Is it bad in terms of the plot of Kingdom hearts ll ? And does it destroy the series?



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Nukara

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Kingdom hearts ll was the first game with which I got acquainted with this series.
I really liked the story and I always thought it was the best game of the series. Also all my friends believed as well.
However, recently I came across one commentator on Youtube who assured me that KH2 is good only in terms of gameplay, and the plot in it is not very much and that all other fans love this game only for the gameplay.
He also assured me that only KH1 has a good story, and in all other games the plot is bad.
Of course, I did not agree with this and tried to prove to him wrong, but looking for an opinion on the plot of this game I often come across the fact that many (Not all) really believe that KH2 destroyed the series, which made me very sad and upset. I do not even know what to say to the person with whom I started arguing.
And what do you think? Is KH2 really not very good in terms of the plot? Did the history in this game ruin the franchise? And is there only a good story in KH1? For I do not really agree with this, but if most can so consider my opinion, nothing will mean and I will have to go with the rest of the rest. If this statement is not true write, well, if all of the above is really true, then explain why? Maybe I'll reconsider my priorities and I will not be such a hardcore fan.:confused:
 

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I mean, I for one definitely think it's one of the worst games plot/story wise, personally.

But you don't really have to worry if you feel differently from other people. Art is subjective and maybe there was stuff that spoke deeply to you in KHII that didn't for other people. Maybe others are more particular about what they want and what they expect, etc. If you like it then you like it. I don't really think you should go about trying to be convinced to like something less just because others do.
 
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ImVentus

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Well from someone else who first got introduced to the series with KH2, I actually never really compared the games at first. Until I re-played the whole collection so far. It was obvious to notice how so many reacted both positive and critical towards post-KH1.

I believe that KH1's plot is much easier to follow along, with not much questions thrown at you. There is a unique balance between world exploring, friendship and etc.

I actually prefer the story in KH2, when it focuses mainly on the newfound Organization 13. While KH2 is not as straightforward with it's plot, it's still a mysterious and complex continuation on the KH lore, while not being too complicated (thanks to FM)

So story-wise, I would say that it comes down to different taste in storytelling and execution. However, both are flawed. While KH1's plot can be much simpler yet captivating, KH2's plot can be a bit more mature and slow.

What I mean with this (KH1 deals with a balance between good vs evil. It demonstrates such factors as jealousy, greed, sacrifice, love and etc. While not being as complex but a story about a chosen one, that will save his friends and worlds around him.

(KH2 deals further with the idea of what happens once you're heart has created a nobody, the fate and life that a nobody lives. It demonstrates the ignorance of the good guys, that believes all nobodies are meant to exist in the dark. It's actually a little depressing, since many of the nobodies were forced or manipulated to meet their fates. Outside of the nobody influence, KH2 focuses a lot on memories and connections to those we made a part of our journey. It's a nice metaphor for how we influenced their lives as much as they influenced ours. Visiting worlds and being welcomed back to see our friends, makes it feel like a very peaceful and joyous home to return to. Which I really liked about KH2 (A sense of visiting loved ones, friends and just appreciating the time of happiness and joy with others.
 

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First off, word of advice: nothing subjective can be "true". Don't ever assume that someone is "correct" because they have good points, always go off of how you feel about something when it's subjective. I let critics rule my life for years, and now that I think for myself I've been able to form a better opinion of the series that's more personalized.

So, yeah, I used to be a guy who hated Kingdom Hearts II's gameplay and plot. Not only did the gameplay seem too easy to me, but the plot didn't interest me. How do I feel about it now, though?

The original Kingdom Hearts had a solid plot, but that's because it hardly had a world to expand and it gave itself a simple plot to work off of. Kingdom Hearts is where its worlds were established, so everything added could be assumed to work within the realms of this universe because it was the beginning of that universe. Kingdom Hearts II had to expand outside of its own bubble and distinguish itself from its original selling point of Disney and Final Fantasy, and in that it certainly focuses more on creating its own universe instead of leaning on the properties that helped get it started.

