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Is it wrong to critque the series so much?



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SuperNova

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I love KH but even I have criticisms about the series especially KH3 and how some of the fandom think KH2 is the end all be all of the games. Twitter is not the best place to have debates about something you love simply because it quickly turns into a street brawl on who has the hottest take.

Also if SE does make another KH mobile game, I just hope they don't follow the KHUX formula again because Dark Road tried and it failed.
 

Elysium

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I would just ignore people and say whatever you're going to say. People will find a reason to hate you no matter what you say or do, better to be hated for what you actually are. Twitter has definitely made things worse in all regards because people only ever hear what they agree with and it all becomes sort of a groupthink circle-jerk. I definitely wouldn't post there if you're looking for any kind of nuance.
 

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On the point of twitter, it's really not worthwhile to "pick a fight" there, not every tweet is an invitation for discussion but it's VERY difficult to tell. I rarely engage with KH discussion there anymore after really losing my head to it like last year. There are some gems but like other's have said, the whole point of twitter is to GOTCHA and while I enjoy doing that with things like football, cricket, even politics to an extent, I can't stand it when it comes to KH or other media because it's all rather subjective, and it quickly devolves into how many of your friends just flood mentions to back you vs the other person, it's not enjoyable.

While the "ganging up" aspect can happen on a forum it's a lot less likely, and forums are actually moderated so it's not just a free for all behind a supermarket between a bunch of nerds.
That's the thing for me, yeah. I was never trying to "pick a fight" with anyone and it was very hard to not come off that way honestly. Last thing I want to do is cause drama over a video games series. It really isn't that serious but I guess twitter is jist designed that. Toke me a minute to realize that.
 

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That's... what' I'm talking about.

While it's fact that we lived in an era where we can have AAA games on mobile, like the forementioned Genshin Impact have graphic that can give PS3 games a run for their money , as well gameplay complex enough for that, and other than that,we now can run PS2 emulator on phones. Nevermind you can also dock your phone to the monitor/keyboard and use it to replace the CPU.

But why, don't SE invest more into KHUX, in graphic or gameplay? You see, most mobile games are gachas, and there are two types of popular mobile gachas. First, that rides the coattails of the popular franchise it's based on, like the Dragon Ball or One Piece one. The second is the one that sells sex/waifu/husbando. Both types can net even MILLIONS OF DOLLARS with subpar gameplay, as long the fans is dedicated enough, the plot is good enough, or the waifu/husbando is titillating/interesting enough for them to whale. Why bother with extra graphic/asset/gameplay when illustrator and VA is all you need to get money? SE seem to be in ASSUMPTION KHUX is the first type, when it isn't as it's not as popular as it expected to be when it carries Disney AND SE name. Not helping is that, in gachas, many times you get to see your faves in dumb situation like new year, june wedding or interact with characterts from different game but same franchise and helps fleshes the character, other than giving them alternative design. But KHUX doesn't have this either, no. Did some Sora medals give us more lines or information about Sora? No. Before you say "oh but of course KHUX is first type, it's Disney and they are kiddie friendly", Twisted Wonderland exists and it proves to be successful at what it's supposed to do, draining horny fangirls' money through cute husbandos

And since KHUX is already proven to be not as successful as it should be ,why invest more in KHUX? Sure, SE CAN make new mobile game for KH . But other than the question will it sell or not and bring back their budget, do they have the manpower for it as they are focused on console game?

Other than SE themselves, you know despite mobile gaming decimates handheld consoles, mobile gamers are still treated as the pariah of the gaming community in the west. Doesn't matter if the game have better gameplay, lore or evne graphic than console games, or you have whale thousands of dollars into a mobile game, richer than the console gamers, people still think console game and by extension console gamers are superior than "trivial mobile games"

So it's both devs and fandom that stopped them to feel like mobile games worth it, I think.
I had this thought process as well until Genshin Impact came out and my immediate thought was "this is what KHUx and Dark Road should be" and I don't understand why it wasn't. I hated KH bring on handheld consoles because the its obviously a step down somewhat. It just didn't reach that point in advanced technology but now we have and Swaure didn't bother to do more with it when it came to Kingdom Hearts.

