Is Kairi a "mary-sue"?
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Well...that escalated quickly.
@VoidGear Yeah, I was talking about all the teenagers in this series are good looking. Not the oldies. LOL.
I get where you're coming from with Sora, but I think the main problem when comparing him to Harry Potter is that we still saw Harry have emotion and get upset over things. The Order of the Phoenix is a good example of that, when he's angry about not being made a prefect and pretty much just furious about everything in that book (for good reason, and I know a lot of it was Voldermort, but still), even if he relied on people and was glad that he did.
Compare that to Sora, and you'll see that his reactions to everything are nearly perfect every time, even when you'd think the situation would call for him to emote more.
The fact that everything in this plot somehow ties back to Sora, and is about him now (also the everyone being Sora thing) also adds to his Mary-Sueness to me.
And the fact that Nomura tries so hard to make him seem like a normal boy (and I do understand the argument for that; I do), when really the narrative and people around him kind of portrays him as the exact opposite. As Roxas said, "Sora?! Enough about Sora!" LOL.
But back to the Sora Harry Potter comparison thing, if you don't think it's fair to compare KH to just Order of the Phoenix, how about to the Deathly Hallows? When Harry gets so convinced that they should go after the Deathly Hallows instead of the horcruxes, that he stupidly says Voldermort's name, which summoned the Death Eaters there, and took them to Malfoy Manor and that whole nightmare, etc.
That was obviously a mistake of Harry's that cost everyone badly. But I feel like Sora's never held accountable for his mistakes anymore:
Him deciding to ignore data!Roxas' warning and to remember the hurt, even though that'll lead to the darkness? Roxas eventually gives in to Sora's idea, thinking that Sora's learned how to deal with the "hurt", and that he'll just do what he wants to anyway.
data!Riku was also convinced that Sora would soak all the bad stuff up, "like a sponge", but then get rid of the darkness or whatever.
Who cares about the fact that both of them have legitimate ideas that this could end badly? Gosh darnit, if Sora thinks he can do this, and it's for the best, he obviously can handle it!
Even when that doesn't prove to be the case in DDD, and his chasing the dreams almost leads to his own destruction, I still don't even think he regretted it then.
I mean, granted, we don't get to see much of Sora or his psyche after this happens--and to put others first is just classic Sora--but I'd still like to see that his mistakes matter and him maybe realize he should've tried to go about saving everyone differently somehow.
Especially when he eventually realizes that if something had happened to him, there would've been no saving any of the lost ones then.
LOL. As for Aqua, I really don't think she's a Mary-Sue. (In fact, I probably wouldn't have even thought of that idea at all if Branden from Kingdom Hearts Union hadn't stated some of his issues with Aqua's character in a recent podcast, that I did have to somewhat agree with.) She's not a Mary-Sue, but--if not handled properly--I think she possibly could become one.
At the end of the day, even if what you listed above is "flaws of Aqua's" (and even that can be argued, because I played Aqua's story first and thought her being unsure about Terra was actually spot-on the right reaction... though she actually seems to spend most of her story being his personal cheerleader, though?), she was still "right", because if Terra hadn't put himself so close to the darkness--and if Ven had just gone home, and hadn't become strong enough to become Vanitas' equal--none of BbS' tragedy would've happened.
Edit: Actually, listening to it again, that whole speech of data!Riku's to data!Sora--about how he's like a sponge, and will suck up everything that happens to him and come out better for it, and maybe even make things in general better afterwards--is very Mary-Sue like, tbh:/
I get where you're coming from with Sora, but I think the main problem when comparing him to Harry Potter is that we still saw Harry have emotion and get upset over things. The Order of the Phoenix is a good example of that, when he's angry about not being made a prefect and pretty much just furious about everything in that book (for good reason, and I know a lot of it was Voldermort, but still), even if he relied on people and was glad that he did.
Compare that to Sora, and you'll see that his reactions to everything are nearly perfect every time, even when you'd think the situation would call for him to emote more.
The fact that everything in this plot somehow ties back to Sora, and is about him now (also the everyone being Sora thing) also adds to his Mary-Sueness to me.
