Is It Nomura's Fault: The Problem With Kingdom Hearts

[Dreq the Dreck]

This still baffles me. Of ALL people Xigbar would see Xion as...where the hell did Ven even come from? Like...of it was Sora or Roxas, understandable, but...he sees XION in Ven? I get that she's comprised of Sora's memories, but...it legit doesn't make ANY sense to me.

At this stage in the game, I'm surprised Luxu saw Ventus in Xion instead of Skuld. Same hair color (mostly) and both have tits. Why make it harder for one's brain?

 

[2 quid is good]

At this stage in the game, I'm surprised Luxu saw Ventus in Xion instead of Skuld. Same hair color (mostly) and both have tits. Why make it harder for one's brain?

Because skuld wasn't around back then and is retconned into being relevant

 

[Cumguardian69]

No, the fault is bureaucracy. Disney kills the plot, Nomura has no idea how to write, scenario team are half invested half not, and SE is gonna SE.

Reminder that BBS was supposed to be a PS2 game.

Reminder that DDD was going to feature Nobodies and Heartless.

Reminder that VersusXIII got mismanaged by Nomura (muh musical) and SE (lmao) and then turned into the mangled mess we call FFXV.

Reminder that KH3 released in its sorry state then an entire year later they rushed out Remind and reused assets from 2(FM) for O&O.

Reminder that over half of KH3 is irrelevant Disney filler.

Sora is simultaneously Keyblade Jesus and a complete idiot.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

Because skuld wasn't around back then and is retconned into being relevant

At this stage in the game, I'm surprised Luxu saw Ventus in Xion instead of Skuld. Same hair color (mostly) and both have tits. Why make it harder for one's brain?

If things had been planned out long in advance then Xigbar probably would have seen her as either Skuld or Ava, given who he really is. They are like the same size as well. But like you said they didn't exist back then and BBS was the prequel game they were promoting. Honestly Xigbar had very little interaction with Ventus so for him to have that strong of a connection to see him in Xion is almost misleading into thinking these two have long history.

 

[disney233]

If things had been planned out long in advance then Xigbar probably would have seen her as either Skuld or Ava, given who he really is. They are like the same size as well. But like you said they didn't exist back then and BBS was the prequel game they were promoting. Honestly Xigbar had very little interaction with Ventus so for him to have that strong of a connection to see him in Xion is almost misleading into thinking these two have long history.

I find it hard to believe that ANYTHING like this was planned out long in advanced.

 

[Cumguardian69]

I find it hard to believe that ANYTHING like this was planned out long in advanced.

None of it was. It's a huge meme in the community that "Nomura set this up years ago".

 

[Sign]

At this stage in the game, I'm surprised Luxu saw Ventus in Xion instead of Skuld. Same hair color (mostly) and both have tits. Why make it harder for one's brain?

If things had been planned out long in advance then Xigbar probably would have seen her as either Skuld or Ava, given who he really is. They are like the same size as well. But like you said they didn't exist back then and BBS was the prequel game they were promoting. Honestly Xigbar had very little interaction with Ventus so for him to have that strong of a connection to see him in Xion is almost misleading into thinking these two have long history.

Xion can only appear as a person connected to Sora who resonates strongest with the viewer. Besides the obvious answer that, as you all mentioned, Skuld and Ava weren't created yet, neither these two have anything to do with him.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

Xion can only appear as a person connected to Sora who resonates strongest with the viewer. Besides the obvious answer that, as you all mentioned, Skuld and Ava weren't created yet, neither these two have anything to do with him.

Well...Ava and Skuld do know Ventus who is connected to Sora. I mean the game tells us Sora and Terra are somehow connected despite Sora never meeting Terra personally. Because Namine was able to reach Terra and she can only do her memory stuff with people connected to Sora, and this one is a big stretch. So there is a possibility that Ava and Skuld can be traced back to Sora's connections to because they know Ventus. I know what I just typed was incredibly stretching it, I'm just throwing that out there XD

 

[Sign]

Well...Ava and Skuld do know Ventus who is connected to Sora. I mean the game tells us Sora and Terra are somehow connected despite Sora never meeting Terra personally. Because Namine was able to reach Terra and she can only do her memory stuff with people connected to Sora, and this one is a big stretch. So there is a possibility that Ava and Skuld can be traced back to Sora's connections to because they know Ventus. I know what I just typed was incredibly stretching it, I'm just throwing that out there XD

Namine was able to dig deep and follow the connections to find Terra, but Ava and Skuld are a different story. They would be in memories Ven can't access, and through a heart that's both fractured and dormant, may very well be out of reach. It's not really the same case as Terra, who is actively being remembered.

 

[SweetYetSalty]

Namine was able to dig deep and follow the connections to find Terra, but Ava and Skuld are a different story. They would be in memories Ven can't access, and through a heart that's both fractured and dormant, may very well be out of reach. It's not really the same case as Terra, who is actively being remembered.

Agreed. I was just using the Namine/Terra thing as a example, not that this is the same thing. The connections are still there in the heart even if the memories are unchained. So technically Xigbar still could have seen Ava or Skuld, because even if Ven doesn't remember them they are connected by the heart.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Namine was able to dig deep and follow the connections to find Terra, but Ava and Skuld are a different story. They would be in memories Ven can't access, and through a heart that's both fractured and dormant, may very well be out of reach. It's not really the same case as Terra, who is actively being remembered.