Like, maybe it is what you said that Sqaure thought it be the first of its kind and slapping the Sqaure Enix/Disney would be make it profitable in the end. We don't know the exact numbers but I think we could all tell it was losing steam and having Dark Road come out in the exact same way, never mind the fact that it's centering on a story that should've already been told was a big nail in that coffin. And, yeah, it also comes from how both devs and players view mobile games too

I honestly think mobile games need to get rid of gacha. I know for some strange reason, those practice thrive on modern consoles but honeslty, I think that stuff can become a turn off for a lot of players. Though to be fair, I don't know what the solution would be since that would be mean paying for the mobile like every other game. And besides games like OG final fantasy games, chrono trigger, etc that not an easy practice to adjust to when people already have a bad view on mobile even when they are free. Besides, online generally have in game purchases and stuff like that for items, so it would be hard to get rid of since I think of gamers are use to that now.

My problem generally with KHUx and Dark Road being entirely mobile is that it doesn't have to be. I'm not saying mobile are automatically bad and lesser tier and Geshin Impact shows that it doesn't have to be. But, personally speaking, I'm just of the opinion that KH games need to be on modern consoles to get the most attention. Because to me, KH being on handheld for the past decade, regardless of the capable hardware, held the series back from the culture eye.

KH Dark Road would've succeeded more if it was treated like a modern console games that came out before KH3. At the very least, its should've been KH3's prologue instead of a repeat of the Stain glass tutorial from KH1

KHUx would've been far better appreciated and received if it was treated like FF14. I know for a lot of people the gameplay both KHUx and DR is the biggest turn off.

That being said, again, GI proved that mobile game aren't a death sentence. You can have steller gameplay on mobile and be multi platform on all consoles. Doing what Genshin Impact did and being on multiple consoles would have worked and made them butt loads of cash but like Oracle said, for some reason, Sqaure likes to fuck themselves over for no reason. Maybe its to spend less money?

Or, honestly, it has to do with how they view Kingdom Hearts as a franchise and has been big problem with Sqaure development wise. Like, I noticed this when KH3 came out and though I enjoyed it, it was riddled with issues and was a big step down from the previous games (besides DDD, they are pretty much on the same level imo). And FF7R came out and it was the most polished, welll thought, heavily advertised video games I've ever seen. To be fair, FF7 is Sqaure's golden boy. So I'm not shocked it ges big money but Kingdom Hearts? I don't know, i just feel like they don't give it as much as it could? Maybe that's a little greedy and too simplistic to view it this way become companies have many reason to do what they do and its not like they don't treat Kingdom Hearts well enough to thrive, it'd be ridiculous to say they don't care but KH feels less respected by Sqaure. Maybe that's from the Disney side of things and how limited merchandising and all that leaves them to be less giving when it comes to Kingdom Hearts because they can't widely make money from it as much as they could? I don't know.

I just look at KHUx/Dark Road compared to FF7: The First Solider and I'm just like, "...huh. okay then"
 
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I don't mind doing friendly debates here, but nah. I rarely if ever get involved in intimate discussions on twitter. There just isn't enough room for that. I've done my best to stick to the original idea of a "tweet". Short, random, string of consciousness or art.

I mean think about it. You write out some well articulated comment, but realize you've surpassed the character limit by 15. You're forced to widdle down your words to the bare necessities which causes misunderstandings among other things. It's just like, what is the point?
Or, even better, you want to get your thoughts out properly and be understood on your position but a single tweet can't let you do that, so you make a thread and then you get accused of being a crazy person by the other side. That's fun lol
 

DraceEmpressa

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I had this thought process as well until Genshin Impact came out and my immediate thought was "this is what KHUx and Dark Road should be" and I don't understand why it wasn't. I hated KH bring on handheld consoles because the its obviously a step down somewhat. It just didn't reach that point in advanced technology but now we have and Swaure didn't bother to do more with it when it came to Kingdom Hearts.