And the fact that Nomura tries so hard to make him seem like a normal boy (and I do understand the argument for that; I do), when really the narrative and people around him kind of portrays him as the exact opposite. As Roxas said, "Sora?! Enough about Sora!" LOL.
But back to the Sora Harry Potter comparison thing, if you don't think it's fair to compare KH to just Order of the Phoenix, how about to the Deathly Hallows? When Harry gets so convinced that they should go after the Deathly Hallows instead of the horcruxes, that he stupidly says Voldermort's name, which summoned the Death Eaters there, and took them to Malfoy Manor and that whole nightmare, etc.
That was obviously a mistake of Harry's that cost everyone badly. But I feel like Sora's never held accountable for his mistakes anymore:
Him deciding to ignore data!Roxas' warning and to remember the hurt, even though that'll lead to the darkness? Roxas eventually gives in to Sora's idea, thinking that Sora's learned how to deal with the "hurt", and that he'll just do what he wants to anyway.
data!Riku was also convinced that Sora would soak all the bad stuff up, "like a sponge", but then get rid of the darkness or whatever.
Who cares about the fact that both of them have legitimate ideas that this could end badly? Gosh darnit, if Sora thinks he can do this, and it's for the best, he obviously can handle it!
Even when that doesn't prove to be the case in DDD, and his chasing the dreams almost leads to his own destruction, I still don't even think he regretted it then.
I mean, granted, we don't get to see much of Sora or his psyche after this happens--and to put others first is just classic Sora--but I'd still like to see that his mistakes matter and him maybe realize he should've tried to go about saving everyone differently somehow.
Especially when he eventually realizes that if something had happened to him, there would've been no saving any of the lost ones then.
LOL. As for Aqua, I really don't think she's a Mary-Sue. (In fact, I probably wouldn't have even thought of that idea at all if Branden from Kingdom Hearts Union hadn't stated some of his issues with Aqua's character in a recent podcast, that I did have to somewhat agree with.) She's not a Mary-Sue, but--if not handled properly--I think she possibly could become one.
At the end of the day, even if what you listed above is "flaws of Aqua's" (and even that can be argued, because I played Aqua's story first and thought her being unsure about Terra was actually spot-on the right reaction... though she actually seems to spend most of her story being his personal cheerleader, though?), she was still "right", because if Terra hadn't put himself so close to the darkness--and if Ven had just gone home, and hadn't become strong enough to become Vanitas' equal--none of BbS' tragedy would've happened.
Edit: Actually, listening to it again, that whole speech of data!Riku's to data!Sora--about how he's like a sponge, and will suck up everything that happens to him and come out better for it, and maybe even make things in general better afterwards--is very Mary-Sue like, tbh:/
I wasn't really trying to say Sora is completely as much a Gary Stu as is Harry Potter (or the other way around at that. Or anything.)
I just think that none of them were really strong without their friends.
I also have to agree that the focussing on Sora did get annoying after some time. Don't get me wrong, I loved Blank Points and I loved Re:Coded but this continuous "Sora"-saying of the characters was too much even to me. It's okay if he's the key - that's what he was supposed to be from KH1 on. But the kind of way is getting a little twisted if you ask me.
And even though Sora's outraging-scenes or scenes were he is sad or makes mistakes are few, we saw a lot of that in 3D with him almost falling victim to the darkness.
As for Aqua, I can't reaaally agree that none of BBS would've happened. Besides, the way she told Ventus to go home or the way she accused Terra of using darkness and failing their master's orders - even though she didn't even want to believe that herself in the beginning - was just as wrong to me as what the boys did. But that's an overall BBS problem. Talking things out instead of permanently running from each other could've spared aroun 90% of the drama going on in the game.
I just think that none of them were really strong without their friends.
I also have to agree that the focussing on Sora did get annoying after some time. Don't get me wrong, I loved Blank Points and I loved Re:Coded but this continuous "Sora"-saying of the characters was too much even to me. It's okay if he's the key - that's what he was supposed to be from KH1 on. But the kind of way is getting a little twisted if you ask me.
And even though Sora's outraging-scenes or scenes were he is sad or makes mistakes are few, we saw a lot of that in 3D with him almost falling victim to the darkness.