I love the bare plot of Kingdom Hearts II, but the main issue with Organization XIII's plot is that it is very unbalanced throughout the game. It feels like the writers around the end of the first round of Disney worlds suddenly went "oh yeah, we were supposed to have Organization XIII be the bad guys, not Maleficent & Pete!" and they suddenly threw them in there. The Final Mix helped with the main plot, adding more scenes with Organization XIII, an endgame with more characters to fight, and the Lingering Will (which is the coolest thing in KH imo), but even then it feels like an afterthought. This is especially seen in the Disney worlds, where the bare bones plot is even more apparent as these worlds don't even feel like they have anything to do with the plot at hand.

However, at the same time, I can't see myself hating KHII, especially since the ending is just that good. It ends perfectly, and all the characters have a proper resolution where the series could have ended. I love it so much.

So, what do I think about it now? The more I get older, I can't see myself caring about the fluff as much as long as the ending works out. This is also why Birth by Sleep isn't my least favorite, either; the middle is badly written, sure, and the Disney worlds really don't have much to do with anything, but I can't see myself hating it because that ending really gets me where I live.

Just don't let critics define what you do and don't like is all that I can tell you.
 

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It's not as focused as KH1 and can meander around. It ends up starting some of the future games are known for. I don't think its the worst of the series as that would be DDD.
 

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KH2 was weak in some areas. KH2 started this trend of the Disney worlds not really mattering to the main plot, which was something KH1 did really well at. (CoM was just a "remake" of the Disney worlds from KH1, with a different plot, so maybe you can say it started there, too, but even this was integrated into the plot)

But there were also a lot of things that it added to the series that are great. Introducing us to Roxas, his entire prologue (although I agree it should be skippable after the first playthrough), the concept behind Organization XIII, Ansem the Wise, Nobodies, etc. This game had some plot twists, but for the most part, they were easy to follow.

I think it was BBS were the series' writing went downhill. They didn't need Ven and Vanitas to look like Sora and Roxas or to show their connection to each other. They didn't give us any reason to care about TAV's friendship because we never saw their "normal" and they separated 10 minutes into the game. They didn't need to add Keyblade bequeathing, because that took away from the idea that the Keyblade was somewhat sentient. They didn't need to create the X-Blade or the Keyblade war and could have had a simpler conflict. A lot of the things BBS added were things that DDD took and made a lot more convoluted.
 

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[video=youtube;UhcqCIWc2wY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhcqCIWc2wY&t=2369s[/video]

Someone else who thinks BBS was the turning point for the series. The beginning of the end so to speak.

I actually know who gave up on KH after 2. She felt alot of the new plot twists were confusing.

So im sure for some people KH2 destroyed their love for the series. Other people it was a different game and for me it was DDD.

It is what it is.
 
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ReverofEnola

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Yeah KH2's story is pretty lackluster when compared to KH1's due to it:

Treating Disney Worlds as filler and just choosing to copy/paste the movie plots.
The Roxas Prologue honestly didn't really need the 2nd and 5th Days.
Writing Sora as a shounen anime protagonist. Like most fans will say that DDD ruined his personality first but I'm in the minority who believes it started with KH2.
Not having enough screentime/cutscenes dedicated to Organization when playthough the game. Like most of their scenes are at the beginning and near the end. It should have been somewhat evenly balanced throughout.
 

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KH2 was weak in some areas. KH2 started this trend of the Disney worlds not really mattering to the main plot, which was something KH1 did really well at. (CoM was just a "remake" of the Disney worlds from KH1, with a different plot, so maybe you can say it started there, too, but even this was integrated into the plot)

But there were also a lot of things that it added to the series that are great. Introducing us to Roxas, his entire prologue (although I agree it should be skippable after the first playthrough), the concept behind Organization XIII, Ansem the Wise, Nobodies, etc. This game had some plot twists, but for the most part, they were easy to follow.

I think it was BBS were the series' writing went downhill. They didn't need Ven and Vanitas to look like Sora and Roxas or to show their connection to each other. They didn't give us any reason to care about TAV's friendship because we never saw their "normal" and they separated 10 minutes into the game. They didn't need to add Keyblade bequeathing, because that took away from the idea that the Keyblade was somewhat sentient. They didn't need to create the X-Blade or the Keyblade war and could have had a simpler conflict. A lot of the things BBS added were things that DDD took and made a lot more convoluted.
Then how would they explain that Roxas is not like Sora?
And Vanitas looks just awesome and it's hard to imagine him with another person.
But what about the fact that Aqua Keyblade chose Kairi without the latter?
 

