from the dead, among a few things. We see that she can have relationships with other characters such as Selphie, can tell she goes to school, can see her desire to remember Sora, her willingness to help, her refusal to be fooled by Axel, she can't be touched by darkness, she was the first to see Riku, she helped Sora see Riku, she connected with Namine, and we can see her devotion as she does not want to leave either of the boy's sides. It is her letter that inspires Sora and Riku so that they can see the door back home, and it is Kairi that welcomes them when they finally reach the islands.

I wouldn't say that's a completely non-character with absolutely no grounds in the game and that has no connection to the main characters or is not supporting.

EDIT: And I am aware that Kairi has been receiving more positive reception lately because she can have a keyblade. That was my original point, I think people forget that characters can bring something interesting to a series, despite not being able to fight. People forget what Kairi has done in previous games, and do not deem them important at all. When in fact, there were a few things that did bring her character to the surface, that did not include fighting.

 

[Muke]

Hmm, let's go to the Sue dictionary to describe what kind of Mary Sue Kairi is. The many different types of Mary Sue | OngoingWorlds roleplay blog

Welp, I've got nothing. Kairi hasn't got development as a character to even be a kind of Sue. It's basically what Muke said.

8D

@Muke
Sorry I wasn't referring to you but directed at previous debates that I have seen over the internet. Especially on places like deviant art, it is a common thing I have seen over the years.

Yes it is a supporting character in the sense of writing, (the various Disney characters are supporting, some of the FF characters are supporting, regardless of their time with the protag or not). It typically goes: Protag, Secondary, Supporting, Background. Kairi has way more presence than a background character, but less than a secondary, so she is a supporting character.

She wasn't just in a coma or in a cage, I am sorry you experienced her character that way. She played with the boys growing up, inspired them to travel, could sense darkness, had private conversations with Sora (including their time in the secret cave with the drawings), shared a lucky charm with Sora, connected with Roxas, brought Sora back from the dead, among a few things. We see that she can have relationships with other characters such as Selphie, can tell she goes to school, can see her desire to remember Sora, her willingness to help, her refusal to be fooled by Axel, she can't be touched by darkness, she was the first to see Riku, she helped Sora see Riku, she connected with Namine, and we can see her devotion as she does not want to leave either of the boy's sides. It is her letter that inspires Sora and Riku so that they can see the door back home, and it is Kairi that welcomes them when they finally reach the islands.

I wouldn't say that's a completely non-character with absolutely no grounds in the game and that has no connection to the main characters or is not supporting.

EDIT: And I am aware that Kairi has been receiving more positive reception lately because she can have a keyblade. That was my original point, I think people forget that characters can bring something interesting to a series, despite not being able to fight. People forget what Kairi has done in previous games, and do not deem them important at all. When in fact, there were a few things that did bring her character to the surface, that did not include fighting.

As I said, people forget her character because she has so little screen time that it actually gets overshadowed by everyone else.

I am sorry, but aren't KH1 and 2 (&BBS but only briefly), like, the only game she even plays a (little) role in? All those things you have listed happened in KH1 and 2, and they got overshadowed by everything and everyone else. Just take a look at all the stuff Donald and Goofy have done. Even Minnie has more character than Kairi at this point, and Minnie is as plain as it gets already....

Like, I truly am sorry, but the only real way to make Kairi even relevant is to make her a Keyblade Wielder. There was no way around it.

 

[Elysium]

Well, a Mary Sue is usually very important to the plot and the hero and bla bla, but the only thing Kairi really lacks for that is screen time.
She's a princess of heart and keyblade wielder, somehow the "closest person to Sora" even though we never see much of her, she's portrayed as one of the main reason Sora and Riku's friendship almost ends in KH1, she has magic mumbo jumbo powers to turn heartless back to humans...
There is potential for being a Mary Sue at least... xD

Wow, I never really thought about it until you laid it all out like that... She definitely would be a Mary Sue if they had bothered to give her screentime. Thankfully she's more of a prop.

