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ICE/DEATH Meaning? [SPOILERS]



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Face My Fears

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I've been having these weird thoughts lately... like is the ice that envelopes certain characters when they die mean anything? I don't think it was ever touched upon in the series or lore anywhere, but if you look at the characters that get iced when they die, there is a connection. We've seen human characters die by just fading away, so why do certain characters have an icy demise? Well, it looks like only characters connected to Sora (and Sora himself) die that way. We've seen it happen to Xion, then Kairi, then Sora. It's interesting that the first was Xion - the combination of Sora and Kairi, then happening to each of them individually. Was there ever an interview that discussed Nomura's choice for using the ice for Xion's death, instead of just fading away like Axel in KH2? Anyone have theories on why certain characters die via ice?

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Obinya

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Coming from Final Fantasy, it looks more like they are crystallizing. From FFs like VII, X, and XIII people/hearts/memories can be stored in crystal or become crystal when concentrated. For example, it’s a pretty big plot point in XIII:LR when a character sleeps in Crystal in order to preserve the heart of another that sleeps in them.

So in the instance of Xion,
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In Kairi’s instance, from Re:mind,
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With Sora, he could also be getting saved for later.
 

SweetYetSalty

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I had no theories on it at all, I thought it was done to look pretty and for dramatic effect but Obinya's theory made more sense. And it does seem to be a Sora/Kairi thing...or a fusion of them. Will crystals play a role in KH as they do FF?
 

bambii

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Yeah my understanding was that the secret episode heavily implicated this to be a direct reference to the Fabula Nova Crystallis mythos (FFXIII, Type-0, and Versus - arguably FFXV as well). I’m not too familiar myself but the gist of it is that a being (l’Cie) tasked by the gods (fal’Cie) to complete a “focus” goes into crystal stasis when that task has been completed. I believe l’Cie technically also exist in FFXV but under a different name or are nameless, so it’s not beyond the stretch of the imagination that the overarching mythology is being woven into Kingdom Hearts (potentially including KH in its broader multiverse) but that the names for these things (l’Cie etc) may not be exactly the same. This mythology was supposed to be central to FF versus XIII.
 
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Sign

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I'm of the opinion that Xion got a sparkly, crystal-y death just cuz of the nature of Days and it has no relevance to any lore implications.
 

SweetYetSalty

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Yeah my understanding was that the secret episode heavily implicated this to be a direct reference to the Fabula Nova Crystallis mythos (FFXIII, Type-0, and Versus - arguably FFXV as well). I’m not too familiar myself but the gist of it is that a being (l’Cie) tasked by the gods (fal’Cie) to complete a “focus” goes into crystal stasis when that task has been completed. I believe l’Cie technically also exist in FFXV but under a different name or are nameless, so it’s not beyond the stretch of the imagination that the overarching mythology is being woven into Kingdom Hearts (potentially including KH in its broader multiverse) but that the names for these things (l’Cie etc) may not be exactly the same. This mythology was supposed to be central to FF versus XIII.
I see. I wonder if Kairi's focus was to get captured by Xehanort and then die. If so she mastered that focus beautifully.
 

*TwilightNight*

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I don't think it means anything. Xion broke down to the biological processes of her vessel which was created by weaving a sample of Sora's memories. Fans tend to call the black haired Kairi Xion's "true/real form" but technically that form itself is an illusion and mirror of the memories Xion was tapping into through draining Roxas. The only reason why she kept that form is because she perceived herself in that form and the heart she grew identified with that.

As for Kairi, well, it's either she dissolves into plasma/pneuma, or KH goes M+ and we see her slashed diagonally into an irreversible blood spilled end.

And Sora, there might be lore there due to FFXIII and crystallization, but considering we know nothing yet about Yozora or the reason why Sora was crystalized in the first place, we're just going to be giving headcanons and theories here.
 

SweetYetSalty

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Fans tend to call the black haired Kairi Xion's "true/real form" but technically that form itself is an illusion and mirror of the memories Xion was tapping into through draining Roxas. The only reason why she kept that form is because she perceived herself in that form and the heart she grew identified with that.
I'm not so sure that is the case. If she perceives that form as hers and her heart grew to identify it then it makes it her "true form" doesn't it? She's not a faceless doll walking around, she gained a identity as shown when by herself she's normal no matter what. It's why no matter what she looked like she still had the same voice. It's because of her incomplete/glitchy nature not everyone saw the same thing. It's why that issue no longer exist in KH3 as she's officially goth Kairi.
 

Darkness Call

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As for Kairi, well, it's either she dissolves into plasma/pneuma, or KH goes M+ and we see her slashed diagonally into an irreversible blood spilled end.
LOL that second part about going M+ is hilarious, yes it was totally blood just 4kids censored it into crystal like shards or blue plasma goop
 

Grey Skies

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Maybe it has to do with the proportion of light to darkness in someone's hear that determines whether they fade away into darkness or turn to crystal and vanish. Aside from that it could just be that certain people go out in different ways according to who they are and what kind of damage did them in. Maybe princesses of heart crystalize, and Xion was just similar enough to Kairi to count as one in some capacity.