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And yet, nevertheless, that commentator on Youtube was right. Most people do not particularly favor the plot of KH2.
And I'm probably one of the few who went to the story line KH2. ))
 

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Most people do not particularly favor the plot of KH2.
I mean, you'll find that virtually every title in the series has a large group of people who vocally hate it.
It's best to just like what you like and not be concerned with what other people think about it, really.

Honestly, half the time it feels like this fandom is incapable of liking anything, so if you do like something, hold onto that and don't diminish it lol.
 
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I would describe the plot of KH2 as unbalanced and perhaps overly ambitious, with some fine highs and some questionable lows. It was definitely going for a blockbuster, "event" game feeling, and in its hurry to reach mega franchise status its plotting gets trapped in various corners which the writers then have to work themselves out of, which does damage to the game's overall sense of organic connection between characters and events. However, it's also a much smarter and more thoughtful game than a lot of people tend to give it credit for: thematically, it's both rich and surprisingly consistent, with every "twist" in the plot working to advance core ideas about how "nothing is whole, and nothing is broken." It engages in equivocations about what makes someone "real" in their identity, their existence and their relationships with others and fashions from that a story about homecoming and a kind of universal course correction which both reframes key concepts in the first two games (to the chagrin of many fans) and sets the stage for successive titles to inherit the saga's reconstructed premise, which basically questions how people overcome the vast distances (in time and place, both literal and figurative) which separate them.

It champions some of the series' clunkiest dialogue and sequencing, but also some of its most poetic and daring narrative movements: it's a go big or go home sort of story, so its premise is often oversold, but when it lands it feels as tight and confident as anything in KH1 or CoM. It's probably the game to which I've felt the sharpest shifts in relation over time, with different aspects of it feeling right and wrong each time I play it. I think that uncertainty, of not knowing when it's going to work for you and when it isn't, is a reason it has so many detractors, and yet it's the title probably most associated with introducing people to the series long-term. If, like me, you're susceptible to its efforts at emotional and non-literal forms of fulfillment, I think it has a better chance of resonating than if you're someone who's more inclined to engage with its serial continuity as a story about the previous stories-- as opposed to one informed but ultimately unbinded from them, which is how I think KH2 presents itself. Neither approach is wrong, but they'll obviously net different responses, and I think that has contributed to how the fandom has placed the burden of KH's many wrongs as a series on KH2 in retrospect.
 

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Then how would they explain that Roxas is not like Sora?
They already have the same face, it's just the hair that's different. That was a visual cue to help people understand that Roxas and Sora were separate people, even though they were the same being, and to visually separate them. Roxas never had Sora's memories in the first place, so it made sense that he wasn't an exact copy.

But what about the fact that Aqua Keyblade chose Kairi without the latter?
Aqua give it to Kairi by accident so she didn't even chose her. Yet Riku is the one to give it to her in KH2. and they never explain how Riku knew (Mickey and Yen Sid only found out in DDD's secret ending) or where that Keyblade he gave her was. Or how Aqua missed that Kairi had a Keyblade when she could tell Riku that got one from Terra.

It would have worked perfectly well to say that the Keyblade chose her because her heart is strong and pure, and to help her fight alongside Riku and Sora. It also undercuts the idea that the Keyblade is somewhat sentient/intelligent, because they were given it by someone 10 years earlier, instead of them earning the Keyblade's power.
 

Nukara

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They already have the same face, it's just the hair that's different. That was a visual cue to help people understand that Roxas and Sora were separate people, even though they were the same being, and to visually separate them. Roxas never had Sora's memories in the first place, so it made sense that he wasn't an exact copy.



Aqua give it to Kairi by accident so she didn't even chose her. Yet Riku is the one to give it to her in KH2. and they never explain how Riku knew (Mickey and Yen Sid only found out in DDD's secret ending) or where that Keyblade he gave her was. Or how Aqua missed that Kairi had a Keyblade when she could tell Riku that got one from Terra.