Like, maybe it is what you said that Sqaure thought it be the first of its kind and slapping the Sqaure Enix/Disney would be make it profitable in the end. We don't know the exact numbers but I think we could all tell it was losing steam and having Dark Road come out in the exact same way, never mind the fact that it's centering on a story that should've already been told was a big nail in that coffin. And, yeah, it also comes from how both devs and players view mobile games too

I honestly think mobile games need to get rid of gacha. I know for some strange reason, those practice thrive on modern consoles but honeslty, I think that stuff can become a turn off for a lot of players. Though to be fair, I don't know what the solution would be since that would be mean paying for the mobile like every other game. And besides games like OG final fantasy games, chrono trigger, etc that not an easy practice to adjust to when people already have a bad view on mobile even when they are free. Besides, online generally have in game purchases and stuff like that for items, so it would be hard to get rid of since I think of gamers are use to that now.

My problem generally with KHUx and Dark Road being entirely mobile is that it doesn't have to be. I'm not saying mobile are automatically bad and lesser tier and Geshin Impact shows that it doesn't have to be. But, personally speaking, I'm just of the opinion that KH games need to be on modern consoles to get the most attention. Because to me, KH being on handheld for the past decade, regardless of the capable hardware, held the series back from the culture eye.

KH Dark Road would've succeeded more if it was treated like a modern console games that came out before KH3. At the very least, its should've been KH3's prologue instead of a repeat of the Stain glass tutorial from KH1

KHUx would've been far better appreciated and received if it was treated like FF14. I know for a lot of people the gameplay both KHUx and DR is the biggest turn off.

That being said, again, GI proved that mobile game aren't a death sentence. You can have steller gameplay on mobile and be multi platform on all consoles. Doing what Genshin Impact did and being on multiple consoles would have worked and made them butt loads of cash but like Oracle said, for some reason, Sqaure likes to fuck themselves over for no reason. Maybe its to spend less money?

Or, honestly, it has to do with how they view Kingdom Hearts as a franchise and has been big problem with Sqaure development wise. Like, I noticed this when KH3 came out and though I enjoyed it, it was riddled with issues and was a big step down from the previous games (besides DDD, they are pretty much on the same level imo). And FF7R came out and it was the most polished, welll thought, heavily advertised video games I've ever seen. To be fair, FF7 is Sqaure's golden boy. So I'm not shocked it ges big money but Kingdom Hearts? I don't know, i just feel like they don't give it as much as it could? Maybe that's a little greedy and too simplistic to view it this way become companies have many reason to do what they do and its not like they don't treat Kingdom Hearts well enough to thrive, it'd be ridiculous to say they don't care but KH feels less respected by Sqaure. Maybe that's from the Disney side of things and how limited merchandising and all that leaves them to be less giving when it comes to Kingdom Hearts because they can't widely make money from it as much as they could? I don't know.

I just look at KHUx/Dark Road compared to FF7: The First Solider and I'm just like, "...huh. okay then"
I totally understand that not only the lackluster gameplay that is such a turn off for western fandom, but also, the fact it's on mobile, and then it's also gacha, That even if SE fixed the gameplay and mobile issues, there is still the gacha. but again, devs may not care even if the game has smaller fanbase, as long it brings in money.

Handheld , and later mobile, strive in Japan because they are such a busy, active community that likes to play on the go,while waiting on the bus or even as you take bath or taking a shit, when the west likes a console/PC game they can play as they sit at home while drinking Mountain Dew and Doritos. But that busy lifestyle is also supported by the more consuming culture in Japan. As in, in Japan, people are more willing to buy for hobbies , and thus, to whale in gachas, when in the west people are still think and rethink to spend their money on hobbies. There are already loads of stories where people whale as much as thousands of dollars and make loan of it for their specific waifus and husbandos in japan....

Typically, for console games, larger playerbase and localization is proportional to increase of copy sales. But not so with gacha revenue. Typically, gacha revenue from japan ALONE can be 2-3 times more than revenue from the REST OF THE WORLD, like what happened with Fire Emblem Heroes. Fate: Grand Order's Japan-only revenue is even TEN times the rest of the world. The forementioned Twisted Wonderland? That game generates 5 million USD in ONE YEAR, despite is JAPAN ONLY ,when FFBE needs five years to generate the same amount despite that game is available for global.