 

[VoidGear.]

Like, I truly am sorry, but the only real way to make Kairi even relevant is to make her a Keyblade Wielder. There was no way around it.

Or, like, maybe make her relevant in another kind of way like for example leading the princesses of heart to safety in KH3 in case Xehanort tries to use them as substitutes for a guardian of light? She wouldn't need a keyblade for that.
The last thing we needed were more keyblade wielders, but apparently, a character can't be important without it in Nomura's eyes.

 

[Kounelli]

Not necessarily, her purpose was not entirely meant for the role that many of the protagonists had been able to accomplish. Everything and everyone else, is a vague concept and I can only assume you mean Sora, Riku, BBS Trio, Days Trio, and Mickey, which were the protags in their respective games (Mickey having more of a role in coded with helping data Sora and Riku).

Kairi was fine where she was as the supporting character, and what she did were important moments for the only two main games in the entire series. Is it really that troublesome that she wasn't seen much apart from her foreshadowed role as a more developed keyblade wielder in the side game DDD for example? Does the events that happen to the protags (which makes sense, because they are the protags), really make us forget that Kairi was the catalyst for Sora and Riku? That she saved Sora from darkness? Or that she was the only one to make Sora see Riku's true self (plus all that I mentioned above)? Do people not even acknowledge that she is the writer for one of the most memorable quote's in the game, "We share the same sky, one sky, one destiny"?

How are all of these events (and stuff I did not even mention) not relevant to the games, and why is it that now that Kairi has a keyblade that they now say "Oh wow Kairi actually did something"? The bigger stuff that has more impact on the plot will always be more important, but does not erase what was there for Kairi at all.

(btw I am sorry if I sound frustrated or if I am attacking you, I'm actually not, I just like asking questions and learning people's thought processes since you've experienced the game differently from me ^^)

Edit:

Thankfully she's more of a prop

lol that's great.

 

[VoidGear.]

Is it really that troublesome that she wasn't seen much apart from her foreshadowed role as a more developed keyblade wielder in the side game DDD for example?

Yes.

Does the events that happen to the protags (which makes sense, because they are the protags), really make us forget that Kairi was the catalyst for Sora and Riku?

She's supposed to be a protagonist, too, not just a catalyst. They're supposed to be a trio, not two protags with a female semi-sidekick.

How are all of these events (and stuff I did not even mention) not relevant to the games, and why is it that now that Kairi has a keyblade that they now say "Oh wow Kairi actually did something"? The bigger stuff that has more impact on the plot will always be more important, but does not erase what was there for Kairi at all.

Because there is a big difference between showing and telling. Most important stuff about Kairi in the games is told in flashbacks, memories or scenes where the player is not even around. There's close to no interaction between Kairi and other characters. We have no idea what she thinks about everything that's going on.

Btw, you should reply with quotes because I seriously don't even know who you were answering to. Probably Muke? xD

 

[Muke]

Or, like, maybe make her relevant in another kind of way like for example leading the princesses of heart to safety in KH3 in case Xehanort tries to use them as substitutes for a guardian of light? She wouldn't need a keyblade for that.
The last thing we needed were more keyblade wielders, but apparently, a character can't be important without it in Nomura's eyes.

Yup, as I said, in KH, there is no other way to make a character plot-relevant without giving them a Keyblade. They can hardly push Donald and Goofy!

Kairi was fine where she was as the supporting character

Definitely not. I forgot millions of times as a kid that this "Kairi" even existed.

and what she did were important moments for the only two main games in the entire series.

But KH1 and 2 aren't the only main games. So are BBS and DDD, what did she do in those? Right, nothing. (though, I admit, nobody did anything in BBS other than being too stupid).

Is it really that troublesome that she wasn't seen much apart from her foreshadowed role as a more developed keyblade wielder in the side game DDD for example?

Again, DDD is not a side game. And yes, it definitely is. She is part of the main trio, the trio we all got to see first. And her being the only one out of that trio to do NOTHING is really a shame. Hell, even Xion has more screentime and developement than her! And she only is in one game!