As for Aqua, I can't reaaally agree that none of BBS would've happened. Besides, the way she told Ventus to go home or the way she accused Terra of using darkness and failing their master's orders - even though she didn't even want to believe that herself in the beginning - was just as wrong to me as what the boys did. But that's an overall BBS problem. Talking things out instead of permanently running from each other could've spared aroun 90% of the drama going on in the game.
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Hm... I think the difference here between Sora and an actual Mary Sue is that even if he can sponge up all the bad stuff, it's still not easy and his success is never guaranteed. Case in point: Re:Coded and DDD, respectively. Heck, even in Re:Coded, he needed Mickey's help to deal with the dangerous memories, or he could've ended up as screwed up as DDD Sora.
I'd also argue that it might be difficult to gauge how much that incident in DDD affected Sora, given how the game ended shortly after he was awakened, and focused mostly on plot and other people rather than Sora himself. Who knows, maybe he has learned to approach this situation with more caution. ... Well, actually, I'm pretty sure he has, he seems to have taken X-free precautions with his new clothes.
Just to throw my own two cents in there, aside from the "special snowflake name & appearance" thing (because let's be honest, that applies to the entire cast), I think of a Mary Sue like an overpowered character in a New Game+ sort of situation; they know how to defeat any "challenge" they come across, and if knowledge doesn't work, they're OP enough to just force their way through. Of course they will always win; they're at such an advantage that the system is broken. But obviously, you can't attribute success to being a Mary Sue, or otherwise, there would be few heroes and protagonists who wouldn't be labeled as such.
On a side note, it feels like this thread is a testimony to how horribly underused and neglected Kairi is. This drifted from being about her from the get-go and now we're all talking about Sora again.
@BlackOsprey Yeah, as you pointed out, I really don't think it's fair to get into if Sora at the end of DDD is a Mary-Sue or not (because we barely got to see him at the end of the game, and he did seem to be faking his smile at the end there, maybe), but I'm just saying more that Sora is in danger of becoming a Mary-Sue in III if these things aren't handled properly. He also has some Sue-ish traits in general.
Fortunately, I do think that he'll hopefully be less like that in III (as he isn't wearing an X, as you also pointed out, is supposedly more mature in that game, etc.), so here's hoping that they will tread with caution and make a more realistic/grounded Sora.
@VoidGear I think it really comes down to opinion, honestly
And the order in which you played the stories. Because I played Aqua and Ventus' stories first, so until I got to Terra's arc I really thought he was at least as bad as KHI Riku had been (who kidnapped Jasmine and that kind of thing), so I could completely understand where she was coming from in the "Walls of the Heart" scene. It wasn't until I played Terra's game that I was like, "Wait... He did absolutely nothing wrong, really. The villains were just misleading us, and Snow White and the dwarfs jumped to the wrong conclusions, etc."
I also feel like Aqua in that scene just had all her concerned emotions pour out at the wrong time, unfortunately, creating a mess that shouldn't have even happened (as otherwise she was always confident in Terra, and had before told Ven that Terra would never hurt anybody).
And speaking of which, "Walls of the Heart" doesn't make sense to me anymore, because Aqua was always seeming confident about Terra and hearing some good things about him, so why suddenly is she so sure he's up to no good in just that one scene?
And Ven had been the one to doubt him earlier, and hear some bad stuff about him, so why is he jumping down Aqua's throat for expressing what he himself had earlier?
Honestly, I often wonder if it was meant to be Ven calling Terra out in the original "Walls of the Heart" script, but I'm getting way off topic now, so I'm going to shut up. LOL.
Fortunately, I do think that he'll hopefully be less like that in III (as he isn't wearing an X, as you also pointed out, is supposedly more mature in that game, etc.), so here's hoping that they will tread with caution and make a more realistic/grounded Sora.