I will admit that I do have toxic positivity mindset that KHUX and DR being like this isn't the worst, the worst is when they are Japan-only, and if many games stil feel like sparing some effort on localization doesn't worth it, what about bigger investment like gameplay and graphic? still I agree that they would be more recognized if they were on console and without gacha. Truthfully I do agree cutting corners and disrespect is what SE have been doing to KH , and not just SE but also Disney, despite KH did sell LOADS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Japanese_role-playing_game_franchises (it was 5th place on this list) . This proves not that KH didn't sell, just SE and Disney is the one underestimating it.

However, it can also be argued back that the high sales is because KH games are continuous and all connected, players are forced to buy the other games to understand the whole franchise, and same person may buy the collection all over again. So while perhaps FF did have larger playerbase, KH's revenue come from the dedicated fans that keep buying the collections, and they are not that few. ... This, while FF7 is shaping up to be its own connected series, much like KH... so yeah can see why SE invest more FF7R, and to lesser context, Dragon Quest, and even more less on KH.

You mentioned FFXIV, a MMORPG. But even nowadays, big MMORPG like Warcraft or Ragnarok have moved to mobile. Companies are aware
 

MrFranklin95

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I totally understand that not only the lackluster gameplay that is such a turn off for western fandom, but also, the fact it's on mobile, and then it's also gacha, That even if SE fixed the gameplay and mobile issues, there is still the gacha. but again, devs may not care even if the game has smaller fanbase, as long it brings in money.

Handheld , and later mobile, strive in Japan because they are such a busy, active community that likes to play on the go,while waiting on the bus or even as you take bath or taking a shit, when the west likes a console/PC game they can play as they sit at home while drinking Mountain Dew and Doritos. But that busy lifestyle is also supported by the more consuming culture in Japan. As in, in Japan, people are more willing to buy for hobbies , and thus, to whale in gachas, when in the west people are still think and rethink to spend their money on hobbies. There are already loads of stories where people whale as much as thousands of dollars and make loan of it for their specific waifus and husbandos in japan....

Typically, for console games, larger playerbase and localization is proportional to increase of copy sales. But not so with gacha revenue. Typically, gacha revenue from japan ALONE can be 2-3 times more than revenue from the REST OF THE WORLD, like what happened with Fire Emblem Heroes. Fate: Grand Order's Japan-only revenue is even TEN times the rest of the world. The forementioned Twisted Wonderland? That game generates 5 million USD in ONE YEAR, despite is JAPAN ONLY ,when FFBE needs five years to generate the same amount despite that game is available for global.

I will admit that I do have toxic positivity mindset that KHUX and DR being like this isn't the worst, the worst is when they are Japan-only, and if many games stil feel like sparing some effort on localization doesn't worth it, what about bigger investment like gameplay and graphic? still I agree that they would be more recognized if they were on console and without gacha. Truthfully I do agree cutting corners and disrespect is what SE have been doing to KH , and not just SE but also Disney, despite KH did sell LOADS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Japanese_role-playing_game_franchises (it was 5th place on this list) . This proves not that KH didn't sell, just SE and Disney is the one underestimating it.

However, it can also be argued back that the high sales is because KH games are continuous and all connected, players are forced to buy the other games to understand the whole franchise, and same person may buy the collection all over again. So while perhaps FF did have larger playerbase, KH's revenue come from the dedicated fans that keep buying the collections, and they are not that few. ... This, while FF7 is shaping up to be its own connected series, much like KH... so yeah can see why SE invest more FF7R, and to lesser context, Dragon Quest, and even more less on KH.

You mentioned FFXIV, a MMORPG. But even nowadays, big MMORPG like Warcraft or Ragnarok have moved to mobile. Companies are aware
I'll admit, I do underestimated the impact of mobile in Japan and considering the culture there, yeah, mobile titles being as popular as they are makes a lot of sense.

Japanese and American culture is widely different in a lot ways. You are right about that because Americans (including myself for a time) just do not have a bad view on mobile/handheld titles because of lower hardware capability and it just doesn't match with the current console culture and the way American operate throughout the day. Its sort of the same with Animation in American compared to Animation in Japan, its just a cultural difference.

However, now that I think about it, I do think the Switch is really is changing that though. I've seen so many people with their Switch all the time on buses and trains. Same with mobile now beyond stuff like Fruit Ninja or candy crush; now we have stuff like Raid: Shadow Legends and the lattee. Its starting to come around just a little bit, espeically younger audiences and the hardware catching up to rival modern consoles. So I don't blame Japan for pursuing the mobile market because it's huge potential internationally as well and, as you said before, they make butt loads of cash in a year and sometimes lower tier gameplay is irrelevant in some cases unless something FF7.