Does the events that happen to the protags really make us forget that Kairi was the catalyst for Sora and Riku? That she saved Sora from darkness? Or that she was the only one to make Sora see Riku's true self (plus all that I mentioned above)? Do people not even acknowledge that she is the writer for one of the most memorable quote's in the game, "We share the same sky, one sky, one destiny"

I said those moments get overshadowed easily. It just feels so… not-special-at-all to me kinda. Compared to other characters, I cannot fully acknowledge anything she does.

How are all of these events (and stuff I did not even mention) not relevant to the games, and why is it that now that Kairi has a keyblade that they now say "Oh wow Kairi actually did something"? The bigger stuff that has more impact on the plot will always be more important, but does not erase what was there for Kairi at all.

I never said so.

(btw I am sorry if I sound frustrated or if I am attacking you, I'm actually not, I just like asking questions and learning people's thought processes since you've experienced the game differently from me ^^)

It's completely fine, I like these types of discussions.

 

[kirabook]

I don't think there are any true Mary or Gary Sue's in KH to be honest. You start off at 0 and grind to 100. Unless Kairi is suddenly the solution to all issues and she saves the universe suddenly with a wave of her hand and no one seems surprised by that then.. ok. Mary Sue potential.

Not only will Kairi probably not be portrayed as equally powerful as say, Sora (or Aqua), she probably won't be a major key to defeating the villain unless she's included with the rest of the princesses. Nomura, whether intentionally or not, has yet to put Kairi above the other princesses in terms of power or even importance to the villain. Well, except wielding a keyblade, that's really it.

I'm sure people will rush in saying Kairi can't possibly be able to fight at all by the time KH3 comes around, but I think it's reasonable that she'll be somewhat proficient. Again, not Sora and Riku levels. We've never seen her sparing with them, only racing and she always trailed behind. But, she'll be able to fight I"m sure. That does not make her a Mary Sue.

Kairi is never going to be able to become a character like that in this fanbase. Too many people hate her for dumb reasons, therefore, she's not popular like Lea/Axel and others that would make her a character like that

 

[BufferAqua]

Kairi is never going to be able to become a character like that in this fanbase. Too many people hate her for dumb reasons, therefore, she's not popular like Lea/Axel and others that would make her a character like that

I don't hate Kairi nor do I think she's a Mary Sue, instead I just feel kind of bad for her poor development as of this far.

 

[Kounelli]

I wish to apologize for my lack of quotations, I didn't think anyone was going to be posting in between me and Muke and thought my posts would just go right underneath his xD

VOIDGEAR FIRST:

Yes.

Why? What more could have been done? We've seen her how she got to destiny islands origin story in BBS, and while they are flashbacks (pretty much everyone was a flashback), we saw a snippet of her in DDD with the Aqua/Kairi role foreshadow, and confirmed that she is the most important person to Sora in CoM (CoM was a mess though let's admit that).

She's supposed to be a protagonist, too, not just a catalyst. They're supposed to be a trio, not two protags with a female semi-sidekick.

Ehhhh they are a trio yes but I don't see a rule anywhere that suggests that Kairi's role in the games up until now needed to be on par with Sora and Riku. Then the whole story would have changed wouldn't it?

Because there is a big difference between showing and telling. Most important stuff about Kairi in the games is told in flashbacks, memories or scenes where the player is not even around. There's close to no interaction between Kairi and other characters. We have no idea what she thinks about everything that's going on.

A lot of the stuff I listed were shown in game. They may not be in depth with the plot, but they are relevant to Kairi's relationships with Sora and Riku. The stuff that was told that is relevant to Kairi's character was pretty much in CoM and DDD, as she was there during BBS. I always agreed that her time was small, but still important.

Now Muke!

Definitely not. I forgot millions of times as a kid that this "Kairi" even existed.