It would have worked perfectly well to say that the Keyblade chose her because her heart is strong and pure, and to help her fight alongside Riku and Sora. It also undercuts the idea that the Keyblade is somewhat sentient/intelligent, because they were given it by someone 10 years earlier, instead of them earning the Keyblade's power.
Up to 2.5 the person Roxas was different from Sora. And how the lack of memories can affect the appearance? Roxas formally "Body Sora" he in any event would have acquired similarity with Sora.
Yes and no.
It seems to me that keyblade can obey the will of the owner, but in which case he can choose himself worthy if he finds that a person has a strong heart. Terra bequeathed the keyblade Riku. But Kingdom key that was supposed to go to Riku considered him unworthy and moved to Sora, although it was originally intended for another guy.
This is certainly a theory, but I think I could try to combine the will and the fact that the keyblade can be reasonable.
 

Nukara

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I would describe the plot of KH2 as unbalanced and perhaps overly ambitious, with some fine highs and some questionable lows. It was definitely going for a blockbuster, "event" game feeling, and in its hurry to reach mega franchise status its plotting gets trapped in various corners which the writers then have to work themselves out of, which does damage to the game's overall sense of organic connection between characters and events. However, it's also a much smarter and more thoughtful game than a lot of people tend to give it credit for: thematically, it's both rich and surprisingly consistent, with every "twist" in the plot working to advance core ideas about how "nothing is whole, and nothing is broken." It engages in equivocations about what makes someone "real" in their identity, their existence and their relationships with others and fashions from that a story about homecoming and a kind of universal course correction which both reframes key concepts in the first two games (to the chagrin of many fans) and sets the stage for successive titles to inherit the saga's reconstructed premise, which basically questions how people overcome the vast distances (in time and place, both literal and figurative) which separate them.

It champions some of the series' clunkiest dialogue and sequencing, but also some of its most poetic and daring narrative movements: it's a go big or go home sort of story, so its premise is often oversold, but when it lands it feels as tight and confident as anything in KH1 or CoM. It's probably the game to which I've felt the sharpest shifts in relation over time, with different aspects of it feeling right and wrong each time I play it. I think that uncertainty, of not knowing when it's going to work for you and when it isn't, is a reason it has so many detractors, and yet it's the title probably most associated with introducing people to the series long-term. If, like me, you're susceptible to its efforts at emotional and non-literal forms of fulfillment, I think it has a better chance of resonating than if you're someone who's more inclined to engage with its serial continuity as a story about the previous stories-- as opposed to one informed but ultimately unbinded from them, which is how I think KH2 presents itself. Neither approach is wrong, but they'll obviously net different responses, and I think that has contributed to how the fandom has placed the burden of KH's many wrongs as a series on KH2 in retrospect.
Simply still KH2 (IMHO) has absorbed most of the best and dramatic moments. Well, more interesting and developed characters. For personally, I can not remember the moment where in the same KH1 that would have touched me. All as well too on detstki.
It's interesting to me whether fans have long been pritenzii to the plot of KH2? Or most of the fans began to criticize the plot only in the next few years?
 

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Up to 2.5 the person Roxas was different from Sora. And how the lack of memories can affect the appearance? Roxas formally "Body Sora" he in any event would have acquired similarity with Sora.
Yes and no.
It seems to me that keyblade can obey the will of the owner, but in which case he can choose himself worthy if he finds that a person has a strong heart. Terra bequeathed the keyblade Riku. But Kingdom key that was supposed to go to Riku considered him unworthy and moved to Sora, although it was originally intended for another guy.
This is certainly a theory, but I think I could try to combine the will and the fact that the keyblade can be reasonable.
I just remembered that in a secret episode for Aqua, keyblades Terra and Ven came to the rescue to her. :-D
 
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Simply still KH2 (IMHO) has absorbed most of the best and dramatic moments. Well, more interesting and developed characters. For personally, I can not remember the moment where in the same KH1 that would have touched me. All as well too on detstki.
KH1 is on the whole subtler and less prone to dramatic reaches-- or, rather, the whole damn thing is a dramatic reach from start to finish-- so its "big moments" are comparatively relaxed and tend to correspond naturally to the story overall: KH2 is different in that it has something to prove and it amplifies its central ideas both in order to cement them as mainstays in the predicted expansion of the franchise, and to increase the stakes for the benefit of its audience while simultaneously codifying the series' plotting into something of a conventional package. As a result, KH2's dramatic language is maybe more recognizable than its predecessors, and to many I think that could translate to a more powerful experience, at least superficially. Its bold sense of direction also works to its benefit in some areas, and others not so much: KH2 doesn't walk, it runs, and for a lot of people that can be exhilarating.