It could also actually be ice, which does fit in with the Kairi-Naminé-Xion names being themed after the ocean. The 'kai' means ocean, the 'nami' means wave, and 'shio' means salt, so maybe it's just a pun about their names being based on (salt)water.

I think Nomura might throw in an explanation at some point considering it wasn't just a fluke with this happening only to Xion.
 

*TwilightNight*

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I'm not so sure that is the case. If she perceives that form as hers and her heart grew to identify it then it makes it her "true form" doesn't it? She's not a faceless doll walking around, she gained a identity as shown when by herself she's normal no matter what. It's why no matter what she looked like she still had the same voice. It's because of her incomplete/glitchy nature not everyone saw the same thing. It's why that issue no longer exist in KH3 as she's officially goth Kairi.
A true form to her, but it's not a true form in terms of biological construct. Any appearance Xion has is based on the memories that make up her body, so it'll always be an illusion, a reflection, depending on the connections concerning Sora's memories. The only reason why she even has a Kairi version is because she was draining Sora's memories of Kairi through Roxas since they were Sora's strongest.

Being referred to as Sora's replica, if she was absorbing all of his memories, which was turning out to be the case nearing the end and it's why she began taking his appearance (even to Roxas, who always saw her as a black haired Kairi), it's safe to say that if things panned out how they were going (Xemnas' way), she would be full on KH1 Sora. Still having her voice doesn't change much because she wasn't at 100%. The novels, if you take that as legitimate info, says Riku Replica was also made the same way with data and memories. And we know what his physical appearance looked like permanently.
 
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SweetYetSalty

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A true form to her, but it's not a true form in terms of biological construct. Any appearance Xion has is based on the memories that make up her body, so it'll always be an illusion, a reflection, depending on the connections concerning Sora's memories. The only reason why she even has a Kairi version is because she was draining Sora's memories of Kairi through Roxas since they were Sora's strongest.

Being referred to as Sora's replica, if she was absorbing all of his memories, which was turning out to be the case nearing the end and it's why she began taking his appearance (even to Roxas, who always saw her as a black haired Kairi), it's safe to say that if things panned out how they were going (Xemnas' way), she would be full on KH1 Sora. Still having her voice doesn't change much because she wasn't at 100%. The novels, if you take that as legitimate info, says Riku Replica was also made the same way with data and memories. And we know what his physical appearance looked like permanently.
I agree with you on the biological part, but the illusion one still has holes in it. Yes, her appearance is borrowed/stolen from Kairi from memory draining Sora, but like you said that's the identity she goes by. If it was a illusion it would have dropped upon death, because the Sora one did. Why did she revert back to goth Kairi and not a faceless doll? Likewise we see her in Re:Coded and DDD and it's the black haired Kairi not her faceless doll. She doesn't have a body then so we should see her true form right? When Dark Riku got ripped from his body we saw the empty faceless vessel but we also saw Dark Riku's heart/soul being taken out and floating like a ghost and it looked just Riku, because that's what he identifies with. I guess what I'm trying to ask is why these forms they've taken should be considered illusions, when they grew their own hearts/identities and these appearances reflect what is in their hearts?
 

*TwilightNight*

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I agree with you on the biological part, but the illusion one still has holes in it. Yes, her appearance is borrowed/stolen from Kairi from memory draining Sora, but like you said that's the identity she goes by. If it was a illusion it would have dropped upon death, because the Sora one did. Why did she revert back to goth Kairi and not a faceless doll? Likewise we see her in Re:Coded and DDD and it's the black haired Kairi not her faceless doll. She doesn't have a body then so we should see her true form right? When Dark Riku got ripped from his body we saw the empty faceless vessel but we also saw Dark Riku's heart/soul being taken out and floating like a ghost and it looked just Riku, because that's what he identifies with. I guess what I'm trying to ask is why these forms they've taken should be considered illusions, when they grew their own hearts/identities and these appearances reflect what is in their hearts?
The Sora one dropped because the amount of memories Xion absorbed about him were leaving her, rendering her slowly back to square one since now she's becoming incomplete through disintegration. You agreed on the biological aspect, so Xion's actual body is a sexless replica or a replica created with the data/memories of a guy (Sora). Everything else are illusions based on the guy's memories in her physical make up.

By any other game after, Xion has the black haired Kairi look because that's what she identified with and that's what her friends remember her as, she had her own Heart. But it doesn't change the fact that the Kairi form was an illusion in the first place.
 

SweetYetSalty

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The Sora one dropped because the amount of memories Xion absorbed about him were leaving her, rendering her slowly back to square one since now she's becoming incomplete through disintegration. You agreed on the biological aspect, so Xion's actual body is a sexless replica or a replica created with the data/memories of a guy (Sora). Everything else are illusions based on the guy's memories in her physical make up.