Not me, I remember tearing up when Kairi woke up and saw Sora disappear ;w;

]But KH1 and 2 aren't the only main games. So are BBS and DDD, what did she do in those? Right, nothing. (though, I admit, nobody did anything in BBS other than being too stupid).

You are correct, I should have clarified further that manufacturing wise, KHI and II are the only main console games and thus were able to contain more content. BBS and Days were a bit smaller games, and their platforms could only hold so much information, so less, more confined story content meant to develop outside plot that will reinforce ideas in KHIII. Which is why I don't find a problem making Kairi more prominent as it was not meant for her entirely.

Again, DDD is not a side game. And yes, it definitely is. She is part of the main trio, the trio we all got to see first. And her being the only one out of that trio to do NOTHING is really a shame. Hell, even Xion has more screentime and developement than her! And she only is in one game!

See above about the game, and my response to VoidGear about the trio thing.

But Kairi did do something, otherwise I wouldn't be able to list anything!

Does Xion really count though? Technically she is another version of Sora, and everyone sees her differently (Xigbar saw Ventus, not Xion etc.) So it would make sense for her to develop as the story pretty much revolved around her. And besides knowing that she was yearning to be somebody, be Roxas' and Axel's friend, and return to Sora...what else was there? Is she really that good of a comparison? I would say that Xion is a good example of screen time /= development. Just because she is there more often doesn't mean we get to know her on a deeper level apart from moving the plot and helping Roxas discover the secrets. I would say Namine wins in terms of beating Kairi, and is a much better comparison. What do you think?

I said those moments get overshadowed easily. It just feels so… not-special-at-all to me kinda. Compared to other characters, I cannot fully acknowledge anything she does.

I don't know about this...I still can't see how everything else can take a player away from Kairi's letter, the very thing that helps market the franchise among the fandom (you know how many gif sets I've seen of that, and Sora's memory speech? A lot!) I can only attribute this thought process to personal choice and taste, based on your experiences in the game. Which is cool ^^

I never said so.

Sorry I generalized again ^^;

It's something I see floating around the internet, if you look at some youtube videos of the DDD secret scene you may come across some of it.

And I do not mean that Kairi shouldn't be given a key blade or that she can do just fine on her own. I meant that for her role in the story as a non-fighting supporting character, she did fine and did many things that were relevant at the time. Now that she is being more involved, she's going to have to wield a keyblade, otherwise there won't be much use for her. Hell, they even did that with Axel. No point in bringing him back unless he can aid in the battle. I just don't agree with people when they say that Kairi was never an actual character (or a prop like come on), or that her interactions ALTHOUGH SMALL, held no importance to some of the characters in the game or the plot. That's just false, and I already listed what interactions were important despite being overshadowed.

has yet to put Kairi above the other princesses in terms of power

I think so, I haven't seen any other princess able to bring back someone from being a heartless.

Kairi is never going to be able to become a character like that in this fanbase. Too many people hate her for dumb reasons, therefore, she's not popular like Lea/Axel and others that would make her a character like that

Actually, from all my years knowing the fandom I would say the hate has definitely died down. I remember when people were drawing kill art and writing soriku fanfictions of one the boys killing her or whatever. Dark times. I haven't seen too much of that lately. Just valid criticisms and hopes for her future character development.

 

[Luxu]

Kairi is not a Mary-Sue and never will be, unless she somehow excels with the Keyblade. More so than Sora, Riku, Aqua, Terra, Ventus, etc. Who have reason for being as powerful as they are, this kinda leaves Kairi with nothing. Lets compare her to Riku and Sora real quick

Compared to those two, Kairi never really dealt with anything. She never had to battle the darkness (Like Riku), and never lost a part of herself (Like Sora). Point is, Kairi never faced any issues and is a flop of a character. That could have been great.

(Though Kairi is one of my favorite characters)

 

[DefiantHeart]

Hard to say like others have said in here. Kairi hasn't had as much screen time to really figure out her character as much as the others. I like her character mostly because the small parts that we do see of her, remind me of myself.