It's interesting to me whether fans have long been pritenzii to the plot of KH2? Or most of the fans began to criticize the plot only in the next few years?
To my recollection, initial response to the game was pretty positive, with a lot of people getting swept up in exactly the kind of dramatic movements I reference above. KH2 is exceptionally successful at eliciting a desired emotional, gut response from the player whenever and wherever it gets the opportunity, and it's usually those experiences which make an immediate impression on an audience: what we're feeling frequently takes precedence over what we're thinking, and there are entire art forms which exploit that as a conceptual framework. Emotion isn't subordinate to cognition in that regard, but inevitably there will be some who prefer their context to be explicit and find fault in works which appear to make their case primarily through emotional appeal or engage in less scrupulous endeavors in gratification. So I think that caused a bit of a blowback in which KH2 came to be viewed less favorably over time by a vocal component of the fandom aiming to break through the prevailing consensus. I think this became particularly potent as, justifiably, links were identified between the relative thematic weaknesses of some titles (notably BBS) and the instigation of narrative threads in KH2. It's now turned a corner into a sort of reactionary method of deflecting criticism back to its perceived roots: if the Days/BBS/Coded trilogy are fruit of the poisonous tree, KH2 is that tree, according to some.
 

Nukara

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KH1 is on the whole subtler and less prone to dramatic reaches-- or, rather, the whole damn thing is a dramatic reach from start to finish-- so its "big moments" are comparatively relaxed and tend to correspond naturally to the story overall: KH2 is different in that it has something to prove and it amplifies its central ideas both in order to cement them as mainstays in the predicted expansion of the franchise, and to increase the stakes for the benefit of its audience while simultaneously codifying the series' plotting into something of a conventional package. As a result, KH2's dramatic language is maybe more recognizable than its predecessors, and to many I think that could translate to a more powerful experience, at least superficially. Its bold sense of direction also works to its benefit in some areas, and others not so much: KH2 doesn't walk, it runs, and for a lot of people that can be exhilarating.


To my recollection, initial response to the game was pretty positive, with a lot of people getting swept up in exactly the kind of dramatic movements I reference above. KH2 is exceptionally successful at eliciting a desired emotional, gut response from the player whenever and wherever it gets the opportunity, and it's usually those experiences which make an immediate impression on an audience: what we're feeling frequently takes precedence over what we're thinking, and there are entire art forms which exploit that as a conceptual framework. Emotion isn't subordinate to cognition in that regard, but inevitably there will be some who prefer their context to be explicit and find fault in works which appear to make their case primarily through emotional appeal or engage in less scrupulous endeavors in gratification. So I think that caused a bit of a blowback in which KH2 came to be viewed less favorably over time by a vocal component of the fandom aiming to break through the prevailing consensus. I think this became particularly potent as, justifiably, links were identified between the relative thematic weaknesses of some titles (notably BBS) and the instigation of narrative threads in KH2. It's now turned a corner into a sort of reactionary method of deflecting criticism back to its perceived roots: if the Days/BBS/Coded trilogy are fruit of the poisonous tree, KH2 is that tree, according to some.
Thank you for explaining the situation. )) Still, it is a pity that such a fate befell this game.
Yes, I like this game, but I'm in a minority and my opinion means nothing, for most people think otherwise and the opinion of those few as I mean little.
 

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Nevertheless, I can not understand why many consider the story in KH2 difficult?
 

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Nevertheless, I can not understand why many consider the story in KH2 difficult?
Got me there. I understood the story perfectly fine as a nine year old and yet there's people left and right still complaining about how "convoluted" it was. I think the discussion around that died a slow and horrible death with the introduction of DDD, however; that one really cemented the bloated writing for most people.
 
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