Naminè is powerful. Putting aside the theory of her being Ava, those memories are still within Ventus. She can dig even deeper if she wanted to or was curious enough. I doubt it's out of reach for her. Farther, but it's very much possible. Keep in mind we still don't really know in full detail how she works aside from the simplified "traces links". She even confessed to Roxas that she doesn't know how to use her powers. It's basically trial and error. We didn't know she was capable of contacting Terra and summoning him, but here we are. This is her exploring. And if the plot calls for it, she'll continue figuring out other things with her abilities.

Her and Kairi are the series' best deus ex machina, lol.

 

[Dreq the Dreck]

Because skuld wasn't around back then and is retconned into being relevant

And for some reason it hurts me to laugh about it.

 

[MysticMage10]

I was thinking about the core problem with Kingdom Hearts. No, I'm not referring to gameplay, story, graphics or anything like that, I mean the actual problem with Kingdom Hearts on a whole. Why is it that some games are better than others? Where is the consistency in content that a KH game should include? The revelation that I came to was quite Nomura-esque and that is simply: it's Kingdom Hearts' fault. Kingdom Hearts itself is the core problem.

This series is completely unique - Disney and Square properties combined. It also isn't a game that is all about cute cameos and no real story, it's also loaded with actual story elements. Can we honestly expect a game that juggles so many different properties to generate a consistent, cohesive plot or have elements that were included in previous installments? Granted, the plot itself exists outside of the Disney worlds, but if 90% of the game takes place in Disney worlds, then how can the main plot really be utilized as best as possible? Let alone, world selection to match the main plot's themes or interaction with Disney characters and the main characters?

If we look all the way back at KH1 - the original and widely accepted best entry - the formula was just right. Final Fantasy served as a guide/home base, the Disney worlds were effectively used filler content that helped beef up the main plot/lore of the series, and the original characters clashed in a great climax that delivered an earned ending. Looking at the next entry, KHCoM, you can also see that the formula was followed. KH2 is where the issues arrive - the formula is thrown off. The Disney worlds are filler with barely any useful content for the main plot, the Final Fantasy characters are no longer your guide (will come back to this later), and the original characters outweigh the rest and did not earn the ending that it received. When I really think about it, KH2's ending only feels earned because of the work that KH1 and KHCoM put into it.

Now, I'm not bashing KH2 here, I'm just saying that it was the beginning of the problem. The formula was messed up. Next we're on to Days (which I adore because of Roxas/Xion, but still) which began the trend of focusing on other protagonists and expanding the story beyond the scope of the ESTABLISHED protagonist - Sora. I'm all for genuine side-games that explore other characters and expand upon information we already know, but Days wasn't just exploring Roxas' time in the Organization. It introduced new plot elements (like Xion). Now the Disney is pure filler, Final Fantasy is absent, and the original characters reign supreme in a story that is heart-wrenching, but also hurting the main story that we've come to know.

After Days is BbS, which I think is the true downfall of the series. We have three brand new protagonists that we've never met or heard of before. The Disney worlds are filler. Final Fantasy is again absent. Now, it's understandable why they were absent in Days, but going to Radiant Garden and not seeing them - after the fact that they lived there was hammered into our heads for years - shows why the formula should have been maintained and why KH2 basically caused this. In KH2, the Final Fantasy characters aren't the guide anymore, it's Sora. Sora knows better than them - so what is their purpose? They've been reduced to a cameo because they can't serve their original purpose. So of course they wouldn't show up in Radiant Garden (their home) in BbS because Terra, Aqua, and even Ven know more than they do. Instead we get more original characters. The worst offense that BbS committed was not being a genuine side-game. Days could have gotten away with Xion, but BbS redefined the Kingdom Hearts narrative and formula. Because BbS - though side-game sized - was treated as a main game, the formula introduced there was carried forward into the next real main game - KH3.

Examining all of that and understanding how we got to KH3, I think we should now ask the question: is this Nomura's fault? Most will giddily yell "yes", but I don't think so. The formula worked, but maybe Nomura had to change it because he couldn't use it the same way anymore? After KH2, Disney became much more successful and also more restrictive in their IPs. It also seems like they became much more aware/interested in the KH series after KH3 was announced (they probably saw the reaction and became cognizant to the one thing they care about - money). If Nomura can't use Disney the way that the formula suggests it should, then what? You increase other aspects? Now that Final Fantasy's role has been reduced (thanks to KH2), do they even need to make an appearance? What would they do?

Ultimately, I see the KH series' problem stemming from KH2. After that, change after change has diluted the series. Don't get me wrong, KH2 was a good entry (albeit a little lacking on the usage of Disney), but it set precedents that ended up altering the face of the series: Final Fantasy characters were no longer Sora's guides, original characters were more abundant and more important than plot, Disney worlds being purely filler, a watered down/pointless tournament shoe-horned into Olympus (so unimportant that there are no secret fights there anymore), and the lack of a plot that builds to that game's ending. KH has lost its true core. Sure, there's Disney and Final Fantasy still, but the execution has been poor. Whose fault is it?

Right on the money, especially the part about Disney's involvement with the franchise being the cause of the series losing its identity. It's a topic I've tried to avoid talking about since this fandom sucks at taking criticism, but thank goodness for people like you who aren't afraid to speak their minds.

 

[Dandelion]

Try not to post in long-dead topics. No one has been talking about this for three and a half years.