I don't know if gacha is ever going to disappear in the same in game purchases in modern games won't. I just hope both become less predatory in practice. It happened when I was playing Tales of Arise but not as severe as the Assassin's Creed franchise.

One thing I never think about though was KH revenue being not as big, which I guess is obvious and makes more sense why Sqaure doesn't invest as much KH as they should. KH has an insanely dedicated fanbase in the console market but not by much compared to many others, so I guess I see why Sqaure only priorities certain aspects of KH. I also think, yeah, the handheld aspect of KH for almost an entire decade turned people away from the franchise and that affected it revenue as well, since I'm pretty sure KH is one of those Japanese franchises that more popular in America then Japan but I could be wrong about that. It might generally be the same, maybe 60/40. Not sure.

But man, like, I understand it's a business and Sqaure is all about making sure money comes through and cater to their audience, especially in their home country. I think its just one of those classic cases of money over what would be extremely cool creatively. Its a lack of not wanting to try because why should they? But KH has more much potential in so many ways that I don't think Sqaure even realizes, even after they put in some effort for KH3, more then they have in a decade. Or maybe they do and are slowly starting to kick it off next year and see what happens.

Like a KHUx MMORPG with 3D KH gameplay would be fucking dope and it would make sense to make (at the right time anyway) and it would tie so many fans over between releases. Maybe the amount of money it would make just isn't worth it? As you said, KH doesn't make as much as their other heavy hitters, so maybe they feel like it wouldn't last in the long run and it wouldn't be able to make a return since, yeah, I guess there is just not a lot of fans out there but, again, I think Sqaure over estimates how much fans love this series and it could go the distance with so many improvements and gain new fans. 5th place on the charts is not a bad place to be honest and the collection did a good enough job to increase KH's popularity.

If the announcement of Sora being in Smash Bros as the final character thats been hyped up since Brawl that was meant with universal praise and no in tongue in cheek memes bad mouthing the series but celebrating how much they love Sora and Kingdom Hearts as a whole is not enough for Sqaure to realize they are missing out on a potential goldmine if they just improved things and get the franchise a litte more exposure in the market and give Nomura is little bit more resources to be on the same level as FF7R. Its a risk and companies generally don't like taking risk but this is a special case where I think the risk is worth of they make sure the product is good.

KHUx and Dark Road would lasted much longer if it was made with FF7: The First Solider style in mind. To be fair, that might not of been possible as the time so idk but like you said, companies are understanding the importance of mobile even in their MMO titles. Don't see why it can't. Make it multiplatform but honestly you don't have too. I would gladly play a mobile game if it was polished enough and meant the high standard. If GI can do it, KH definately can and should.

But to be fair, I don't even think Sqaure doesn't want to do it. They clearly haven't abandoned the series outright and understood the wide demand for KH3 but something clearly is being held back considering the amount of issues KH3 had. I do think the legal aspect of working with Disney is a big contributing factor. If Sqaure can't widely give the series more attention because the legal loopholes and bullshit Sqaure would have to jump through makes giving the franchise more money and resources not all that worth if they can't widely sell toys like other franchises or hell, even have a presence in Disneyland. But honestly why not? Why not hash it out with Disney? Disney is always going to get a certain percentage, that's just how it is. It doesn't mean they can't work out a deal. I know film is a widely different industry but If Sony and Marvel can do it with shared characters like Spider man, I don't see why Sqaure and Disney can't sit down and hash it out once and for all so both parties make money. Plus, despite some successes in the video game market, Disney promoting Kingdom Hearts as their premiere video game title would do them so much good.