@VoidGear I think it really comes down to opinion, honestly
And the order in which you played the stories. Because I played Aqua and Ventus' stories first, so until I got to Terra's arc I really thought he was at least as bad as KHI Riku had been (who kidnapped Jasmine and that kind of thing), so I could completely understand where she was coming from in the "Walls of the Heart" scene. It wasn't until I played Terra's game that I was like, "Wait... He did absolutely nothing wrong, really. The villains were just misleading us, and Snow White and the dwarfs jumped to the wrong conclusions, etc."I also feel like Aqua in that scene just had all her concerned emotions pour out at the wrong time, unfortunately, creating a mess that shouldn't have even happened (as otherwise she was always confident in Terra, and had before told Ven that Terra would never hurt anybody).
And speaking of which, "Walls of the Heart" doesn't make sense to me anymore, because Aqua was always seeming confident about Terra and hearing some good things about him, so why suddenly is she so sure he's up to no good in just that one scene?
And Ven had been the one to doubt him earlier, and hear some bad stuff about him, so why is he jumping down Aqua's throat for expressing what he himself had earlier?
Honestly, I often wonder if it was meant to be Ven calling Terra out in the original "Walls of the Heart" script, but I'm getting way off topic now, so I'm going to shut up. LOL.
#MakeKairiDoSomethingInKH3PleaseForTheLoveOfBruceWayneI'mBatman
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the biggest thing that makes sora a mary sue is that he is literally a self-insert into various disney stories and becomes crucial to their plots, lol. that's like, the only big thing imo
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I'm very tempted to say it's actualy another charater but I know better than to condemn this thread to hell by saying it.
I don't really think Aqua is one since although she's powerful, she does have some charater flaws, even if they're minor.
It's Xion.
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Thank you audo
If this thread goes to hell in arguments it wont be my fault. You now bear the cross.
Too late.
But she's not well liked even within her own game. She's far from powerful(save for she drains Roxas) and gets her ass handed a bunch of times. She hates asking for help but ends up receiving aid from her friends. Let's not forget the drama. Compared to Sora Xion had a more reasonable growth with "her" powers.
But she's not well liked even within her own game. She's far from powerful(save for she drains Roxas) and gets her ass handed a bunch of times. She hates asking for help but ends up receiving aid from her friends. Let's not forget the drama. Compared to Sora Xion had a more reasonable growth with "her" powers.
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Agreed. Although, I dont think Sora was a full mary sue in KH 1. He had some mary sue moments but overall his attitude didn't strike me as overly perfect. He seemed really determined to prove himself because no one believed he could've been the hero.
Sora's becomes a full mary sue in KH 2. He hasn't got a clue whats going on and yet he still somehow gets to the world that never was at the end.
I think King Mickey is the biggest mary sue in KH.
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I think Sora probably fits that category more than anyone not just Kairi. As much as I hate to admire it because sora is my favorite character always 😠And I love him
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I couldn't agree with you more. Now that I think about it. Mickey is the biggest Mary Sue indeed lol
Well, I would imagine (If Square plays their cards correctly) that Kairi is not a Mary Sue, but is one of the weaker Keyblade Wielders due to her not having any prior training, and that it could be said as a Princess of Heart. She is not made to wield one, but maybe her physical strikes are slow and extremely weak, but because of her power over light it can insta kill a Heartless. This would avoid the whole "Mary-Sue" thing but then again people would get pissed with that sort of idea.
Well, a Mary Sue is usually very important to the plot and the hero and bla bla, but the only thing Kairi really lacks for that is screen time.
She's a princess of heart and keyblade wielder, somehow the "closest person to Sora" even though we never see much of her, she's portrayed as one of the main reason Sora and Riku's friendship almost ends in KH1, she has magic mumbo jumbo powers to turn heartless back to humans...
There is potential for being a Mary Sue at least... xD
She's a princess of heart and keyblade wielder, somehow the "closest person to Sora" even though we never see much of her, she's portrayed as one of the main reason Sora and Riku's friendship almost ends in KH1, she has magic mumbo jumbo powers to turn heartless back to humans...
There is potential for being a Mary Sue at least... xD
There might be potential, but it is so slim that I don't even acknowledge it.
[FONT="] Mary Sue: female [/FONT]fanfiction[FONT="] character who is so perfect as to be annoying.[/FONT][FONT="] Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe.
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[FONT="] Mary Sue: female [/FONT]fanfiction[FONT="] character who is so perfect as to be annoying.[/FONT][FONT="] Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe.
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