By any other game after, Xion has the black haired Kairi look because that's what she identified with and that's what her friends remember her as, she had her own Heart. But it doesn't change the fact that the Kairi form was an illusion in the first place.
All the Replica's bodies are genderless/sexless when they are blank. It's why Namine can go into Repliku's vessel and not be considered to have had a sex change for it. That doesn't make Xion genderless she's clearly a girl.

The Kairi form wasn't a illusion though. It was burrowed from Sora's memories and if that is what her heart based it's appearance on then doesn't that make it her true form? The heart and the vessel are two different things, KH hammers this home hence why Heartless and Nobodies are a thing. Again that is why Xion looks like goth Kairi even when out of her body in both heart and memories. Before she had a identity she was just a husk that couldn't talk and just followed orders, not even a real person. Once she formed a friendship and a identity that became her and is why whenever someone befriended her they would see her true form that her heart had selected. Xion herself does not control what she looks like so no matter what she perceived as herself if her true form was a faceless doll that is what she would appear as even if someone formed a bond with her like Roxas and Axel. The Kairi face she burrowed but it's not a illusion. Everything shown about her contradicts the theory that her dark Kairi appearance isn't her real true form when it's that form she always reverts back to. The heart is what ultimately makes the identity in Kingdom Hearts not biological stuff.
 
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*TwilightNight*

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All the Replica's bodies are genderless/sexless when they are blank. It's why Namine can go into Repliku's vessel and not be considered to have had a sex change for it. That doesn't make Xion genderless she's clearly a girl.

The Kairi form wasn't a illusion though. It was burrowed from Sora's memories and if that is what her heart based it's appearance on then doesn't that make it her true form? The heart and the vessel are two different things, KH hammers this home hence why Heartless and Nobodies are a thing. Again that is why Xion looks like goth Kairi even when out of her body in both heart and memories. Before she had a identity she was just a husk that couldn't talk and just followed orders, not even a real person. Once she formed a friendship and a identity that became her and is why whenever someone befriended her they would see her true form that her heart had selected. Xion herself does not control what she looks like so no matter what she perceived as herself if her true form was a faceless doll that is what she would appear as even if someone formed a bond with her like Roxas and Axel. The Kairi face she burrowed but it's not a illusion. Everything shown about her contradicts the theory that her dark Kairi appearance isn't her real true form when it's that form she always reverts back to. The heart is what ultimately makes the identity in Kingdom Hearts not biological stuff.
No, it doesn't make it her "true form" because the entire biology of her existence doesn't allow that. The audience legitimately saw Xion break down to the core basis of her construct - memories. Sora's memories specifically. Xion dissolved into crystallization (physical representation of memories) and as they broke apart they were rising up to return to the person they belonged to. This means that there was never a "true form". All of them were illusions reflecting the memories; the memories Xion was absorbing and the memories of others. This includes black haired Kairi. Physically, she would have been a blank or fully looked like KH1 Sora if not incomplete. The same way Riku Replica looked like Riku.

Now, can we refer the black haired Kairi as her real or true self? Sure. That's the illusion she chose to identify with. Her real or true form though? Eh.
 

SweetYetSalty

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No, it doesn't make it her "true form" because the entire biology of her existence doesn't allow that. The audience legitimately saw Xion break down to the core basis of her construct - memories. Sora's memories specifically. Xion dissolved into crystallization (physical representation of memories) and as they broke apart they were rising up to return to the person they belonged to. This means that there was never a "true form". All of them were illusions reflecting the memories; the memories Xion was absorbing and the memories of others. This includes black haired Kairi. Physically, she would have been a blank or fully looked like KH1 Sora if not incomplete. The same way Riku Replica looked like Riku.

Now, can we refer the black haired Kairi as her real or true self? Sure. That's the illusion she chose to identify with. Her real or true form though? Eh.
Yes, I saw the crystallization. It doesn't change any of the points I brought up about the heart and the vessel being different things and the heart determining oneself in this franchise. Doesn't matter what the character was made of. If black haired Kairi isn't her true self and her true self is KH1 Sora then that is what she would have appeared as in Coded, DDD, and KH3, and it wasn't it was goth Kairi. We can debate this forever but at the end of the day Xion's perfected form as shown in the end of KH3 is the goth Kairi, because that was who she was and the being that returned to Sora. She doesn't change into anyone anymore and even has her own face in factory mode now. The memories that make up Xion are like her guts. The vessel that held her was unstable but the person who she became that formed the heart was the goth Kairi. Her true form was never KH1 Sora which is why Xemnas considered her a failure as a Sora Replica. The reason she was morphing into Sora was because the memories were leaking into her but she formed her own memories, heart, and identity. And even after turning into Sora she still retained her own personality from her goth Kairi persona so that is her true form.
 
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