I also think Disney needs to allow Nomura a little bit more creative freedom, which what sort held KH3 back in the Disney department as far some story stuff is concerned. What matter most is who they games are received and if Disney is holding them back too much, I think maybe they need to be less strict to allow for more dynamic storytelling that KH can excell at if done right. And I think Nomura is passionate for what he is going to make for KH if Yozora (as much as it worries me a bit) is anything to do by

I do have hope for the future despite my reservations. We still have the Disney+ show on the way and KH games are fully back in the console market. My hope for the saga is that it furher increases KH engagement but that depends on the game. KH2 is celebrated because its a stellar game and has remain the peak of this franchise. The next game needs to reach that level and if it does, I think Sqaure and Disney will invest into it. And its like they didn't with KH3 to some degree but clearly corner were cut. But honeslty, I find that more to do with troubled development and Nomura's possible bitter steering the ship of KH3 into a lackluster direction despite rhe money it made, which would've been more. We have a chance to turn it around. A fresh start.

All this mobile games stuff and KH exposure is all going to boil down with the reception of the next game and the TV show. If both can succeed widely, bigger things will come KH, including a well polished mobile game that's also multi platform that fans have been wanting for a while. I know the crazy plot is still memed to death on the internet but if KH4 or the next game is loved across the board, none of that is even gonna matter.

We'll gave to wait and see I guess. We got a month and half to go until next year.
 
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Face My Fears

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Well, I am sad to hear that you experienced such negativity trying to discuss KH3... I am happy to hear that the paradigm has apparently shifted in favour of defending KH3. I was on the opposite situation as you when KH3 was released. Everywhere I went, especially YouTube, was filled with hate for KH3 and non-stop trashing of the game (the biggest complaint being something along the lines of "we waited 20 years for this!?" from someone that just got into the series and only made content about it because of the hype and views).

I feel like it's probably because KH has always been crapped on by "mainstream" gaming, so it's always been seen as weird or "niche" or just had "complicated story" attached to it forever. With all of that baggage, I guess some fans automatically go on the defense. Aside from that, there are people in the community that fight over stuff in the games and always want to be seen as "right" about it.

I know after the horrible responses and comments that I saw about KH3, I just decided to step back and not take what some person on the internet says so seriously because it can affect you. I'm not saying that I'm going to ignore criticisms, but I came to my own conclusions about KH3. I agree with some things people say, I disagree with others. I can acknowledge what some people say about it, even if I don't necessarily notice or care about it (like the critiques about the fighting system in vanilla KH3, I'm definitely not knowledgeable in frame rates and floaty combat and all of that).

You should try to just figure out when to back out of a discussion when it gets toxic or know how to direct the discussion in a way that won't get that way. Or try to find a KH community that is open to discussion - good or bad - about the game.
 

Alpha Baymax

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No, I think it's necessary. Sometimes we disagree but concerns are still valid to express if it means that the next Kingdom Hearts game can be improved upon through prior feedback.
 

DraceEmpressa

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I am not gonna say critique is unnecessary, but I would daresay:

First, it's important to differentiate between meaningless rant and actual constructive critique. Sometimes people say their meaningless rant as criticism to be excuse to be salty on the internet . Be objective, instead of blinded by both rage and addiction alike.

Second, I've said this before, but it's also important to consider the cultural factor. Not only about mobile games, but we know KH plot is such an acid trip when acid trip plots because well, let's just say Japanese people have their own quirky style in storytelling and KH isn't the only Japanese work famous precisely for it's acid trip plot (see also MGS or even Evangelion or Serial Experiments Lain) .The convoluted storytelling may be turn off to most western consumers, but some weebs would be into that acid trip plot and symbolism/the puzzle like plot.

Thirdly, yes, we are mostly consumers here (idk if any of you are indie game makers), but consider it from development's point of view. Is it actually worth the money? Or will it actually bring the company/franchise more fame/succes in the long run? Was it a bad move even from business/development perspective?

When all three conditions are met and the fandom healthily consider the franchise's flaw, then we can critique the series. And even then, preferably on a media the compay provided to listen to the fandom's feedback, so they can listen to what fandom wants and reflect from that.
 

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@MrFranklin95
I think you got a good head on your shoulders. Don't beat yourself too much.

I agree with @DraceEmpressa. There's a difference between constructive criticism and a meaningless rant.

To me, the goal of a fandom is to connect with others and share how you feel about what you like.

It could even be a learning experience if you are an artist. Fans complain about Kairi and someone might learn how to write a better love interest/heroine.

I think your problem was they weren't ready to deal with any critism.

A problem with fandoms is that they can be singleminded.
 
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